Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[stattlich1]

Wowzers! Y'all speculate darn near as much as me

As far as I know, we have no idea if the 'guys' and 'down the hill' comments are said in close time/proximity to each other, or if they are said at completely different times.

I also don't think we know if BG crossed the entire bridge, or if he passed the girls and then turned around, or even if he emerged from a hiding place underneath after they passed by.

And too, we don't know if BG had any idea he was being filmed. Maybe he did, maybe not.

Though it's most vehemently defended by some that there is/was only one killer involved in this, at this juncture, we still don't know if there was one perp, two, or even more.

As to specifics relative to the CS itself, what do we actually know as fact? Very little.

I'm sticking with my theory that BG knew the area, knew it real well. He either expected those girls that day, (had motive) or he was just there waiting, (serial killer) as he had numerous times before, for all things to line up in his favor.

But I DO think he was there, waiting. I think this low life scum parked in that cemetery, walked down the hill, ensuring the CS was clear. I think he went from there to either a tree stand, or a vantage point where he could see the trail, and maybe even the bridge, and any people walking on them.

After the murders, I think he simply walked up that hill to the cemetery, got in his car, and drove away.

I'll go out on a limb here, and I don't ALWAYS believe this, but as of today, I don't think any witnesses saw him that day.

MOO

 

[stattlich1]

I didn't weigh in on the deer discussion as I think it's a non issue. I can easily see someone using a zoom feature on a camera to check something out that's far away. If the wind is right, you'd be surprised how close you can get to deer. They are curious, but I doubt the had much, if anything at all, to do with the CS.

Now this is one of the statements I find intriguing.

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

I've brought it up before, and it still causes me to ponder.

For example. Was it DNA evidence that would logically have led to this person, or that one, but failed to point directly at one, or the other of them?

Or was it something left at the scene, that would point to this person, or that one? Say, something like a business card, that would have pointed toward a particular company, but the employees thereof all had alibis.

Or even something else, say, something tangible left at the scene, known to belong to a particular family, or business, but said item did not lead to one particular person?

MOO

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

"Old BG" especially gave myself and many others subjective authority vibes.

These subjective vibes were strengthned by the available conversation from BG. BG does not appear to engage in a preliminary conversation where he builds up confidence to give the girls an order. Rather, he appears to start with an order- as if he is accustomed to giving them and to being obeyed.

As a result, the ideas of law enforcement experience, teacher, coach, retired military (combat arms in particular), church youth minister, foreman etc have been proposed.

Going very subjective, the old BG vaguely seems to "own the space" he enters (confident stride up to the victims, but not a swagger. Then asserts control with out shouting or threats) This can also indicate a dominate personality.

I have seen retired combat NCOs, law enforcement, and well, inmates with that ability. Usually the last groups has nothing in common with the first two. All three, however, live in environments where it helps to have assertive personalities.

My initial thought about the sound/tone/pitch/frequency of his voice was that he was a school teacher, and a dad (he is definitely a dad). MOO. But I cannot tell you why these were my initial lines of thought, because I don’t even know myself. But I’m going with my gut. And my ears, I’m going with them as well. I’m definitely going with them! My ears are my special autistic gift. They are like a photographic memory but in auditory form. Eidetic I guess.
Anyway, it would have been really cool to use this practically useless gift/curse for something important but I haven’t. Except that I do know when people lie, because anything anyone has ever said to me I remember, in excruciating detail like exactly where I was, where the person was, what I was doing, what they were doing, the weather, my surroundings, background noise, EVERYTHING. I remember everything, so there is that.

 

[cujenn81]

LE should delete the sketches, go back to the clips from Libby's recording and blast the media/internet outlets with them.

That would be the equivalent of closing the barn door when the horse has already bolted — as the saying goes.

Don’t get me wrong. I think the sketches hurt more than they help... but even if LE were to toss them at this point, it’s impossible to completely wipe them from the internet and we can’t ever UNSEE them. For bad or for worse, those sketches will forever influence our perceptions and opinions of BG.

LE believes this guy is local, and so they probably thought someone would recognize him right away. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20.

OT/Side Note - I’m currently listening to the Mindhunters audiobook by John Douglas and have been taking notes about all of the different profiles discussed. I’ll be sure to report back my findings and/or thoughts when I’m done.

 

[cujenn81]

That's the interview I always think of, too. And you're right, his comment certainly doesn't rule out the phone ending up in the creek.

It does seems there was another source that talked about the phone being found on the ground, but I can't find it. However, other sources also made me reconsider it ending up in the water.

ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone
"Sgt. Holeman tells us investigators recovered more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene."
*Still pretty vague, I know.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/three-years-later-everything-we-know-about-the-delphi-murders
"Police released the images they say were taken straight from Libby’s cell phone, on Feb. 15, 2017 — the day after the girls’ bodies were found."
*Honest question: Could they have found the phone and retrieved video off of it after being submerged all night, and done it by the next day when they released the photo?

Didn't DG say the first couple times he called (3:11 and 3:15) there was no answer and after that it went directly to voicemail? Maybe that was said during the Renner interviews? Would the phone have gotten reception or stayed on under water?

You’re right. I think it rang before going to voicemail until right around 5pm that afternoon. (I know I documented this in the podcast episode notes — last two pages of the media thread.)

 

[Falling Down]

If you’re able to find the link of when BP stated the searchers saw the deer, I’m quite sure she added the deer were “high up on the ridge”. Then the searcher looked down and noticed the bodies. Indeed the river bank area is much lower in elevation than the upper ridge where the cemetery and RLs home are located. Somewhere there’s a video of RL taking a reporter to the crime scene area and indeed the lay of the land is very steep down toward the river.

So I don’t think it’s unusual at all if a deer was spotted up on the ridge. In my experience deer become very comfortable with human activity in surrounding areas frequented by people.

I've driven around the general area in question and have walked the trails. Also I've seen the news videos where RL is talking with reporters.

The bridge is around 65 feet or so above the creek, and the general countryside on that side of Deer Creek is pretty flat and level for around a half mile or so, above the gorge itself, So my guess would be the cemetery and flat area on either side of it is around 60-70 feet above the creek.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

You’re right. I think it rang before going to voicemail until right around 5pm that afternoon. (I know I documented this in the podcast episode notes — last two pages of the media thread.)

Thank you! I found it:

"Mike tries to call LG repeatedly but her phone is now going straight to voicemail. (The calls were ringing several times before going to voicemail at 4:17 pm but were going straight to voicemail by 5:00 pm.)"

So my questions are for anyone with technical knowledge of phones.

1) Could her phone have been in the water for at least an hour or two and still have stayed powered on and gotten reception enough to be pinging off the tower and ringing calls through?

2) Could video and such been easily retrieved off a phone that had been submerged overnight (not counting the cloud)?

 

[Beachlife926]

I didn't weigh in on the deer discussion as I think it's a non issue. I can easily see someone using a zoom feature on a camera to check something out that's far away. If the wind is right, you'd be surprised how close you can get to deer. They are curious, but I doubt the had much, if anything at all, to do with the CS.

Now this is one of the statements I find intriguing.

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

I've brought it up before, and it still causes me to ponder.

For example. Was it DNA evidence that would logically have led to this person, or that one, but failed to point directly at one, or the other of them?

Or was it something left at the scene, that would point to this person, or that one? Say, something like a business card, that would have pointed toward a particular company, but the employees thereof all had alibis.

Or even something else, say, something tangible left at the scene, known to belong to a particular family, or business, but said item did not lead to one particular person?

MOO

Good thoughts/questions

IMO
I wonder if there’s a tiny possibility the physical evidence contains other peoples DNA - that BG previously collected with intentions of planting it. This might explain any unexplained search warrants and pushed them harder to think it’s a local (if its local DNA)

 

[MistyWaters]

I've driven around the general area in question and have walked the trails. Also I've seen the news videos where RL is talking with reporters.

The bridge is around 65 feet or so above the creek, and the general countryside on that side of Deer Creek is pretty flat and level for around a half mile or so, above the gorge itself, So my guess would be the cemetery and flat area on either side of it is around 60-70 feet above the creek.

JMO

Thanks yes, that makes sense especially thinking about the structure of the historical bridge, built for steam locomotives in the 18900s. It’s constructed high above the river, even above treetops on the land below until the tracks eventually reached level ground and continued onward in either direction away from the gorge.

 

[somequestions]

LE should delete the sketches, go back to the clips from Libby's recording and blast the media/internet outlets with them.

Like so many cases, even years from now when a podcaster, youtuber, or websleuth comes across this case for the first time, once they do the basic background research about the case, they are going to associate the 2nd sketch with the video and will have absolutely no reason not to. I only think LE is wrong because I have been following the case for a while. But someone who is new to the case will do what most of us would do, and that is assume the information put out by LE during the course of the investigation is most likely correct. And why wouldn't they?

The ironic part is there is no way to say for certain LE is wrong about the information they put out in April 2019. It is my opinion they are wrong, but until the case gets solved, it is only an opinion.

The real lesson in Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case could be that there is a certain responsibility associated with information that gets released to the public. On the other side though I can understand why LE did what they did if their investigation was not going anywhere. But I think it would have been better to call the person in the 2nd sketch a person of interest who may or may not be involved in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. It seems like today that 2nd sketch is too closely tied to the person in Liberty German's phone video.

Even with the mistakes, though, there is a video to help make an identification. At least this case has that.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thank you! I found it:

"Mike tries to call LG repeatedly but her phone is now going straight to voicemail. (The calls were ringing several times before going to voicemail at 4:17 pm but were going straight to voicemail by 5:00 pm.)"

So my questions are for anyone with technical knowledge of phones.

1) Could her phone have been in the water for at least an hour or two and still have stayed powered on and gotten reception enough to be pinging off the tower and ringing calls through?

2) Could video and such been easily retrieved off a phone that had been submerged overnight (not counting the cloud)?

I suppose it really doesn’t matter where Libby’s cellphone was found. What’s important is that it was.

But Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce was involved in retrieving evidence from Libby’s cellphone. I’ve always wondered if their professional service was required to pull data because the cellphone wasn’t in working order when it was found.

Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce assisting in Delphi murders investigation

 

[dotr]

3-D video gives new life to Delphi murder investigation | wthr.com

''Submitting a tip
If you have any information about the case, police ask that you please send tips to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com.

Try to include the following information:

• Suspect's name
• Date of birth or approximate age
• Physical description including height, weight, hair color, eye color
• Address or location including city
• Vehicle information including year, make, model, color
• Specific reason for the tip. Why could they be the suspect?
• Motivation for the crime
• Connection to Delphi, IN''

 

[Yemelyan]

Thank you! I found it:

"Mike tries to call LG repeatedly but her phone is now going straight to voicemail. (The calls were ringing several times before going to voicemail at 4:17 pm but were going straight to voicemail by 5:00 pm.)"

So my questions are for anyone with technical knowledge of phones.

1) Could her phone have been in the water for at least an hour or two and still have stayed powered on and gotten reception enough to be pinging off the tower and ringing calls through?

2) Could video and such been easily retrieved off a phone that had been submerged overnight (not counting the cloud)?

I think it's been reported that Libby had an iPhone 6?

Apple's Clever Tech Makes the iPhone 6s Nearly Waterproof

Supposedly they will continue to be at least somewhat operational while submerged but will be less so the deeper under water they are.

 

[TL4S]

I suppose it really doesn’t matter where Libby’s cellphone was found. What’s important is that it was.

But Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce was involved in retrieving evidence from Libby’s cellphone. I’ve always wondered if their professional service was required to pull data because the cellphone wasn’t in working order when it was found.

Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce assisting in Delphi murders investigation

Thanks for the link. I wonder when the taskforce started assisting (that particular article was from April 2017).

I guess I'm curious about the phone because the still photo was released the very next day after they were found. I'm not familiar enough with the technology to know how quickly they could retrieve data directly from a damaged phone. The phone's location might not matter in the scheme of things, but it's one more detail that LE hasn't wanted to release. I've always felt BG didn't put any thought into the phone, but it might say a lot if he actively put it in the water, moved it, touched it, etc. But we just don't know...

 

[Charlot123]

Just an idea, because I never saw it discussed before.

I can't imagine the CS, but I assume that some staging is possible. This made me wonder because I thought that no one would have the time to kill and stage, within this short time span. That either killings happened elsewhere and the bodies were moved, or someone was helping.

But now I wonder, what if the place was staged before the murders? Many say that the place is not well seen from the bridge, and it could even be staged the day before. Or in the morning, since some car was parked since 12 noon. Maybe the victims were random, but not the place?

Depending on what was there, he could have even lured the girls down, to look at it.

That reverses things, time-wise. The first thing - the bodies - become the last one to be added.

I thought he had to return back at night to do the staging, but if it was pre-arranged, then he really could leave and be gone immediately after murders.

I think that this version needs to be considered because if someone has very tight alibi after the murders, but no alibi before, he still can be involved.

In short, I think LE have the idea, but someone’s alibi can't be broken, time-wise. I think that something has been incorrectly assumed because of the time.

And what if the person pre-arranges the crime scenes? Like fly catchers, but kills randomly?

 

[cujenn81]

This is my phone theory —
Libby was recording video using the phone camera when BG started to approach the girls. She surreptitiously hid the phone but kept the video rolling before he got to them. She dropped the phone somewhere between the bridge and their final destination (because I think they tried to make a run for it). BG didn’t realize that Libby dropped the phone until after the murders and didn’t have time to go back and look for it. I figure the initial call from Derrick finally ended the video but actively recording for that amount of time would’ve significantly drained her battery. The repeated incoming calls and voicemails that followed likely did the rest.

 

[sunshineray]

3-D video gives new life to Delphi murder investigation | wthr.com

''Submitting a tip
If you have any information about the case, police ask that you please send tips to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com.

Try to include the following information:

• Suspect's name
• Date of birth or approximate age
• Physical description including height, weight, hair color, eye color
• Address or location including city
• Vehicle information including year, make, model, color
• Specific reason for the tip. Why could they be the suspect?
• Motivation for the crime
• Connection to Delphi, IN''

If Abby was standing to the right side and behind Libby as Libby held her phone in her left hand while filming BG approaching, what is that image that was caught and skipped over in the video released by ISP?

I always thought it was Abby, standing to the left of Libby. After seeing this recreation, I,m totally confused.

 

[ShamelessObserver]

If BG approached all the way from the opposite side of the bridge, why didn't they just run away? They'd have had plenty of time. Also, if he was adamant he wanted to kill them it's not a good tactic to approach from the other side because they would have ample time to run off...

 

[Yemelyan]

If BG approached all the way from the opposite side of the bridge, why didn't they just run away? They'd have had plenty of time. Also, if he was adamant he wanted to kill them it's not a good tactic to approach from the other side because they would have ample time to run off...

Come on, now...it's for the same reason Molly Bish didn't run away, or Holly Piirainen, or Etan Patz, Amber Hagerman, Jaycee Dugard, the Lyon sisters, Amy Mihalejevic, April Tinsley, Jacob Wetterling, Lyric Cook and Lizzy Collins, the list of child victims abducted from public spaces and murdered goes on and on and on.

The reason these victims didn't "just run away" is that they did not know they were in grave danger until the moment was happening. Most offenders who abduct children aim for some type of either quiet coercion (a ruse to get close enough to take control) or a so-called "blitz attack" that the victim doesn't see coming.

In Libby and Abby's case, they thought a weirdo was approaching, not a killer. Libby had the apparent foresight to video a man whose presence seemed odd to them, but let's not let that fact cause us to forget that they were innocent, small town kids who had likely never been confronted with someone whose intention was to harm them in this way. Violent offenders are typically great readers of human behavior and count on the fact that most people (including children) will not run away or try to fight until it's too late. IMO.

 

[TL4S]

If BG approached all the way from the opposite side of the bridge, why didn't they just run away? They'd have had plenty of time. Also, if he was adamant he wanted to kill them it's not a good tactic to approach from the other side because they would have ample time to run off...

I agree with what @Yemelyan said above. I would also add that, imo, his tactic was to corner them. Even if they had decided to run, the creek and bridge stood between them and their way back to safety.