Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[insearchoflight]

There were witnesses so do you think that those witnesses have been asked to ID BG in a lineup? For KK and or JBC? So I’m gonna assume DNA and a witness lineup didn’t yield positive ID for these persons of interest. It’s looking like they’ve got little to work with when it comes to evidence of the perp. Shocking since it was supposedly a very bloody scene. I’ve always thought it was a sexually motivated crime as well, and if so, how no DNA? I can’t believe they have this guys image and voice and yet nothing.

 

[TL4S]

I know it's been discussed

There were witnesses so do you think that those witnesses have been asked to ID BG in a lineup? For KK and or JBC? So I’m gonna assume DNA and a witness lineup didn’t yield positive ID for these persons of interest. It’s looking like they’ve got little to work with when it comes to evidence of the perp. Shocking since it was supposedly a very bloody scene. I’ve always thought it was a sexually motivated crime as well, and if so, how no DNA? I can’t believe they have this guys image and voice and yet nothing.

I've wondered that too. I'd like to know if any witnesses have been shown photos, and if so, what they said! And which sketch?

 

[MistyWaters]

There were witnesses so do you think that those witnesses have been asked to ID BG in a lineup? For KK and or JBC? So I’m gonna assume DNA and a witness lineup didn’t yield positive ID for these persons of interest. It’s looking like they’ve got little to work with when it comes to evidence of the perp. Shocking since it was supposedly a very bloody scene. I’ve always thought it was a sexually motivated crime as well, and if so, how no DNA? I can’t believe they have this guys image and voice and yet nothing.

I don’t know how important witness identification would be considering nobody witnessed the crime taking place. Add to that five plus years have passed and also the photos of KK and JBC have been widely circulated, leading to the possibility of contamination of witness memory.

Secondly the sketch represented their recollect at the time so I think a good defense attorney would totally shred the witness’s credibility on the stand if the accused didn’t resemble the sketch because it’s questionable why their later memory would recall someone who looks different (assuming that’s the case) JMO

 

[insearchoflight]

So KK planned to meet Libby that day but she didn’t show up? Where did he plan to meet her? He showed up but she didn’t?

Sorry catching up here

 

[Ozoner]

So KK planned to meet Libby that day but she didn’t show up? Where did he plan to meet her? He showed up but she didn’t?

Sorry catching up here

It isn't known that he planned to meet her. Even if he stated that at some point, that doesn't mean it was true. I see KK as a pathological liar. I wouldn't believe a word that came out of his blubbery mouth.

 

[MichMan015]

I don’t think anything KK says can be taken as very reliable at all. Especially when it comes the murders!
Michman015

 

[Schatz]

KK didn’t say he planned to meet up with her. The AS fake social profile said he planned to meet up with her but she didn’t show. In other words, whomever was using the AS account to talk to LG’s friend said all that. I personally am inclined to believe that someone was not KAK - MOO.

 

[insearchoflight]

KK didn’t say he planned to meet up with her. The AS fake social profile said he planned to meet up with her but she didn’t show. In other words, whomever was using the AS account to talk to LG’s friend said all that. I personally am inclined to believe that someone was not KAK - MOO.

Did the account plan to meet her at the Monon High Bridge Trail?

 

[FromGermany1]

If DNA can be collected at a crime scene from blood, under the victims fingernails or from an object involved in the murder left behind LE would have a good lead, they’d know who they’re looking for. Given LEs wobbling on DNA in general, I doubt they have a full and complete sample of who they believe will match the killer. Anything else including touch DNA on clothing that may’ve only been transferred or such things as discarded items that could’ve blown in the wind or even been planted, no they can’t know and that’s definitely not enough to base a conviction on. Worst case scenario is if the murderer was also a searcher, which could explain for example the finding of a discarded cigarette butt in the area. But if somebody’s DNA was found, who claims to have never been near Delphi or the girls, that’s a great lead. But the prosecution needs more evidence than DNA alone, it’s only a starting point.

Outdoor crime scenes must be very difficult forensically, it’s not like a car or a building with doors and walls and hard flooring where the interior can be secured during examination. JMO

I wonder: IF there is DNA from the crime scene and IF they (LE) had a secret suspect, whose trash/used disposable coffee pot/cigarette butt/something like that they could have proved for DNA (because the perp's data aren't in Codis already) - then would it be enough to nail him or not?
Like you, Misty, I think, it isn't enough. There is always the alibi, which shows, whether he could have been at the MHB area or not this certain day and time in 2017. If the alibi is false, but perfect, they are lost.
What, if LE don't dare to ask thoroughly for confirmation of the secret suspect's alibi because of his status? What, if they (LE) fear to start a gigantic avalanche with it, now worse than ever considering the online pedo crime?
There are countless suspects now without a certain status, who don't have to be protected by authorities so very well. But perhaps there is one single secret suspect in this double murder, who LE can't check like all the others.
I'm worried, that it's going to continue like this with these many nasty perverts, all of whom are possible murderers, but aren't the real perpetrators this time.

 

[Schatz]

I wonder: IF there is DNA from the crime scene and IF they (LE) had a secret suspect, whose trash/used disposable coffee pot/cigarette butt/something like that they could have proved for DNA (because the perp's data aren't in Codis already) - then would it be enough to nail him or not?
Like you, Misty, I think, it isn't enough. There is always the alibi, which shows, whether he could have been at the MHB area or not this certain day and time in 2017. If the alibi is false, but perfect, they are lost.
What, if LE don't dare to ask thoroughly for confirmation of the secret suspect's alibi because of his status? What, if they (LE) fear to start a gigantic avalanche with it, now worse than ever considering the online pedo crime?
There are countless suspects now without a certain status, who don't have to be protected by authorities so very well. But perhaps there is one single secret suspect in this double murder, who LE can't check like all the others.
I'm worried, that it's going to continue like this with these many nasty perverts, all of whom are possible murderers, but aren't the real perpetrators this time.

I don’t think the FBI would care and would investigate any potential subject thoroughly. The FBI don’t have ties to the local community- they would have been sent in from a field office.

Right? Am I off here?

 

[sandy_80]

There were witnesses so do you think that those witnesses have been asked to ID BG in a lineup? For KK and or JBC? So I’m gonna assume DNA and a witness lineup didn’t yield positive ID for these persons of interest. It’s looking like they’ve got little to work with when it comes to evidence of the perp. Shocking since it was supposedly a very bloody scene. I’ve always thought it was a sexually motivated crime as well, and if so, how no DNA? I can’t believe they have this guys image and voice and yet nothing.

everything implicates the witnesses have been sidelined ever since..
don't forget we have two kinds.. the first sketch and the second...and they have been deleting info from the profile gradually
also.. how much the sketches were the work of the artist or based really on the description is a controversial topic ..this happens a lot
MY VERDICT IS .. the witnesses are of no longer importance or they dont trust them
if he was wearing a disguise , then no witness would be able to identify him as in a scarf or so on

 

[Yemelyan]

I wonder: IF there is DNA from the crime scene and IF they (LE) had a secret suspect, whose trash/used disposable coffee pot/cigarette butt/something like that they could have proved for DNA (because the perp's data aren't in Codis already) - then would it be enough to nail him or not?
Like you, Misty, I think, it isn't enough. There is always the alibi, which shows, whether he could have been at the MHB area or not this certain day and time in 2017. If the alibi is false, but perfect, they are lost.
What, if LE don't dare to ask thoroughly for confirmation of the secret suspect's alibi because of his status? What, if they (LE) fear to start a gigantic avalanche with it, now worse than ever considering the online pedo crime?
There are countless suspects now without a certain status, who don't have to be protected by authorities so very well. But perhaps there is one single secret suspect in this double murder, who LE can't check like all the others.
I'm worried, that it's going to continue like this with these many nasty perverts, all of whom are possible murderers, but aren't the real perpetrators this time.

If it was only the Delphi police department investigating, or only the Carroll County Sheriff's office, then I could see this as a possible theory, but there have been so many agencies involved in investigating this (ISP, FBI and GBI just the ones we know about) that I don't see anyone being "protected" by their status.

 

[IceIce9]

Definitely there is a higher value on first hand information. That's a given but I do know that Gray has been covering this case for a long time and he has talked directly to family members related to the case.

That is why I found it interesting that he reported hearing it from a friend of Anna’s. Wouldn’t he have heard it directly from family members since he had spoken directly to family members? JMO

 

[Marzipan]

I don’t think the FBI would care and would investigate any potential subject thoroughly. The FBI don’t have ties to the local community- they would have been sent in from a field office.

Right? Am I off here?

Yes, I think you are right (not off). But IF a suspect has hundreds of millions of dollars to use to defend, would that make it take longer to get ready to arrest and charge? Just a question based on an assumption I don’t know is true or not. I don’t think the BG perp is such a person but what if there is such a person in the whole CSAM scheme they are dealing with? Would that complicate things? IDK

 

[Cryptic]

Lets talk guns.

Now, if a hammer fired semi-automatic pistol were being used, and it was not 'charged', and there was a live round in the chamber, then one would pull the trigger back to 'charge' the gun, preparing it for firing.

IMO, IF there was a click actually heard, I'd guess it to have come from a revolver, and second to that, one of John Moses Browning's 1911 designs, or a hammer fired semi-automatic, the revolver being most likely to make a noticeable noise when charging the trigger.

I would that if a click was produced by setting the hammer, the weapon would far more likely be a revolver.

At the end of the day, semi automatic pistols with the olde fashioned hammer design have gotten relatively rare- even counting reproductions of historic designs such as clones of Browning's 1911.

I would almost say that the only people possessing such pistols would be somebody with an interest in historic fire arms either as original brand or reproductions or..... somebody who had access to "Grandpa's old pistol" from the attic.

 

[WildHuncher]

I would that if a click was produced by setting the hammer, the weapon would far more likely be a revolver.

At the end of the day, semi automatic pistols with the olde fashioned hammer design have gotten relatively rare- even counting reproductions of historic designs such as clones of Browning's 1911.

I would almost say that the only people possessing such pistols would be somebody with an interest in historic fire arms either as original brand or reproductions or..... somebody who had access to "Grandpa's old pistol" from the attic.

Right. Assuming that there IS a click on the audio, we're talking about a revolver here, used as a threat and not to kill. The actual murder weapon was a big knife, IMHO.

Even if a semi-auto has a hammer, that doesn't mean the shooter works it directly. A few cases exist. Some Beretta models have a top break feature that lets you load the chamber by hand and then thumb the hammer. That spares having to rack the slide, a thing hard for some people to do.

In most of the semi-autos with accessible hammers, the slide, not the shooter, works the hammer. You insert a loaded magazine and rack the slide. That one motion chambers a round and retracts the hammer.

You could point a classic 1911 at someone and click back the hammer as a threat, yes. IMHO you probably don't. It's not how you actually shoot it and you have to assume they won't know you're doing it wrong.

 

[MistyWaters]

If a gun was pointed at the girls, immediately following I think it would be highly likely there was some additional conversation which hopefully was captured as well to provide LE with additional information about the perp. Just thinking about my own response, if a stranger suddenly ordered me ”down the hill” at gunpoint, I would definitely at least ask “What do you want?” not expecting to get murdered, hoping it was a robbery and I could empty my pockets right then and there or best case scenario possible mistaken identity and on my way I’d go. Even two teens, I can’t imagine them immediately and obediently obeying the command without a verbal query of any sort. JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

everything implicates the witnesses have been sidelined ever since..
don't forget we have two kinds.. the first sketch and the second...and they have been deleting info from the profile gradually
also.. how much the sketches were the work of the artist or based really on the description is a controversial topic ..this happens a lot
MY VERDICT IS .. the witnesses are of no longer importance or they dont trust them
if he was wearing a disguise , then no witness would be able to identify him as in a scarf or so on

That’s a good point that LE seems to be deleting info from the profile gradually.
Whether it’s a function of the witnesses no longer being thought of as reliable, or LE realizing over time just how off they were in the investigation earlier, I don’t know.

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

Just thinking about my own response, if a stranger suddenly ordered me ”down the hill” at gunpoint, I would definitely at least ask “What do you want?”

What if you already knew what it was about,what if you already knew what he wanted,what then?

 

[MistyWaters]

What if you already knew what it was about,what if you already knew what he wanted,what then?

If it was a situation where a threat was known in advance, I’d get out of the area as fast as I could and/or call 911. That‘s one of the biggest mysteries of this case I think, that Libby took the video but didn’t call 911. The only reason I can think of is because the man wasn’t perceived as a serious threat while he was walking toward them. It’s as if they were just waiting for him to either turn around or pass by so they could walk back across the bridge.