Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[somequestions]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
6) Do you think he has killed before?
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
10) Does the killer have a
job that involves travel?
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?

1. I think since crossing the creek was for privacy that he re-crossed the creek after he was finished committing the crime and walked directly south to the road that leads back to the meat factory.
2. It seems unlikely as he has not been caught yet.
3. No, I think it is unlikely because that assumes the sketches are a big help and I do not think they are helping. I do not think anyone knows who the killer is except for the killer. But someday Liberty German's video may help jog someone's memory.
4. Absolutely not if he is a truck driver, in my opinion.
5. Profiler John Douglas said it best: "You just don't wake up one morning and decide to commit double homicide." I think he has probably killed before and the fact that two girls were taken in Evansdale, Iowa is concerning in that regard.
6. Refer to answer 5.
7. No, I do not think he knew them or else at some point in the recording I think Libby would have said his name to help police.
8. I do not believe he is local to Delphi so no. In terms of his own community, that is speculation that does not matter to me. Killers comes from all walks of life.
9. I think he travels a lot like a truck driver and has gotten to know hiking trails and forest preserves well.
10. Yes
11. No
12. No

 

[MistyWaters]

There MUST be the technology available because in 1993 In Liverpool, England when 2, year old James Bulger was kidnapped by two 10 year old boys Thompson and Venebles, the CCTV then (27 years ago) was very poor quality and grainy and was unable to be used so Detectives collaborated with NASA and it was NASA that was able to make the image clearer, sufficient for release to the public and for the boys to be identified from the clearer images on the CCTV. And technology has moved at such a fast pace since then that it’s hard to believe that this image cannot be clearer. MOO

There’s a video of an LE interview somewhere, early on, iirc with Sgt Riley and the question was put to him regarding the clarity of the photo. His response (my wording), both NASA and Disney had assisted the FBI in perfecting the images from the video as best as possible.

The other factor probably limiting a clear facial image is the killer is looking downward.

 

[jamiek1963]

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
- Back across the creek walking back towards the meet factory. I believe he is or was affiliated with the meat packing co. at somepoint.
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
- No. There is no evidence of a second person AND it's almost impossible for 2 people not to slip up and talk about the crime.
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
- No. I think this person has gone undetected for a long time committing lesser crimes. Probably along the lines of being a peeping tom? Maybe he attempted to rape a woman and couldn't control an adult.
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
- Not local but familiar with the area such as a truck driver. Someone who has passed through on a route.
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
- Not yet but I think it is the direction he is headed in.
6) Do you think he has killed before?
- No. I think he built up to these murders. I think Liberty presented too much of a challenge for him and was the first to die.
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
- No. I think it was he was waiting for the right opportunity. I think he had staked out the area before and the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
- No.
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
No.
10) Does the killer have a job that involves travel?
- Yes. I think this person could be an over the road trucker.
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
No. I think if the person was in law enforcement the one sentence we have heard " down the hill" would have been said with authority.
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?
No. I think he left the area.

 

[ab01]

There’s a video of an LE interview somewhere, early on, iirc with Sgt Riley and the question was put to him regarding the clarity of the photo. His response (my wording), both NASA and Disney had assisted the FBI in perfecting the images from the video as best as possible.

The other factor probably limiting a clear facial image is the killer is looking downward.

You know honestly, I have always wondered if LE capabilities of nasa etc are limited by what would be admissible in court? Say they use pixel replication, shadowing enhancement etc etc and release it to the public. Would that be admissible? Seems to me they may have some images that have been enhanced to the point that they can't release them to the public bc they aren't 100 percent reliable but may give them some clearer direction in their investigation. I'm not sure I'm totally convinced that we have seen the most enhanced images. Have we seen the most enhanced images that can be proven in a court of law? Without a doubt jmo

 

[rosesfromangels]

I’m sorry, I’m unable to log into FB because I’m not a member. But here’s an aerial video from RTV6 taken from a helicopter. I’ve watched it several times however have never noticed any water search activity possibly related to clothing. I’ve always presumed the river search was for cellphones or some type of weapon because in one of the frames iirc one of the officers is holding what might be a metal detector.

A question I have asked myself while watching it - how likely would a person up in a helicopter be able to conclusively identify “girls clothing” sighted in the river?

This is enormously helpful in providing context and perspective.
While watching this, the word *hunter* just kept replaying in my mind over and over. Is any of that area designated for hunting at certain times of the year to thin the deer population?

You’d have to be in decent shape to move through that thick brush

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[ab01]

This is enormously helpful in providing context and perspective.
While watching this, the word *hunter* just kept replaying in my mind over and over. Is any of that area designated for hunting at certain times of the year to thin the deer population?

You’d have to be in decent shape to move through that thick brush

amateur opinion and speculation

There wouldn't be deer hunting at that time of year unless it was via a personal property owner tag to protect agricultural etc.ETA Reduction zone deer hunting ends January 31st. The only hunting that I can find for that time of yr would be Rabbit. Also there would not be thick brush at that time of yr in Indiana. jmo
http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/hunting-regulations/

 

[Ozoner]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
6) Do you think he has killed before?
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
10) Does the killer have a
job that involves travel?
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?

1. I think he was parked at the abandoned social services building, and I think he walked from the murder site back to his car. I think he stayed off the beaten path as much as he could, but I think he used the Hoosier Heartland Highway to cross Deer Creek.
2. No, I don't think he told anyone
3. No, I don't think anyone close to him suspects. I think he has a knack for surrounding himself with the type of people who are oblivious to what he really is.
4. I think he lived within 125 miles at the time of the murders—no farther than Gary—and probably within 25 miles. I doubt he's moved away.
5. I think he's a serial killer or budding serial killer. Dennis Rader's first attack involved four murders, so I can't rule out the possibility that Abby and Libby were his first victims. I think his motivations were the motivations of a serial killer.
6. I think he had most likely killed before and probably killed Lyric Cook and Lizzie Collins.
7. No, I am certain they were unknown to each other before that afternoon.
8. I think he's a nobody in his community—a job holder, but not an important person
9. No, I don't think he's homeless.
10. No, I don't think he travels for work. I think he travels to hunt for victims.
11. He may have a position where he gets to exert power over people in a minimal way, like a school security guard who get to intimidate students or a tow truck driver who gets to be the people have to cooperate with even if he's rude and condescending.
12. No, I don't think was involved in the search for the girls.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I’ve often wondered how any clothing, particularly something lightweight such as undergarments, would’ve been found just floating in a creek under the bridge so close by almost one entire day later. Why wouldn’t the current of the creek have moved it downriver for miles by then? I don’t know the answer but that scenario seems a bit unusual IMO.

The largest debris and greatest amount of debris is smack underneath the bridge on the northeast corner. Looking straight down it is the most prominent thing seen from the foot of the bridge. I believe I depicted that in either the first or second video I filmed.

Everything closer to the bodies is more minimal. Given the depth of water that day I could see how an item of clothing could escape all the way to the bridge area before being captured.

How it was missed entirely the first afternoon, that I have no idea.

There aren't many amusing aspects to this case. The claims of how many people were there that day prior to the search is a blatant exception. Cut it in half and I'll wager big on the under. There are no conventions on these trails. They are empty. All you have to do is acknowledge the crime itself and it is crystal how empty they are. Bridge Guy is not going to risk a crime of this nature at a spot where locals of all ages parade back and forth and are arriving all the time. Just the opposite. Once he sees two girls he knows he has little risk simply because the likelihood of someone else showing up in the near future is next to nothing.

I realize this is an argument I can't win. Everyone prefers the fanciful anecdotal versions. I prefer the real world. The only way to win as a gambler is to ignore all the subjective malarkey and constant influx of new details. Big picture focus.

BTW, there are preview clips from the John Walsh episode. Somehow they screwed up the drop off location, saying that Abby and Libby were last seen at Freedom Bridge. There are several short clips of the segment. The footage on the bridge is very effective and should grab attention of people unaware of this case. Scroll down from this link:

Celebrity crime-fighter John Walsh spotlights Delphi teen girls' homicides on TV show

 

[distracted]

The thing you have to remember about profilers is that they are giving you their opinion based on years of experience studying crimes. I thought the profiler on the Down the Hill podcast came off as very intelligent. She simply was stating what she thinks based on her years of experience studying and probably talking to various criminals.

I think about the only part I disagreed with was when she said he planned the crime. What she may have meant is that he planned the crime if the right opportunity presented itself. So basically he was familiar enough to know the area could be used to force two girls off the trail to some desolate area away from the bridge so he could do what he wanted to do. But I would be very surprised if he knew he was on someone's private property.

I do not think it is a stretch to guess that the individual who committed this crime probably has visited numerous trails, forest preserves, etc. But I think, in my opinion, that just because he may know about the Monon High Bridge trail does not mean he has to be from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area.

BBM

This is the point that makes me believe it's a SK and that it could possibly be related to Lyric and Elizabeth. If the person who killed L&E sought to kill again, IMO he would leave the Evansdale area but not go too far.

 

[distracted]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
6) Do you think he has killed before?
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
10) Does the killer have a
job that involves travel?
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?

1) Walked to a vehicle parked nearby and escaped.
2) No.
3) Yes, but not with certainty.
4) Is familiar with the area but not local.
5) I suspect.
6) I suspect.
7) I don't know.
8) No.
9) No.
10) Maybe.
11) Yes.
12) No.

 

[Charlot123]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
6) Do you think he has killed before?
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
10) Does the killer have a
job that involves travel?
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?

1) I don’t think he needed to leave the area. He either stayed in the shack, till evening, or went to own/someone’s home. I think he could just virtually retrace his steps back, up the hill, or somewhere else. On RL’s property alone there was enough place to hide, I think.

2) I don’t think he told anyone

3) Yes, I think someone 100% knows

4) I think he is local enough, maybe living in a neighboring town.

5) no

6) yes

7) as I assume he is local, the answer is, yes

8) I think he is high-functioning. I don’t know of his reputation in the commmunity, but suspect it is not stellar

9) no

10) in a sense of being a truck driver - no. It a sense of doing a job that could allow him to invent travels for himself - yes

11) maybe, but it is not “Doug Carter’s” LÊ - type. Could be like one of the dudes who was recently kicked of ISP.

12) he maybe have showed up, and disappeared later. Not super proactive.

 

[PhoebeTries]

Every now and then I take a step back from current cases and come back to this one. I have been listening to the Down The Hill podcast and it's hitting me all over again. Praying for these girls and the whole community.

 

[Inali]

1) Not my original idea, and I can't remember where I read or heard it, but my thought is BG spotted the girls on the north side of the bridge, followed them to the south side and went down the hill. Forced the girls across the creek and killed them. BG then left the scene, up the hill to the cemetery and then to the north along the tree line (out of sight) and the across the Freedom Bridge, then walked down the RR back into Delphi.

2) No

3) Yes, without question.

4) Yes and he still has connections to Delphi.

5) no

6) no, but probably a hunter.

7) Absolutely.

8) He is well known in the community.

9) No

10) Yes, but probably not a factor in the case.

11) Yes, but not necessarily LE - a position of great influence.

12) Probably helped out with the search on 2/14.

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, this^^^^.

I shared this story waaay upstream, but I'll share it again.

My small town was rocked by two murders in the 1970's. The perp, who was eventually apprehended, tried and found guilty, repaired agricultural machinery.

He traveled through three states on a regular basis. Kind of like a swing shift.

JMVHO.

Being from a not very agricultural area I'm just curious, would that type of thing being going on during the Winter months?

 

[ab01]

Being from a not very agricultural area I'm just curious, would that type of thing being going on during the Winter months?

Not as much in my opinion. Personally during winter months we tend to send our stuff to the shop for our actual equipment such as tractors, combine, planter etc maintenance. Small repairs we do ourselves in our own shop. Most of our tech visits happen when we are planting or harvesting and we need something figured out as fast as possible. Now we do often have grain handling techs come out during the winter months for various reasons when we are hauling out grain from our bins. A grain leg motor may break, pit auger problem, diverter on one of the bin pipes gets stuck etc. Now we have a fairly large operation, with our own Dryer, and a large amount of storage. Smaller operations generally don't have the ability to store a large amount of grain so they haul most of theirs to the local grain cooperative as soon as they harvest it in the fall. Now those that have livestock/grain would be using grain handling operations yr round as they would constantly be moving grain to feed their livestock etc. Regardless any of these techs, salesmen etc would probably know the area well etc. I'm just not sure we have enough information regarding this case to make a working theory weather one could be involved from that profession. They would probably be just as likely to be involved and know the area as well as many other individuals who work various trades in the general area JMO

ETA I think it would be a very deep rabbit hole to dive down to try to find a suspect merely based on their occupation with what little information that is known at this point.

 

[Yemelyan]

I’m sorry, I’m unable to log into FB because I’m not a member. But here’s an aerial video from RTV6 taken from a helicopter. I’ve watched it several times however have never noticed any water search activity possibly related to clothing. I’ve always presumed the river search was for cellphones or some type of weapon because in one of the frames iirc one of the officers is holding what might be a metal detector.

A question I have asked myself while watching it - how likely would a person up in a helicopter be able to conclusively identify “girls clothing” sighted in the river?

The Pharos Tribune photographer was on the ground photographing searchers, not in the helicopter. So though his report is to be taken with a grain of salt, he apparently was close enough to make a determination of the type of clothing in the river.

 

[sunshineray]

This is enormously helpful in providing context and perspective.
While watching this, the word *hunter* just kept replaying in my mind over and over. Is any of that area designated for hunting at certain times of the year to thin the deer population?

You’d have to be in decent shape to move through that thick brush

amateur opinion and speculation

Being it's a public trail system I would think not.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Being it's a public trail system I would think not.

Okay. Another question. Are there annual gatherings at that bridge? Organized hikes, bird watching groups and the like?

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[curiousgene]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
6) Do you think he has killed before?
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
10) Does the killer have a
job that involves travel?
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?

1. After the crime, he may have walked up the private property/RL property and made his escape. My sense of direction, unfortunately, is awfully limited so I will not be able to elaborate more on this.
2. No.
3. If BG is married then I think his wife knows he is the killer.
4. He may have spent a significant part of his childhood in Delphi or neighbouring area. He could be living in the neighbouring towns of Delphi.
5. Possibly yes.
6. Yes.
7. No.
8. He may not necessarily be someone well known but could be a close relative of a well known and respected individual of the community.
9. I think he lives with his family and has a job.
10. Not necessarily he could be working shift jobs or had the day off that day.
11. No.
12. No.

 

[Charlot123]

Not as much in my opinion. Personally during winter months we tend to send our stuff to the shop for our actual equipment such as tractors, combine, planter etc maintenance. Small repairs we do ourselves in our own shop. Most of our tech visits happen when we are planting or harvesting and we need something figured out as fast as possible. Now we do often have grain handling techs come out during the winter months for various reasons when we are hauling out grain from our bins. A grain leg motor may break, pit auger problem, diverter on one of the bin pipes gets stuck etc. Now we have a fairly large operation, with our own Dryer, and a large amount of storage. Smaller operations generally don't have the ability to store a large amount of grain so they haul most of theirs to the local grain cooperative as soon as they harvest it in the fall. Now those that have livestock/grain would be using grain handling operations yr round as they would constantly be moving grain to feed their livestock etc. Regardless any of these techs, salesmen etc would probably know the area well etc. I'm just not sure we have enough information regarding this case to make a working theory weather one could be involved from that profession. They would probably be just as likely to be involved and know the area as well as many other individuals who work various trades in the general area JMO

ETA I think it would be a very deep rabbit hole to dive down to try to find a suspect merely based on their occupation with what little information that is known at this point.

Not necessarily agricultural machinery, but one of Agatha Christie’s types who are so close you can hear them, but don’t notice them.

I remember the mailman and the local constable.

And the real SK in Australia- the Telstra driver, the so-called “Claremont killer”.

So we can make a list (I would add avid photographers to it because the camera obscures one’s face) of the people who are “around, but not noticeable”.

Is the BG from that group? I don’t know, but it is logical.

Another group these days - people who sell you cellphones or computers. There are quite a few outlets around, and the people working there are nice, but I shall never remember their faces because I look at their goods.

Any profession in which the vendor has to look at you and persuade you to buy the stuff (as it is expensive), like cars or jewelry, or even clothes, I shall remember better.

I’d say if there is a big warehouse-type store, like Costco or BJ club, or even farmers technology sold in a warehouse...these workers would be constantly around, yet invisible.

ETA: as everyone thinks he is a hunter and a fisherman, I wonder if he has a hunter’s/fisherman’s store, or even a gun shop. Nothing against guns, I merely think he is a gun/knives collector, and a store allows you to keep your collection out of the house, and make money on what you collect.