IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #54

[J Lee]

Wouldn't that be more likely to be noticed? And they might say where's so and so ? Why is he not helping with the search? Helping with the search while you have the bodies in the boot waiting to dispose of them would be good cover actually. Also, he may have taken them to the creek bank separately whenevever he had the chance, thru the night, who knows? MOO. Did anyone park at back of cemetery during the search that night I wonder?

Or...maybe they were alive when brought back...he could have used a ruse and told the girls they would be safely set free if they kept their mouths shut and complied with his orders as BG brandished a handgun.


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[Jethro4WS]

I'd like to hear theories on this one too. Why? And why bring them back to that location? Significance?

If this is the work of serial killer(s) then perhaps to taunt LE.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Is anyone theorizing that these homicides may have been perpetratated by a member/s of LE or possibly a "wannabe"
cop?

just curious.

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Close to where I have gone with this and where I found my POI(s).

 

[Shiressleuth]

The only reason I can think of that he/they would come back to the abduction site, is that he did not want evidence of a crime found at the secondary site where the girls were taken. If, for example, he took them to land owned by himself or a relative, and he and left them there, he would be implicating himself in the crime.

And he may have also wanted to implicate someone else to divert suspicion. And he knew they were scaling back the search for the night with no Amber alert.

 

[mpnola]

otto, I read every one of your posts, when time allows. You are a wonderful sleuth with many good ideas.

Fact: LE stated that BG was a participant before he became the main suspect.

Fact: LE does not know if the audio recorded voice belongs to BG.

When considering those two compelling facts, how can you eliminate other participants possibly being involved?

Its not ruled out, but on March 7, Tobe Leazenby state they believe it is only ONE individual involved, but they are using plural because it is not completely ruled out. I think it's just a catch all, but it is unlikely that there was any more than just him. It's rare or never that they ever rule anything out until it is done. That doesn't mean that it is probable, though. I think that is a "juuuust in case", but not the avenue that they are going down. That's my opinion, based on what the police are actually saying.

Here is the interview:
[video=youtube;K_ISwatrrpY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_ISwatrrpY&app=desktop[/video]

The discussion starts around 5:50 and he states at 6:33 "we believe, we lean toward the single individual that is pictured".

 

[Falling Down]

This isn't directed at you because I know you are trying to explain, but I still don't understand the relevance of taking them back there. There's lots of roads, land...etc that would have been much easier to place them. Even outside the cemetary. Why trudge over to THAT specific location?

Agreed..

Just MOO and $.02:

A lot of folks have drawn comparisons between the murders in IA in 2012, and these murders. Are they related? Possibly, however the fact that the girls in the IA case were moved 20 miles or so from where they were abducted tells me that circumstances, MO, and other factors would dictate whether or not bodies or alive persons were moved.

In this case, the victims were older, and heavier, than the victims in the IA case. Additionally, LG and AW very well could have put up a fight, and MOO is they did just that. Did the perp or perps 'graduate' to a different demographic of victim(s)? Time will tell, but it has happened, and it shows how sophisticated these folks can be, as well as how their methods may evolve.

Be that as it may, I don't understand why anyone might think these girls were moved, although that's JMO. I believe LE were spooked by A) The speed of the crime, and B) The position(s) the bodies were in, when found, even if the latter was not apparent upon initial contact with the bodies. Note the relative calm in the first PC, then a palpable alarm within a week or so, among LE. I don't think it was obvious early on what kind of evil they were dealing with, but once multiple eyes, and forensic investigators, got involved, they knew they were dealing with a SK. JMO, of course. The alarm could be due to a multitude of factors, MOO is certain things were 'found' during the course of the initial investigation, which, upon further review, raised eyebrows among LE.

There may have been a subtle detail or details with regards to the crime scene, which were not apparent at the beginning of the homicide investigation. I think once the FBI sunk their teeth into this one, and started to analyze the 'knowns', LE in general got a little alarmed.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo, there is NO way BG was carrying bodies around. Both were adult-sized teens, one of the girls was larger than many adults, possibly heavier than BG himself. I believe he was alone in these murders. While LE has not stated so definitively, they have said nothing about a pair of men or a group of men, or even a couple who may have been acting suspiciously when asking the public to refresh their memories. BG herded the girls to the spot away from the bridge where they were later found, the spot where he killed them. Searches miss victims all the time during searches, sometimes people have been found weeks or months later in previously cleared areas and it was apparent they had not been moved after death. I think he had a weapon to move the girls, though maybe not used as a murder weapon. I think he was long gone by 5:30 and has stayed away from the area since.
Jmo

 

[Deleted member 278]

Wouldn't that be more likely to be noticed? And they might say where's so and so ? Why is he not helping with the search? Helping with the search while you have the bodies in the boot waiting to dispose of them would be good cover actually. Also, he may have taken them to the creek bank separately whenevever he had the chance, thru the night, who knows? MOO. Did anyone park at back of cemetery during the search that night I wonder?

I didn't necessarily mean immediately along the side of a road. He could have found a turnoff or a road seldom traveled.

I think you are assuming the killer is local. No one would question him not joining in on the search if he wasn't local. In fact, there were probably lots of locals that didn't search.

JMO

 

[J Lee]

Jmo, there is NO way BG was carrying bodies around. Both were adult-sized teens, one of the girls was larger than many adults, possibly heavier than BG himself. I believe he was alone in these murders. While LE has not stated so definitively, they have said nothing about a pair of men or a group of men, or even a couple who may have been acting suspiciously when asking the public to refresh their memories. BG herded the girls to the spot away from the bridge where they were later found, the spot where he killed them. Searches miss victims all the time during searches, sometimes people have been found weeks or months later in previously cleared areas and it was apparent they had not been moved after death. I think he had a weapon to move the girls, though maybe not used as a murder weapon. I think he was long gone by 5:30 and has stayed away from the area since.
Jmo

Imo
This is the most likely scenario.

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[DeDee]

We only see crime scene tape at one location.

Not sure that is accurate since someone, I think it was Jethro4WS, posted an image of CS tape also found at the end of the bridge. However, I did not save the image. Maybe he will respond.

 

[MistyWaters]

I took a break from this site for over a week because of the constant repetitive discussions that are going on here. We really need to find a way to cut through these repetitive issues and move ahead. We are not helping these children this way. We need to list what we know to be facts...truths...not discuss every scenario every which way to Sunday time and time again. There are so many scenarios on here it boggles the mind how people come up with them. I am feeling really bad for Abby and Libby.

I don't mean to offend anyone but it is depressing to read again. I was hoping to read something new.

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I know what you're saying. I recall numerous excellent, detailed and well researched posts about the possibility the bodies were moved or not. Clearly those sleuths invested a fair amount of time in presenting their opinion. But that was yesterday or the day before or the day before that. Each new day an entirely new discussion occurs as if it was never before talked about, over and over....


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[Boxeador]

I believe everyone but LE was very agitated. LE was working on the 'teens disappear to friends etc." But to the family and people who knew them it was desperate. Interviews with searchers were not light, the many searched straight thorough the night. In my opinion, it was obvious that they were fearing a terrible outcome and hoping not. These kinds of kids just don't disappear or change plans without a call. The search on 2/13 made national news.

 

[Deleted member 278]

Not sure that is accurate since someone, I think it was Jethro4WS, posted an image of CS tape also found at the end of the bridge. However, I did not save the image. Maybe he will respond.

I think that piece of tape was to keep people off the bridge until the entire area was processed. JMO.

 

[mpnola]

How long would it take to search 40 acres in the dark? I don't know.

I dont know. But, being that even if they were lost or hurt and not kidnapped, time was of the essence, being that the temperatures were dropping that night. Man searches in the dark were not the right way. They should have used heat detection in helicopters. It is a largely unpopulated area where they went missing and the trees were not thick with foliage. It would have been the ideal time to be able to "see" a human.

I know someone once said that they never do that so quickly and that is overkill, but I do not agree. These were girls who went missing from a high and dangerous bridge area and had no history of running away or defiance. I mean, if people were convinced enough to physically search and had a search planned for the next day, then it should have been done. A few weeks later I followed a case (in a different state) of a boy who left from school on foot, didnt go home and that is exactly what they did---- use the heat detection from the air. It DOES happen.

 

[Deleted member 278]

How do we cut through repetitive issues and move ahead when we don't have anything to move toward? We have no new information from LE. I think we're stuck here for a while.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Have you watched any videos of the crime scene area? If not I hope I can find one to link. It's by no means flat or level to the river bank. It's rough terraine and the river runs in a ravine below it.

The area where the girls were found is on a broad, relatively flat area along the creek. The best photo of it, in my opinion is the photo from media that shows RL's dog at the top of the hill (which I posted a few pages back) and the best videos that show the relative flatness are the WXIN one that someone posted from Getty a thread or three ago and the one found on Rich Van Wyk's twitter feed.

But to get a view of how flat it is LIDAR shows:

That flat area on the north side of the creek in the middle is where the crime scene is found.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I took a break from this site for over a week because of the constant repetitive discussions that are going on here. We really need to find a way to cut through these repetitive issues and move ahead. We are not helping these children this way. We need to list what we know to be facts...truths...not discuss every scenario every which way to Sunday time and time again. There are so many scenarios on here it boggles the mind how people come up with them. I am feeling really bad for Abby and Libby.

I don't mean to offend anyone but it is depressing to read again. I was hoping to read something new.

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Well give us a clue what you would like to see discussed and we'll try to comply? It is depressing and there is nothing new. That's two facts right there.

 

[Idareyato]

I took a break from this site for over a week because of the constant repetitive discussions that are going on here. We really need to find a way to cut through these repetitive issues and move ahead. We are not helping these children this way. We need to list what we know to be facts...truths...not discuss every scenario every which way to Sunday time and time again. There are so many scenarios on here it boggles the mind how people come up with them. I am feeling really bad for Abby and Libby.

I don't mean to offend anyone but it is depressing to read again. I was hoping to read something new.



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I am guilty of this and except what you have spoken. My apology without offense. Are we really solving anything. I know it takes a burden off my brain to find a listening ear, and my voice is given here because I have no where else to speak. One basket per case is enough. But two members have mentioned near noon today of a motorcycle scarf and no where have I read anything concerning that mode of transport. he layered clothing, the supposed goggles, the warm day just made me halt in my tracks. If this isn't new, then I missed it too. Thanks to the skull design posted earlier. Do you consider this off-base? (Except to accept on edit. Thanks. Nothing else to add.

 

[JLSChook]

Anything is possible, of course, but in my uneducated opinion, that which is the most common, most simple scenario is most often the correct one. While it is of course conceivable, I just don't see someone abducting two girls, and then returning them deceased to the exact spot where searching was still ongoing (reportedly family stayed out overnight.) It just doesn't ring logically to me. When I think about the most likely scenario (IMO IMO IMO) this guy was stalking the area to either assault, kill, or both. He was easily able to subdue both of them by threatening one with a weapon and telling the other that if she screamed or ran her friend was dead. Why pick two? Maybe he didn't see the second girl. Maybe he wanted two. Maybe he was stalking one of them rather than the area. Certainly no one but BG knows. March them down the hill and across the creek at a low point, do whatever he did, and leave. 100% my own opinion, but it always seems to me like the simplest answer is the most common answer. For every pig farmer feeding bodies to his pigs, serial killers burying bodies on his property, or ritual killings, there are probably hundreds if not thousands of straight forward murders.

As to why didn't the searchers see the bodies the night of the 13th, RL reported being asked that night (WISH tv link) if they could search his property. Twilight in Delphi that night was 6:47pm according to the calendar I posted below. If the searchers even made it on to his property that night, they were working with the limited beams of flashlights and a large, brushy area with a lot of leaf cover. I have participated in a few evening searches, and many more daytime ones, usually for an older adult with dementia or a child with autism who left their home, a handful of runaways, as well as a few missing persons reports that turned out to be suicides or ODs. A few times we absolutely missed what we were searching for by mere feet even in the daytime, due to leaf cover, not having enough searchers, inexperienced searchers, searchers not using a grid or line search but willy-nilly looking, and one time because we didn't look up despite the searchers being in exactly the right place. Can't provide links to those, as they were my personal experiences.

My long winded point was, I would be much more inclined to believe they were simply missed in the search that night, rather than someone going out of their way to return their bodies to that precise location. YMMV, and I genuinely appreciate all of these differing opinions because at the end of the day, none of us know the truth, but we all care a heck of a lot about these girls and getting justice for them.

http://wishtv.com/2017/02/16/police-question-multiple-people-in-delphi-girls-murders/

http://www.sunrisesunset.com/calendar.asp

I'm back in :lurk: mode but I just had to say that this is a GREAT post! I totally agree with every word.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I dont know. But, being that even if they were lost or hurt and not kidnapped, time was of the essence, being that the temperatures were dropping that night. Man searches in the dark were not the right way. They should have used heat detection in helicopters. It is a largely unpopulated area where they went missing and the trees were not thick with foliage. It would have been the ideal time to be able to "see" a human.

I know someone once said that they never do that so quickly and that is overkill, but I do not agree. These were girls who went missing from a high and dangerous bridge area and had no history of running away or defiance. I mean, if people were convinced enough to physically search and had a search planned for the next day, then it should have been done. A few weeks later I followed a case (in a different state) of a boy who left from school on foot, didnt go home and that is exactly what they did---- use the heat detection from the air. It DOES happen.

I agree. And if the time of death has come back as midnight or later you can imagine how LE must feel knowing they stood down.