Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[somequestions]

How more time would it take to forget the video, the audio and the sketches?

What if we did not have them?

If we did not, how would it go?

People would look at who was in Delphi that day, comb through all in the vicinity of the bridge, check every step, every phrase.

Internet community would cluster around Delphi and nearby cities; similar MOs would be searched for.

Give or take, LE would have to release some identifying information (e.g., handedness).

The sketches and the video give the reason not to release any additional information.

The way it would go is that LE would be completely lost like they are now, but everyone would think they are on the right path because without the Liberty German video no one would question what the police put out to the public. Timelines would be all over the place and people would probably be pointing fingers at anyone and everyone based on suspicion and sketches. With no witnesses it would take some type of accidental tip or genetic genealogy DNA or another link forensically to another crime to solve this case.

It really seems like LE is trying to act like someone who tells you that the suspect has bluish, brownish, green eyes with blondish brownish reddish dark hair so that when the suspect is eventually found they can try and find some way to explain away the sketches. The man could be old or he could be young or he could be a combination like middle-aged. He could have a hat or he may not have a hat. He may have curly hair or he may not have curly hair.

I think that at least the video was the truth. It was trying to point everyone in the right direction.

 

[somequestions]

I’ve often thought the same thing. As amazing and brave as it was for Libby to get video and audio of the killer, would it have been better for the investigation if she had not.
Or if LE had held the video in confidence but released different information to the public, would there be an arrest by now.

I cannot speak for the detectives on this case or others here on Websleuths, but I will take a case with video any day of the week over one that does not.

The Molly Bish case is the reason. A very reliable eyewitness(her mother) saw a man in a white car staring at her daughter the day before the abduction. She gave a very reliable description, but yet the man has not been found.

It was totally understandable in that case to try a sketch. Molly Bish did not have a phone to film a great suspect walking towards her.

But till this day, how can you deny that the man in the white car possibly committed the crime? You cannot. For all anyone knows Molly Bish's killer is a man who looks like the sketch who is sitting in a Florida prison for murdering his girlfriend.

This also goes to show something else. Cases are still solved by subjective opinion. I do not know how many times I have seen opinions that state that a video is useless so therefore let's not use it to solve the case. How individuals view evidence and its importance matters.

In my opinion, a video may not in itself help solve a case but it will get you closer to the truth. And I think that helps.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The way it would go is that LE would be completely lost like they are now, but everyone would think they are on the right path because without the Liberty German video no one would question what the police put out to the public. Timelines would be all over the place and people would probably be pointing fingers at anyone and everyone based on suspicion and sketches. With no witnesses it would take some type of accidental tip or genetic genealogy DNA or another link forensically to another crime to solve this case.

It really seems like LE is trying to act like someone who tells you that the suspect has bluish, brownish, green eyes with blondish brownish reddish dark hair so that when the suspect is eventually found they can try and find some way to explain away the sketches. The man could be old or he could be young or he could be a combination like middle-aged. He could have a hat or he may not have a hat. He may have curly hair or he may not have curly hair.

I think that at least the video was the truth. It was trying to point everyone in the right direction.

Libby couldn't have known, that her video wouldn't lead directly to the killer. Poor girl had no time to proof, if. Maybe, BG took the time to proof and determined (and was satisfied), the video wouldn't help to get him caught. That was only baaaad luck for the girls and unfortunately much luck for the perp. - One doesn't know atm, how helpful the video might become, when the killer is caught finally. MOO

 

[mimimarge]

Hmmm, perhaps I have made my first mistake.
If that is the case, I stand corrected. If I can find the source that stated the shoe was in a driveway, I will post it.
In the meantime, I yield my that my point is incorrect.
The point really is that Libby lost a shoe.
And that opens up questions.

Kelsi talks about the shoe and where she was when the shoe was found. This is from the Infamous Indy podcast around 18:50
2: The Delphi Murders from Infamous Indy

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

Kelsi talks about the shoe and where she was when the shoe was found. This is from the Infamous Indy podcast around 18:50
2: The Delphi Murders from Infamous Indy

Thank you! She doesn't specify where the show is, but she did talk about it! Thanks again!

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This thread is becoming rife with rumor posts and creating extra work for our Moderators in having to review and trying to determine what is known fact and what is rumor.

RUMORS ARE NOT ALLOWED.

If you can't link information to Websleuths approves sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

This is Websleuths folks. Take time to do your homework. Please don't just throw stuff out there. Before you post something make doubly sure what you are stating is FACT as we know it from MSM, LE or another approved Websleuths source.

Thank you.

 

[mimimarge]

I have always believed he was disguised. To what degree, I do not know. He was familiar with the area, so knew there would be potential witnesses along the pathways. He disguised himself to throw off potential witnesses.

Yes I agree with this. That he was seen by a witness earlier in the day without the disguise but seen with the disguise on video and other potential sightings. I don't know what kind of disguise but I always think of Lon Chaney who became the Phantom of the Opera with a paper clip and scotch tape.

 

[cujenn81]

I came across a news clip that was shared on Twitter by ABC-7 Reporter Alexis McAdams on July 19, 2017.

At the 1:16 mark, AA says the grainy images were taken from a video that Libby took over her shoulder with the front facing camera on her phone with her back to the suspect as he approached them on the bridge.

Twitter

This the first time I've heard that it was taken with the front camera, although this would certainly explain why the images aren't the best quality.

 

[Jax49]

I came across a news clip that was shared on Twitter by ABC-7 Reporter Alexis McAdams on July 19, 2017.

At the 1:16 mark, AA says the grainy images were taken from a video that Libby took over her shoulder with the front facing camera on her phone with her back to the suspect as he approached them on the bridge.

Twitter

This the first time I've heard that it was taken with the front camera, although this would certainly explain why the images aren't the best quality.

IIRC, that's the only time any reporter said that. But, AM's reporting has been stellar and it is logical so I believe her. moo

 

[Hansen]

I cannot speak for the detectives on this case or others here on Websleuths, but I will take a case with video any day of the week over one that does not.

The Molly Bish case is the reason. A very reliable eyewitness(her mother) saw a man in a white car staring at her daughter the day before the abduction. She gave a very reliable description, but yet the man has not been found.

It was totally understandable in that case to try a sketch. Molly Bish did not have a phone to film a great suspect walking towards her.

But till this day, how can you deny that the man in the white car possibly committed the crime? You cannot. For all anyone knows Molly Bish's killer is a man who looks like the sketch who is sitting in a Florida prison for murdering his girlfriend.

This also goes to show something else. Cases are still solved by subjective opinion. I do not know how many times I have seen opinions that state that a video is useless so therefore let's not use it to solve the case. How individuals view evidence and its importance matters.

In my opinion, a video may not in itself help solve a case but it will get you closer to the truth. And I think that helps.

Except we are three plus years later now and literally LE isn't any closer to solving this. I think this case needs fresh eyes and every stone needs to be unturned. Meaning a thorough vetting of local LE, judges, govt workers, teachers, professors etc in the area.

 

[Charlot123]

I have always believed he was disguised. To what degree, I do not know. He was familiar with the area, so knew there would be potential witnesses along the pathways. He disguised himself to throw off potential witnesses.

I think he has an interesting trait. There are people that still look the same, recognizable, whether with hair or bald, with the beard or not, tanned or pale.

And then, there are people who look exceptionally different whether clean-shaved or bearded, with or without mustache, hair trimmed or long. I think BG belongs to this group.

Even if you look at different frames, he looks very different. So I prefer the video. I think the video might be the closest, grainy as it is.

I was thinking of the phrase, "may look younger". There might be different ways of interpreting it. I used to think along the lines of "35, but looks 25", but then I thought, what if they mean, "may look younger, or may not". Meaning, at some times he looks his age, and at some, younger.

Why do I think he is close to 50 looking at the grainy video? His mustache looks salt-and-pepper. But what if it is a mix of dark and red hair, or dark and light? They said he had brown-red hair, maybe a mix of both? Or, maybe some parts of hair turned grey prematurely - it could be due to smoking, vitamin deficiency, vitiligo, alopecia areata, or some other illnesses. So I am looking at a younger man in a hat and chin closed by a scarf, with mustache of a mixed color, and thinking that he is older.

Now if he shaves off his mustache and beard, this will already look different. A visit to a hairdresser might make him look 100% unrecognizable. +/- 10 lbs would make his cheekbones look more prominent, or less.

There are some things he can not change. His height. Maybe the limp (hard to tell). But I can imagine how two people could describe him differently. I think he has done a lot of things to change. Maybe the people who know him IRL would always recognize him. Maybe he smells the same. But on the media, he looks different.

 

[sunshineray]

I finally found the right GH video. I'd commented earlier about thinking that BG left through the cemetery and GH saying there was a witness in the area of that road the cemetery is on to someone they saw. That part of the discussion starts around 15 minutes in.

GH actually says that with the person who told him info being who they are, (he would not name them) that he doesnt even consider the info an opinion anymore, he's convinced the killer left that way.

 

[Charlot123]

The way it would go is that LE would be completely lost like they are now, but everyone would think they are on the right path because without the Liberty German video no one would question what the police put out to the public. Timelines would be all over the place and people would probably be pointing fingers at anyone and everyone based on suspicion and sketches. With no witnesses it would take some type of accidental tip or genetic genealogy DNA or another link forensically to another crime to solve this case.

It really seems like LE is trying to act like someone who tells you that the suspect has bluish, brownish, green eyes with blondish brownish reddish dark hair so that when the suspect is eventually found they can try and find some way to explain away the sketches. The man could be old or he could be young or he could be a combination like middle-aged. He could have a hat or he may not have a hat. He may have curly hair or he may not have curly hair.

I think that at least the video was the truth. It was trying to point everyone in the right direction.

Yes, the initial grainy video. Split into frames... BG looks different (age-wise) on different frames. Strange, right? I think it is him.

 

[Charlot123]

That's exactly right, and likely why there hasn't been an arrest. It would be a very difficult thing to come to grips with, that is for sure. Still, they must.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I am thinking the same. I am thinking when he is caught, he is bringing down the whole family, and if he has kids, he is ruining the kids’ future.

The only reason the relatives are not giving him up is if the connection is not between the perp and the girls, but, say, one of his kids and one of the girls (any kind of connection, friendship, animosity, romantic ...).

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

I think he has an interesting trait. There are people that still look the same, recognizable, whether with hair or bald, with the beard or not, tanned or pale.

And then, there are people who look exceptionally different whether clean-shaved or bearded, with or without mustache, hair trimmed or long. I think BG belongs to this group.

Even if you look at different frames, he looks very different. So I prefer the video. I think the video might be the closest, grainy as it is.

I was thinking of the phrase, "may look younger". There might be different ways of interpreting it. I used to think along the lines of "35, but looks 25", but then I thought, what if they mean, "may look younger, or may not". Meaning, at some times he looks his age, and at some, younger.

Why do I think he is close to 50 looking at the grainy video? His mustache looks salt-and-pepper. But what if it is a mix of dark and red hair, or dark and light? They said he had brown-red hair, maybe a mix of both? Or, maybe some parts of hair turned grey prematurely - it could be due to smoking, vitamin deficiency, vitiligo, alopecia areata, or some other illnesses. So I am looking at a younger man in a hat and chin closed by a scarf, with mustache of a mixed color, and thinking that he is older.

Now if he shaves off his mustache and beard, this will already look different. A visit to a hairdresser might make him look 100% unrecognizable. +/- 10 lbs would make his cheekbones look more prominent, or less.

There are some things he can not change. His height. Maybe the limp (hard to tell). But I can imagine how two people could describe him differently. I think he has done a lot of things to change. Maybe the people who know him IRL would always recognize him. Maybe he smells the same. But on the media, he looks different.

You see a mustache?
And you can tell that it's salt and pepper?
You have waaay better eyes than I do!
I wish that I could see it

 

[TheVisual]

I am thinking the same. I am thinking when he is caught, he is bringing down the whole family, and if he has kids, he is ruining the kids’ future.

The only reason the relatives are not giving him up is if the connection is not between the perp and the girls, but, say, one of his kids and one of the girls (any kind of connection, friendship, animosity, romantic ...).

Yes, this!

 

[JnRyan]

Three and a half years later and we are coming to the end of Thread #125. And there was a period back there where a thread was shut down for a while. You can probably pick a dozen cases, including the Suzanne Morphew missing person case, and not have a total of 125 threads. I'm thinking when this killer is finally arrested this case will blow up Websleuths.

 

[carbuff]

I'm still around but I'm not going to be commenting much...

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm still around but I'm not going to be commenting much...

I’ve followed the case since the beginning as well but until something breaks, there’s not much to add.

Although it might seem like yesterday, hard to believe that last PC was almost a year and a half ago with no major developments or information released since then. Whether it be the photo, video or either of the sketches, 3 1/2 years on, the less likely the killer will be recognized by someone who knows who he is. I think we all tend to remember people by how they look today, not what they looked like in the past if their appearance has gradually or suddenly changed.

Sadly, Libby’s video and both the sketches are becoming redundant by the passage of time.

 

[I wonder]

I finally found the right GH video. I'd commented earlier about thinking that BG left through the cemetery and GH saying there was a witness in the area of that road the cemetery is on to someone they saw. That part of the discussion starts around 15 minutes in.

GH actually says that with the person who told him info being who they are, (he would not name them) that he doesnt even consider the info an opinion anymore, he's convinced the killer left that way.

Is this the person who subsequently moved house?