Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[Falling Down]

Great post overall. I quoted it only partially, the aspect that stood out to me.

I don't exclude Bridge Guy from being local. But I don't view it as necessity or anything close to necessity.

If Bridge Guy is committing a crime like this in a well traveled building, and one with video surveillance, then the local knowledge requirement is extraordinary. He has to know which room he can take them, one that will be accessible and vacant, along with remaining vacant long enough for him to escape. He has to combine that ideal room with camera avoidance. He has to know the foot traffic pattern and timing. And so forth.

What the heck does he have to know at Monon High? Nobody else will be here. That's about it. He's picked that trail because of how low traveled it is. Now where do I take the victims? Up here on the same level as the bridge? Not ideal. There are two homes not far away. This could be messy and noisy. And if I leave the bodies up here anyone who searches for the girls will no doubt find them quickly, perhaps before I'm fully long gone. Okay, how about down the hill from the bridge and on the same side of the creek? The gravel access road cuts through down there. The tree cover is very thin. This is February, after all. Certainly I can do better than this. But I can't risk a long march amidst captivity. Too many things can go wrong, like if I walk them back under the bridge. It needs to be fairly close yet isolated, and visible from as few areas as possible.

IMO, that is the aspect people are missing. It wasn't as if Bridge Guy identified the ideal concealed location amidst hundreds of possibilities. He had only a handful of logical choices, and picked the best one. That wouldn't have taken long at all to figure out.

BTW, I agree with Falling Down that using the gravel access road and then maneuvering back up to the bridge would have been asking too much of Bridge Guy. He would have been waiting down there all day or all week for a victim(s). Plus he wouldn't have had a clear indication of what they looked like in terms of age, etc. Then maneuvering back up to the bridge would have been a chore, especially to the north side. You'd have to cross the creek to emerge over there. Bridge Guy already would have looked wet in Libby's video.

Also, locals wouldn't know a darn thing about that area across the creek where the bodies were found. I stood right there in the middle of the creek bed and couldn't see anything. I guarantee prior to these murders virtually nobody had been there in years. You know there's a slope of some type. That's about it.

I hope all the "likes" to that post and the intimate knowledge supposedly required weren't liking the notion that the intimate knowledge was held by the property owner. That is a particularly pathetic recent theme on YouTube and elsewhere. Talk about flunking probability. Those YouTubers have zero credibility. They sucker gullible types.

That and he had to have known other stuff about the general area, details a killer would want to know about beforehand.

One big one in this day and age are surveillance cameras. I'm sure many here are aware of some efforts by folks to figure out what the Andersons complex has for cameras, but there are other properties along C.R. 300 and even one business if memory serves. Then there are the trails...

When I first saw the screen grabs of Bridge Guy (BG), I figured they had to be from a deer/trail cam on the SE end of the bridge, off the bridge on a trail on private property. Then the bombshell hit, they were from a video on Libby's phone.

This guy had to know these things, and yes people do hunt and fish along there, I had pictured deer cams in those woods and it turns out there weren't any. Granted, it wasn't shotgun season for deer, but I'd expected trail cams, yet I understand why there wouldn't be any before the murders.

Bridge Guy had to have known about the lack of surveillance, I'm convinced of it and for me adds a little more creep factor to the case. Looking for trail cams, and eliminating them as a variable or factor or whatever, would have taken some time and even patience. Which means he'd been there before.

JMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

That and he had to have known other stuff about the general area, details a killer would want to know about beforehand.

One big one in this day and age are surveillance cameras. I'm sure many here are aware of some efforts by folks to figure out what the Andersons complex has for cameras, but there are other properties along C.R. 300 and even one business if memory serves. Then there are the trails...

When I first saw the screen grabs of Bridge Guy (BG), I figured they had to be from a deer/trail cam on the SE end of the bridge, off the bridge on a trail on private property. Then the bombshell hit, they were from a video on Libby's phone.

This guy had to know these things, and yes people do hunt and fish along there, I had pictured deer cams in those woods and it turns out there weren't any. Granted, it wasn't shotgun season for deer, but I'd expected trail cams, yet I understand why there wouldn't be any before the murders.

Bridge Guy had to have known about the lack of surveillance, I'm convinced of it and for me adds a little more creep factor to the case. Looking for trail cams, and eliminating them as a variable or factor or whatever, would have taken some time and even patience. Which means he'd been there before.

JMO

You are making a very interesting point. What if we were able to review those trail cams/deer cams for someone who seemed to be looking for something/them? Maybe the footage is long gone. Interesting thought tho...

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[ab01]

You are making a very interesting point. What if we were able to review those trail cams/deer cams for someone who seemed to be looking for something/them? Maybe the footage is long gone. Interesting thought tho...

amateur opinion and speculation

I'm sure LE scoured that area for any and all potential trail cams and home/business security footage from in and around the time in question.

At this point I think its safe to say that no other video of BG exists

 

[carbuff]

I think you might be conflating MN with South Dakota, the gal found along the river at the boat launch. That's another weird case, and one where we know very little, so far as the CS is concerned. Then again, she was attacked and then she drowned, so i don't think they have much.

I just don't think there's anything that's happened in the last 20 years in OH, IN, KY, MI, and IL that has details similar to the Delphi case. One huge detail is this guy was on foot, walking across a considerable distance on foot, no less. I'm picturing someone who has stalked and scouted places with similar characteristics as the Delphi case.

That said, I find it surprising, as in I expected to find cases here on WS or in online searches which had similarities. I've yet to find one case that I think might be related, as in a slam-dunk, and nobody here on WS has come up with anything, which is both surprising and disappointing at the same time.

I think the boat launch case along the river in SD most closely resembles Delphi, but that's a bit of a stretch considering the distance between the two areas.

Good post carbuff.

I really do think BG is a bit of a Daylight Phantom.

JMO

You're right, South Dakota. Brain fart.

I also expected to find many more potential cases than I did. With not a lot of details in the Delphi case, it seemed likely that there'd be a lot of cases that couldn't be ruled in or out.

The woman at the boat launch, who seems to have been alive but left for dead, did make me wonder whether the Delphi murders were a case of rape that got out of control and resulted in murder.

I'm looking east, into PA, and south across the Ohio River now. Nothing so far.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Another frightening thing about this guy may be that he doesn't have a particular M.O. when it comes to the types of victims that you can easily find a link to....if he is a SK.

Maybe he started out by targeting homeless people or prostitutes in the past and successfully covered up his crimes?

Identifying a perp's DNA in those two particular situations would be a nightmare, especially if he was able to make it look like an accident, or if there was no detectable pattern to tie the crimes together or if he was able to get away without leaving DNA.

Sadly, there aren't too many people who would advocate for a further investigative push for this type of population, especially if the victims were chosen based on their level of vulnerability. Many don't have family's or loved ones who would go looking for them if they went missing, or someone who would insist on an autopsy if they turned up dead without any apparent cause of death. (Not sure if an autopsy is automatic in the latter instance.)

Could be that once he got bored of one or two types of victim, he decided to get more brazen?

Just thinking out loud....and JMO
Edited to complete a thought

 

[carbuff]

Good point.

Contrary to popular belief, there are a fair number of serial killers who have no victim preference. They go by opportunity, mostly. Or like Israel Keyes, look for a challenge and plan meticulously for months.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

DMB
Wrong thread!

 

[CCJD]

What if we were able to review those trail cams/deer cams for someone who seemed to be looking for something/them? Maybe the footage is long gone. Interesting thought tho...

amateur opinion and speculation

rsbm

Article from Feb 21, 2017

Adding the cameras to the trail is still in the planning phase, but McCain said they are working with Security Federal Savings Bank managers to set up a donation fund to raise some of the money they will need to install them. That fundraising could begin as early as Friday.

“If we would have had the right camera in the right place before this happened we would have caught a license plate or a person leaving,” said McCain.
Security concerns on Delphi trails after murders

 

[8771]

We've had many discussions on here about whether or not this killer is a serial killer. I didn't recall hearing the term "linkage blindness" until I listened to a podcast recently. Basically, it refers to LE's inability to link crimes to a single person because of insufficient or inadequate data. This article about Thomas Hargrove's 'Murder Accountability Project' or MAP mentions the problem here:
Serial Killers Should Fear This Algorithm

I know we have ISP, Carroll County Sheriff's Dept, FBI and who knows who all else on this investigation. And that probably conjures up the thought, "Oh, with so many LE like this involved there is no way they could have missed a connection to another murder." Well, I suspect it still could have been missed in spite of the very best efforts of LE here. IOW, if another jurisdiction or jurisdictions failed to report sufficient details on another crime, then LE working on the Delphi murders would not likely make the connection. Former prosecutor Ives mentioned 'calling cards' left by the killer. If another jurisdiction fails to note those in another crime in a common database, LE would not likely make the connection.

Were you listening to the Forgotten WM3, perhaps?

 

[Falling Down]

You're right, South Dakota. Brain fart.

I also expected to find many more potential cases than I did. With not a lot of details in the Delphi case, it seemed likely that there'd be a lot of cases that couldn't be ruled in or out.

The woman at the boat launch, who seems to have been alive but left for dead, did make me wonder whether the Delphi murders were a case of rape that got out of control and resulted in murder.

I'm looking east, into PA, and south across the Ohio River now. Nothing so far.

Same here;-)

There have been some weird cases of murders with bodies moved in western PA and eastern OH, the Berlin Reservoir stuff is interesting but I think a couple of them were solved in the last couple of years.

Another thing I look for are trail attacks, one in Cuyahoga Nat. Park late last year goes unsolved, description of the attacker indicates he was wearing an outfit that disguised his appearance a lot.

 

[Falling Down]

Good point.

Contrary to popular belief, there are a fair number of serial killers who have no victim preference. They go by opportunity, mostly. Or like Israel Keyes, look for a challenge and plan meticulously for months.

I think the Delphi case is similar to some of what Keyes was up to in some of his hunts. That makes it rare, trail attacks are actually fairly rare enough, if one were to look at, say, trail miles used by users on a specific trail or local network of trails vs. attacks over a period of time, say a year or three or five.

Attacks on rural trails and trails in sparsely-populated areas (like Delphi/Deer Creek Twp.), and in state and national parks, are pretty rare. The places with higher likelihoods of such cases are more densely-populated, and have more transient populations. I often wonder if this set of crimes that happened to A&L occurred in an urban area if the case would have gotten the amount of attention and coverage it has.

JMO

 

[minazoe]

the demographic and age of the girls would make this a high profile case no mater where it would occur. mOO

 

[Charlot123]

Interesting...

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/soldier-impersonates-officer-pulls-cop-over

A soldier in Indianapolis impersonating an officer

 

[rosesfromangels]

I'm sure LE scoured that area for any and all potential trail cams and home/business security footage from in and around the time in question.

At this point I think its safe to say that no other video of BG exists

You are most likely right.
I wonder if they did check the deer cams; that doesn't seem to be a natural motion for LE. I hope they did.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[rosesfromangels]

rsbm

Article from Feb 21, 2017

Adding the cameras to the trail is still in the planning phase, but McCain said they are working with Security Federal Savings Bank managers to set up a donation fund to raise some of the money they will need to install them. That fundraising could begin as early as Friday.

“If we would have had the right camera in the right place before this happened we would have caught a license plate or a person leaving,” said McCain.
Security concerns on Delphi trails after murders

Alright, so no cams on the trails; surveillance or deer cams or otherwise.
That said, I am convinced the Loser has traveled back and forth a few times to watch searches, vigils, and so forth. I think additional street/hwy cams coming in and out of town during that period need to be studied. I know it would be a monumental task, but it could be done. I just know his dumb enough to be on there coming and going a few times.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[ab01]

Alright, so no cams on the trails; surveillance or deer cams or otherwise.
That said, I am convinced the Loser has traveled back and forth a few times to watch searches, vigils, and so forth. I think additional street/hwy cams coming in and out of town during that period need to be studied. I know it would be a monumental task, but it could be done. I just know he's dumb enough to be on there coming and going a few times.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Ill counter with this

What is there to show that they haven't already done that and couldn't find a vehicle that didn't have a reason to be in the area?

Maybe that's one of the reasons they believe that BG was likely local to the general area?

Simply seeing a vehicle in the general area doesn't lead to probable cause unless they can uncover additional evidence

JMO

 

[somequestions]

I think it was probably called, not emailed. And maybe the person taking the call was tired, or something ruled him out (like to me it would be the height, and maybe I am wrong), or it was like, “hey, Fred, can you imagine who was tipped today? The fantasy these folks have!”

.

I think when they get tips in they probably put them into categories. So when the detectives working the case ask what tips came in this week, this is probably the response:

We got 50 Columbo's, 30 Sherlock Holmes, 22 Perry Mason's, 18 Matlock's, 10 Inspector Clouseau's, 8 Murder She Wrote's, 2 Magnum P.I.'s, and ohhhhhhh my personal favorite, a MacGyver.

 

[PaulaDC]

Interesting...

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/soldier-impersonates-officer-pulls-cop-over

A soldier in Indianapolis impersonating an officer

Talk about an obsession with badges. This guy seems to have one. moo

 

[ab01]

I think when they get tips in they probably put them into categories. So when the detectives working the case ask what tips came in this week, this is probably the response:

We got 50 Columbo's, 30 Sherlock Holmes, 22 Perry Mason's, 18 Matlock's, 10 Inspector Clouseau's, 8 Murder She Wrote's, 2 Magnum P.I.'s, and ohhhhhhh my personal favorite, a MacGyver.

Yah unfortunately some people in today's day and age with instant access to social media don't realize what an actual tip is.

It's not well I saw so and so on the internet and he looks just like BG, No I've never met him and don't know anything about him but my friend karen thinks so too.

Instead of:
I know so and so and he was in the area that day and he had called in sick from work that day.

Or my neighbor fits the description and he came over that day and he was acting strange and his boots were all muddy and he kinda looks like BG

 

[somequestions]

Yah unfortunately some people in today's day and age with instant access to social media don't realize what an actual tip is.

It's not well I saw so and so on the internet and he looks just like BG, No I've never met him and don't know anything about him but my friend karen thinks so too.

Instead of:
I know so and so and he was in the area that day and he had called in sick from work that day.

Or my neighbor fits the description and he came over that day and he was acting strange and his boots were all muddy and he kinda looks like BG

I have submitted at least 5 tips on this case. I definitely get the impression that police want real information regarding a tip. They do not want tips about what you think if you cannot back it up with any sort of proof or real evidence. So do you have a license plate number or name, etc.?

That is probably why they want tips that have good information and not just pictures of people that such and such thinks is the bridge guy. One thing I have heard many investigators say is that you have to stop watching t.v.

Even though I think facts are important, I still think cases get solved by a combination of evidence(facts) and subjective opinion. It is what separates one detective who does his job completely and another who does not.