IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #55

[lelandrob]

This is a snippet from an interview with Libby's other grandfather that describes the conflicting emotions on the day the girls went missing. He also lives near Delphi. Anyone here who's a parent knows how normal it is to attempt to rationalize what might be going on when teens aren't where they're supposed to be. It's absolutely a worse nightmare if the reason they're late is because they're no longer alive.

"He said that he and his wife had a call from family in Delphi on Monday afternoon, alerting them to the fact that the girls had gone missing.

The grandfather said that he didn't know Abigail Williams but that at first, he wasn't worried about the two friends.

'Family called from Delphi to see if Libby had come to Flora and if we had seen her' he said. 'The first thing on our minds was that she might have ran away, maybe she was trying to get to her mom's [in Kentucky].

'You don't know – a 14-year-old girl, she could have had an argument. Things like that go through your mind.

'Or maybe Abby got into a fight with someone and they were hiding out at her 18-year-old brother's house? "

'That's what you hope for. That's what I hoped for.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-Indiana-teens-speaks-out.html#ixzz4feIxBbHK
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What 18 year old brother????? Not mentioned in obit or anywhere that I've seen.

 

[otto]

I'm not sure why some are so baffled as to how one adult male could have easily gained control over two 13 yr old girls?

This question has come up a few times and has also been answered. I did some research pertaining to this specific scenario and found that more "successful" killers oftentimes target more than one person, or target families because it is Easier for the killer to control victims because they use the inherent love the victims have for one another to manipulate and better control the situation. Here is a quote on that very topic via https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...their-murders:

"Finally, as contradictory as it sounds, there are unsolved cases of killers involving entire families. One killer told me it was easier to kill more than one victim at a time. He said it can be easier to control victims by threatening their friends and family. Parents will do anything for their children, including agreeing to be tied up. He also said police are usually so mortified by the scene that mistakes can be made. So strangely, those that target families and more than one victim at once have been known to get away with multiple murders. If they are in control enough to keep quiet about the crimes, they are less likely to be caught."

Taking control of and apprehending two or more people is seemingly easier to do than just targeting one person.

*Please see the multiple accounts of Dennis Rader (he killed families), Ted Bundy, The Manson Family, The Zodiac Killer, Edmund Kemper, Danny Rolling *Gainsville Slayings, Donald Gaskins, etc... to see how and why killers sometimes choose to target more than one victim at a time.

LE described that A+L were controlled and manipulated by the love they had for one another; thus, this very scenario I have described above was confirmed by LE.

I'm not sure it's even worth mentioning but, besides the fact A+L loved each other, they were for all intents and purposes, just children. Children are way more vulnerable for obvious reasons and can be easily controlled in most circumstances.

Also, it has also discussed how/why the killer left Liberty's phone? ... I think she dropped it on purpose somewhere hoping it would be found... (Afterall, She was very smart and maybe she knew the killer would want to destroy it if he found it and she knew she was recording him.) I could imagine it would take a lot of time to scour the woods and the underbrush looking for it, maybe the killer just couldn't find it.

One more thing: I personally think the girls were left where they were killed. I do think it would be very difficult to find them in the very dark woods... There was moonlight and flashlights but even if the killer scattered leaves over them, I think it would be hard to locate them in such a densely wooded area in pitch black darkness. I also don't understand why it's so hard to fathom why they "should have" been found the night they went missing? I'm sure without light you probably couldn't see your hand in front of your face at night ... It just seems plausible that frantic searching in a very dark and secluded place could invariably leave some room for not readily or easily discovering the girls' bodies.

This is probably the best explanation I have seen for why it would have been so easy for one suspect to abduct the two close friends, and why it would have been so difficult to find them after 7PM (dusk at 6:30PM) on Feb 13.

 

[Shiressleuth]

"A do-rag (also spelled variously as a doo-rag, dew-rag, du-rag or durag), is a piece of cloth used to cover the top of one's head, sometimes made of nylon material and having a "skullcap" fit. It may also be referred to as a "wavecap". According to the Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster dictionary, the term derives from 'do as in hairdo.[1][2]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-rag

Thankyou - I'm english but never heard that before.

 

[Shiressleuth]

What 18 year old brother????? Not mentioned in obit or anywhere that I've seen.

He doesn't know A but knows she has an 18 yo brother. Would the brother possibly be EW featured in the 13th Feb search video posted recently does anyone know?

 

[otto]

Bringing forward the map from Bob Saccamano - referenced by mpnola in the last thread ...

"The black perforated line is where I just don't think it is possible for most any vehicle to go based on topography. From the beginning, I've felt there is a strong possibility that he could have parked a car in the southwest corner of the cemetery in the trees. Nobody pays too much attention to a car parked at a cemetery. It is also a central location from the bridge and allegedly where they were found. This is the yellow arrow.

The red arrows are areas where the topography would be traversable, but I'm not sure what kind of fencing mr Logan had up that would have prevented someone from driving in there. I do know there was some barbed wire shown on news reports.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=110934&d=1487904186 "

 

[WebSight]

Thank you for the separate image discussion thread. To those who suggested I scroll past...that's what I've been doing, for weeks. But I don't have a lot of time to read here, and when I do, it's frustrating to have to scroll through pages of image discussion to try to find non-Image related posts. I end up giving up and not reading the thread at all sometimes.

Many of us have to scroll past posts on subjects we don't want to read about either and we have been doing that for months. Pictures that you don't want to look at are easier to scroll by as you see right away they are of no interest to you.When we scroll past written posts sometimes we need to scan the first few sentences before we realize that we are not interested or we have heard it before. Now that is time consuming.


imo

 

[MistyWaters]

The Delphi trail system is 10 miles long. Although the girls were dropped off by a relative, the Monon Bridge area appears to be a walkable distance to and from town.

http://www.theindychannel.com/longform/delphi-daughters-a-360-tour-of-the-monon-high-bridge

 

[Lilowlet]

He doesn't know A but knows she has an 18 yo brother. Would the brother possibly be EW featured in the 13th Feb search video posted recently does anyone know?

Dunno, can't find sm on any of the above, but id imagine that it's hard on an older bro, the nature of wanting to protect a younger sister, I see it in my own son the protectiveness. So he may just imo need more time. I keep looking but i havent found anything in over a week about either ew or bro. God bless their families, and I hope something positive in the investigation comes to light soon for them.

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[Lilowlet]

Bringing forward the map from Bob Saccamano - referenced by mpnola in the last thread ...

"The black perforated line is where I just don't think it is possible for most any vehicle to go based on topography. From the beginning, I've felt there is a strong possibility that he could have parked a car in the southwest corner of the cemetery in the trees. Nobody pays too much attention to a car parked at a cemetery. It is also a central location from the bridge and allegedly where they were found. This is the yellow arrow.

The red arrows are areas where the topography would be traversable, but I'm not sure what kind of fencing mr Logan had up that would have prevented someone from driving in there. I do know there was some barbed wire shown on news reports.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=110934&d=1487904186 "

I tend to lean towards the cemetery as well. Thanks for bringing that forward.

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[MistyWaters]

He doesn't know A but knows she has an 18 yo brother. Would the brother possibly be EW featured in the 13th Feb search video posted recently does anyone know?

I doubt it, imo that person looks far older than 18. If Delphi is like any other typical small town population 3000, considering the families of both are from there, the girls are probably related to at least half the town, directly or through marriage. Not saying this to be unkind, it's just how it is

 

[otto]

I tend to lean towards the cemetery as well. Thanks for bringing that forward.

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Thanks ... it's a good map of the topography. My impression is that the girls were in the ravine area, but I don't know.

 

[Nanjack00]

This is a snippet from an interview with Libby's other grandfather that describes the conflicting emotions on the day the girls went missing. He also lives near Delphi. Anyone here who's a parent knows how normal it is to attempt to rationalize what might be going on when teens aren't where they're supposed to be. It's absolutely a worse nightmare if the reason they're late is because they're no longer alive.

"He said that he and his wife had a call from family in Delphi on Monday afternoon, alerting them to the fact that the girls had gone missing.

The grandfather said that he didn't know Abigail Williams but that at first, he wasn't worried about the two friends.

'Family called from Delphi to see if Libby had come to Flora and if we had seen her' he said. 'The first thing on our minds was that she might have ran away, maybe she was trying to get to her mom's [in Kentucky].

'You don't know – a 14-year-old girl, she could have had an argument. Things like that go through your mind.

'Or maybe Abby got into a fight with someone and they were hiding out at her 18-year-old brother's house?

'And then they'll get tired and come back tomorrow morning or they'll call. Something like that.'

However, Bridge said that his granddaughter was conscientious and he didn't believe that she would have simply lost track of time.

'If Libby said she was going to be back at three-thirty, she would have done that,' he said.

'Unless there was a scenario – and the other said, "Ok, I'm your best friend, I'm going to go with you."

'That's what you hope for. That's what I hoped for.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-Indiana-teens-speaks-out.html#ixzz4feIxBbHK
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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I'm confused. Mr. Bridge didn't know Abby, but then goes on the say:
'Or maybe Abby got into a fight with someone and they were hiding out at her 18-year-old brother's house? ......

Then says: that his granddaughter was conscientious and he didn't believe that she would have simply lost track of time.
'If Libby said she was going to be back at three-thirty, she would have done that,' .....but also thought: 'The first thing on our minds was that she might have ran away, maybe she was trying to get to her mom's [in Kentucky].

Must have been a bad reporting job.

 

[Falling Down]

Originally Posted by slanda

I'm not sure why some are so baffled as to how one adult male could have easily gained control over two 13 yr old girls?

This question has come up a few times and has also been answered. I did some research pertaining to this specific scenario and found that more "successful" killers oftentimes target more than one person, or target families because it is Easier for the killer to control victims because they use the inherent love the victims have for one another to manipulate and better control the situation. Here is a quote on that very topic via https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...their-murders:

"Finally, as contradictory as it sounds, there are unsolved cases of killers involving entire families. One killer told me it was easier to kill more than one victim at a time. He said it can be easier to control victims by threatening their friends and family. Parents will do anything for their children, including agreeing to be tied up. He also said police are usually so mortified by the scene that mistakes can be made. So strangely, those that target families and more than one victim at once have been known to get away with multiple murders. If they are in control enough to keep quiet about the crimes, they are less likely to be caught."

Taking control of and apprehending two or more people is seemingly easier to do than just targeting one person.

*Please see the multiple accounts of Dennis Rader (he killed families), Ted Bundy, The Manson Family, The Zodiac Killer, Edmund Kemper, Danny Rolling *Gainsville Slayings, Donald Gaskins, etc... to see how and why killers sometimes choose to target more than one victim at a time.

Agreed. Until I'd become more involved with WS since this case started, I was unaware of the fact that abductions of multiple victims, by one perp, is more commonplace than many might think. Another case is the Colonial Parkway Murders, where it's believed there was one perp, but in each killing there were two victims. The perp most likely posed as a LEO, and the Parkway killings could be related to others in Virginia and down the coast.

Israel Keyes (a SK I didn't have a clue about until recently, thanks to WS) abducted a couple in Vermont, woke them up in their bedroom, then drove them in their own vehicle to an abandoned house, where he sexually assaulted the wife, and killed both. It's the 'surprise' aspect which I think is a big factor in abduction cases, and ends up spooking LE, as it reveals premeditation on the part of the perp, well thought out plans, if you will.

This killer has to have had some experience, before Feb. 13th. It seems like they are messy or sloppy at first, then get more efficient and whatnot with each murder. .

LE described that A+L were controlled and manipulated by the love they had for one another; thus, this very scenario I have described above was confirmed by LE.

I'm not sure it's even worth mentioning but, besides the fact A+L loved each other, they were for all intents and purposes, just children. Children are way more vulnerable for obvious reasons and can be easily controlled in most circumstances.

Also, it has also discussed how/why the killer left Liberty's phone? ... I think she dropped it on purpose somewhere hoping it would be found... (Afterall, She was very smart and maybe she knew the killer would want to destroy it if he found it and she knew she was recording him.) I could imagine it would take a lot of time to scour the woods and the underbrush looking for it, maybe the killer just couldn't find it.

Agreed, and the killer would not have wanted to go back to try to find it, despite the short distance involved (SE end of the bridge to the CS). It's one more bit of info we'll get at some point. I hold that the incident was over in a matter of minutes, and that the killer would have wanted to get out of there.

One more thing: I personally think the girls were left where they were killed. I do think it would be very difficult to find them in the very dark woods... There was moonlight and flashlights but even if the killer scattered leaves over them, I think it would be hard to locate them in such a densely wooded area in pitch black darkness. I also don't understand why it's so hard to fathom why they "should have" been found the night they went missing? I'm sure without light you probably couldn't see your hand in front of your face at night ... It just seems plausible that frantic searching in a very dark and secluded place could invariably leave some room for not readily or easily discovering the girls' bodies.

I've spent a lot of time in wooded areas at night. A typical incandescent flashlight throws a fairly narrow beam. What I would call a 'search flashlight', like someone might have on a boat, firefighters use, etc., is less common but they may have used them that night. MOO is the "search" in the vicinity of RL's property and behind the cemetery could have been a quick one, they may not have walked down to the creek area. .

I still maintain that the search didn't have much of a sense of urgency because LE and the searchers believed the girls were not in danger.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm confused. Mr. Bridge didn't know Abby, but then goes on the say:
'Or maybe Abby got into a fight with someone and they were hiding out at her 18-year-old brother's house? ......

Then says: that his granddaughter was conscientious and he didn't believe that she would have simply lost track of time.
'If Libby said she was going to be back at three-thirty, she would have done that,' .....but also thought: 'The first thing on our minds was that she might have ran away, maybe she was trying to get to her mom's [in Kentucky].

Must have been a bad reporting job.

Generally speaking reporters don't include the full transcript and it's one of the reasons why many people refuse to talk to the media.

But the man is attempting to illustrate the family's conflicting emotions and thoughts and in my opinion he does that very well. Likewise with any other highly emotional situation, it's really not intended to be shredded word for word. It's also probably the first time many of these people have been in front of the media. It's not easy, especially during a time of tragedy.


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[MistyWaters]

Thanks ... it's a good map of the topography. My impression is that the girls were in the ravine area, but I don't know.

Here's one of the links I was looking for yesterday but I don't know how to paste the video from it here. But RL and the reporter are walking down an embankment and we see RL pointing to what looks an area further below. From the topography map, it also appears the cemetery is much higher in elevation when compared to the crime scene.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...e-bodies-of-two-missing-teen-girls-were-found

This quote from that same link has been pasted on these threads dozens of times already, once again...

"Logan said that with the steep embankments and rough terrain on the back end of his property, it would be difficult to even make it to the location, let alone carry two bodies down and drop them off.

“For them to get from there to all the way here with that rough territory they had to walk, you couldn’t carry them in a million years or drag them or drop them off,” said Logan. “They had to walk.”





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[St. Anthony2017]

Do you think we should try to contact Sgt. Leazenby and respectfully ask if the latest tip information is under investigation?Even if he can't tell us the details he might give us a clue that something is indeed going on related to this case. Or maybe that reporter Kim Adams knows something. Hopefully a press conference will be forthcoming. I am sure the families of the girls want to know what's going on too. Their press conference Thursday may have helped to catch the killer. We can't imagine what they are feeling but look how bad we all feel for their loss.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I've spent a lot of time in wooded areas at night. A typical incandescent flashlight throws a fairly narrow beam. What I would call a 'search flashlight', like someone might have on a boat, firefighters use, etc., is less common but they may have used them that night. MOO is the "search" in the vicinity of RL's property and behind the cemetery could have been a quick one, they may not have walked down to the creek area. .

I still maintain that the search didn't have much of a sense of urgency because LE and the searchers believed the girls were not in danger.

RSBM

They had the SC photos so it would be logical to begin at the S end of the bridge and the CS was only 600 feet from there. Also, RL gave permission for them to search his property at 6.30 p.m. so they were already looking on the cemetery side of the Creek at that time. They searched for at least 6 hours and many searched thru the night too apparently. I just find it hard to see how they were missed only 17 yards or so from the creek, assuming they were there then, about which I have doubts. JMO

 

[whiskers]

The Daily Mail is not known for great editing. I *think* that the Grandfather was referring to Libby's brother or some sort of step brother. Remember, Libby had a very, very blended family.

I believe the writer confused the names Abby and Libby. I know I've done it throughout these threads.

 

[margarita25]

Thankyou - I'm english but never heard that before.

(That's ok, I hadn't heard "bumbag" before :biggrin: )

 

[Shiressleuth]

Here's one of the links I was looking for yesterday but I don't know how to paste the video from it here. But RL and the reporter are walking down an embankment and we see RL pointing to what looks an area further below. From the topography map, it also appears the cemetery is much higher in elevation when compared to the crime scene.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...e-bodies-of-two-missing-teen-girls-were-found

This quote from that same link has been pasted on these threads dozens of times already, once again...

"Logan said that with the steep embankments and rough terrain on the back end of his property, it would be difficult to even make it to the location, let alone carry two bodies down and drop them off.

“For them to get from there to all the way here with that rough territory they had to walk, you couldn’t carry them in a million years or drag them or drop them off,” said Logan. “They had to walk.”





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We have indeed seen this many times. So what do you think that indicates? That they did not walk down from cemetery or that they did or that they came across creek then perp left via cemetery or by boat or horse? If a 77 year old can make it, two fit yoing athletes could easily make it and it could even be a favourite hangout of their's. I don't see the point you are making exactly.