IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #66

[deedee21]

I was wondering why there wasn't a profile for Abigail and Libby's killer. With all the other information, that might be helpful.

A profile was released. It was done during the press conference. You can find it on youtube. I will look it up.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Yes Shire, and I also recall reading something about many ppl often standing out front of mears property, lots of workers it was suggested, ... Anyone recall this? I def do but cannot recall source. Were they really workers or ... ???

Before I posted I did a google search and easily found the article. I think it was also in the media thread . I remember the quote of "comings and goings etc" and I thought it referred to illegal stuff but could be liaisons. It wasn't referring to workers because it mentioned all times of the day and night. I will look in media thread and edit this post if I find it, as appropriate.

Eta. It is page 13 of the media thread posted by Spellbound dated 7 Apr and it is a newsbug herald journal article.
Thanks BOP I see you have posted it below again. The media thread really is a good source to use.

 

[deedee21]

Youtube Delphi Press Conference 2-22-17 full

 

[Bird of Paradise]

Before I posted I did a google search and easily found the article. I think it was also in the media thread . I remember the quote of "comings and goings etc" and I thought it referred to illegal stuff but could be liaisons. It wasn't referring to workers because it mentioned all times of the day and night. I will look in media thread and edit this post if I find it, as appropriate.

“His concern was there was activity there day and night, even when you wouldn’t think there should be,” McCain said.

http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_9f53101a-199f-11e7-b5f4-a3a21ffea83d.html

 

[terpstra1]

The FBI was supposedly making a profile for the BG back in Feb.The lack of one officially/publicly released is what initially made me think that there is more than one suspect.

I believe they have one. They may not be releasing it because if they're wrong it could be used by BGs lawyer against then if and when they go to trial.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[oceanblueeyes]

This is OT but it reminded me of this case and others involving more than one victim.

I just watched an episode on OWN where two teen girls (18-19 iirc) were out on an overlook deck in a park in Tx., and out of no where a man came up to them with a gun, and forced them in to the wooded area below. He made one of the victims put duct tape on the other one, and then apply it to herself plus I think he made one bind the other one up. Then he proceeded to rape one of the victims, and shot both of them in the head leaving them both for dead right at the same location. One of the teens died and the other one was gravely injured leaving her with life long disabilities which impaired the way her left arm and leg moves. She is blessed to be alive.

The case went unsolved for over two years. The one surviving victim said the main thing each one of them wanted to do is everything they could in order to protect the other one... so they did as the man said hoping he would let them both go. I believe this is the same mindset these two beautiful girls, (A&L) had in their hearts the day they also crossed path with their own monster. The same love, and protective bond L&E had the day they were also cruelly murdered.

Why I mentioned this particular case is it gives us a glimpse into the mindset of victims when there is more than one victim involved who has been ambushed or kidnapped by a murderous maniac. Often in cases like this there are no surviving victims left behind to tell their story.

The man who did this did not have any prior criminal record whatsoever before he abducted, raped one, and shot both young teen girls thinking he had killed them both. He did not look like a monster when he was finally caught and came from a good family. By the time he was finally caught he had married, and had a good job. In fact if one didn't know what he had done he looked more like a nerd instead of a stone cold killer and rapist.

It just shows this can happen anywhere, and anytime by anyone. No one knows what is really in the mind of anyone even though they may 'appear' to fit in with social norms while masking their dark secrets and deviant desires to rape or murder or both.

JMO

 

[terpstra1]

This is OT but it reminded me of this case and others involving more than one victim.

I just watched an episode on OWN where two teen girls (18-19 iirc) were out on an overlook deck in a park in Tx., and out of no where a man came up to them with a gun, and forced them in to the wooded area below. He made one of the victims put duct tape on the other one, and then apply it to herself plus I think he made one bind the other one up. Then he proceeded to rape one of the victims, and shot both of them in the head leaving them both for dead right at the same location. One of the teens died and the other one was gravely injured leaving her with life long disabilities which impaired the way her left arm and leg moves. She is blessed to be alive.

The case went unsolved for over two years. The one surviving victim said the main thing each one of them wanted to do is everything they could in order to protect the other one... so they did as the man said hoping he would let them both go. I believe this is the same mindset these two beautiful girls, (A&L) had in their hearts the day they also crossed path with their own monster. The same love, and protective bond L&E had the day they were also cruelly murdered.

Why I mentioned this particular case is it gives us a glimpse into the mindset of victims when there is more than one victim involved who has been ambushed or kidnapped by a murderous maniac. Often in cases like this there are no surviving victims left behind to tell their story.

The man who did this did not have any prior criminal record whatsoever before he abducted, raped one, and shot both young teen girls thinking he had killed them both. He did not look like a monster when he was finally caught and came from a good family. By the time he was finally caught he had married, and had a good job. In fact if one didn't know what he had done he looked more like a nerd instead of a stone cold killer and rapist.

It just shows this can happen anywhere, and anytime by anyone. No one knows what is really in the mind of anyone even though they may 'appear' to fit in with social norms while masking their dark secrets and deviant desires to rape or murder or both.

JMO

I've always believed this was the case with Libby and Abby. Thank you for posting. I think we should be having a frank discussion with our children. They need to try and get away at all costs.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[htiff]

RSBM
Do you have any facts or burglary statistics for Delphi that supports that speculation? Obviously not required for a theory so no worries if you haven't. Its a valid point anyway.

I did look up burglaries in the area, and I didn't find much for that neighborhood. So the possibility that this is why the killer was there, is remote.

The two aspects of this crime that stand out for me are: Why that trail? Why was the killer even there? And how was it that he didn't seem to be all that concerned about trespassing on private property?

So I'm just looking at what would have brought a person like him, to that particular spot. And why does he seem to be so comfortable in that location?

I've lived in rural areas in Texas and Mass. And it was generally understood that you don't trespass, because some property owners shoot first and ask questions later. In a stand-your-ground state, a property owner has even more license to come after a trespasser. It's odd to me that this guy not only commits this brazen act in daylight, on a trail that does get some traffic, and at time of year where it would be hard to "hide"--the sparseness of the trees doesn't allow for much coverage---but he also ventures onto private property, and commits murder on private property.

If he's unfamiliar with the area, he would have no idea who was home, or how often they patrolled or simply enjoyed their own land.

If the killer had been trespassing earlier, he might have a sense of the habits of the property owners. Or maybe he'd been on the property enough that he just figured his chances were good, that he wouldn't get caught.

Or, he was really lucky.

I'm surprised by choices this killer made, and am just trying to see if there might be an answer that makes sense, that might then point in some way, to who this guy is.

With the Amherst Trail killer, he was a jogger. He used the trails he stalked his victims on. I do think sometimes that location of a crime, can actually reveal something about the person who chooses a specific location for their crime. And the Monon High Bridge trail, feels very specific.

Delphi is off the beaten path. I don't know that it attracts much tourism. The Monon High Bridge trail may be known more to locals--so how did this killer happen on it? And if he's somewhat local, why hasn't he been recognized by now?

Why that trail?

 

[Bird of Paradise]

Great Post. Really great questions. These are the questions I personally think will lead to the killer.
JMO

I did look up burglaries in the area, and I didn't find much for that neighborhood. So the possibility that this is why the killer was there, is remote.

The two aspects of this crime that stand out for me are: Why that trail? Why was the killer even there? And how was it that he didn't seem to be all that concerned about trespassing on private property?

So I'm just looking at what would have brought a person like him, to that particular spot. And why does he seem to be so comfortable in that location?

I've lived in rural areas in Texas and Mass. And it was generally understood that you don't trespass, because some property owners shoot first and ask questions later. In a stand-your-ground state, a property owner has even more license to come after a trespasser. It's odd to me that this guy not only commits this brazen act in daylight, on a trail that does get some traffic, and at time of year where it would be hard to "hide"--the sparseness of the trees doesn't allow for much coverage---but he also ventures onto private property, and commits murder on private property.

If he's unfamiliar with the area, he would have no idea who was home, or how often they patrolled or simply enjoyed their own land.

If the killer had been trespassing earlier, he might have a sense of the habits of the property owners. Or maybe he'd been on the property enough that he just figured his chances were good, that he wouldn't get caught.

Or, he was really lucky.

I'm surprised by choices this killer made, and am just trying to see if there might be an answer that makes sense, that might then point in some way, to who this guy is.

With the Amherst Trail killer, he was a jogger. He used the trails he stalked his victims on. I do think sometimes that location of a crime, can actually reveal something about the person who chooses to use that location for their crime.

Delphi is off the beaten path. I don't know that it attracts much tourism. The Monon High Bridge trail may be known more to locals--so how did this killer happen on it? And if he's somewhat local, why hasn't he been recognized by now?

Why that trail?

 

[Jethro4WS]

Two can be easier to control than one when because both are trying to protect someone else's life, someone they love dearly. In the description of Israel Keyes' attack on the middle aged couple, he had them subdued until he separated them and then they both fought like the dickens. You aren't going to break and run leaving them, you aren't going to move a muscle with a weapon to their throat or temple.

Sure. But the question remains: How could BG know that would be the case with any kind of certainty? Fight, Flight, or Freeze is a sub-second decision process. Their isn't much deliberate thinking allowed by the brain when such situations arise.

All of these would have been what could have occurred: both girls freeze, both girls run, both girls fight, one girl freezes one girl runs, one girl freezes one girl fights, one girl runs one girl fights. Only 2 of those 6 work in BGs favor - both freeze, one fights one freezes - and only 1 optimally - both freeze. So, in the best case he had a 33% chance of success at the start of the crime and 16% as his second best chance of success. And it isn't really 33% because it much depends on if the one choosing to fight presents the opportunity for the one that freezes to choose to fight or flee as time goes on.

We know what did occur and we know that LE and the family said they would not leave each other. But BG would only be guessing that would be the case.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

BBM - Jethro - I think you meant would NOT leave each other, yes?

Sure. But the question remains: How could BG know that would be the case with any kind of certainty? Fight, Flight, or Freeze is a sub-second decision process. Their isn't much deliberate thinking allowed by the brain when such situations arise.

All of these would have been what could have occurred: both girls freeze, both girls run, both girls fight, one girl freezes one girl runs, one girl freezes one girl fights, one girl runs one girl fights. Only 2 of those 6 work in BGs favor - both freeze, one fights one freezes - and only 1 optimally - both freeze. So, in the best case he had a 33% chance of success at the start of the crime and 16% as his second best chance of success. And it isn't really 33% because it much depends on if the one choosing to fight presents the opportunity for the one that freezes to choose to fight or flee as time goes on.

We know what did occur and we know that LE and the family said they would leave each other. But BG would only be guessing that would be the case.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

Youtube Delphi Press Conference 2-22-17 full

I just went back over the presser.Most of what Massa said sounded after the fact to me.However I noticed he did say that the FBI would be putting out a series of these indicators on their social media.I don't think I ever checked to see if the FBI had a FB or Twitters.Has anyone else?

 

[Shiressleuth]

I don't know who may remember but we did have a couple of cases where men pretended to be conservation or LE officers. One guy asked to see some teens fishing licences at Sullivan Lake and that is a similar vibe I originally had with this guy - posing as an authority figure, but nothing has come of it and both those guys were caught IIRC. Also a fisherman or deer/rabbit hunter. We have some acreage and allow a guy to shoot on it to control rabbits. We have asked him to let us know when he is going to be there and he does it a couple of times per month. This could be a similar thing or he could pretend to be there with permission if challenged. The landowners would already have provided details to LE of authorised personnel I would think. Also, was he a previous landowner/tenant there and knows the lay of the land that way? Any property change hands in the few years before February? Just throwing ideas around. MOO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Unfortunately, murderers like this are high risk takers. I think the higher the risk the more they are thrilled by their murderous acts. We really will never be able to ascertain why they take such high risks but I do think it is part of the game/thrill. All we know...is they do ...time, and time again. Due to the change in the MO of so many violent criminals in recent years it has led many people to lock their doors during the middle of the day along with locking them at night. Even if they live in very safe neighborhoods.

This was a remote wooded area and he isn't the only one who has selected these kind of areas before.

Yet we have seen so many cases for years on WS where predators have abducted their victims right in broad daylight on very busy streets. So it does not surprise me in the least BG selected this area to commit homicides against two young girls.

In most all of the abductions resulting in rape/ murder that were committed during broad daylight no one saw or heard a thing either.

Many abductions/murders have also happened in remote areas or county parks with wooded areas in them or walking trails or jogging paths right during the daytime.

Just like home invasions are on the rise now and it use to be they would come into someone's home during the night or when no one was home...steal and then leave. But now they are invading homes with victims inside right in the middle of the daytime and many are ending in gruesome over-killings of those who were caught inside when the home invader/s turned rapists/murderers barged in.

The violent criminals in our society seem to have become bolder and bolder now. Daylight does not deter them anymore.

IMO

 

[Jethro4WS]

Some local LE do not release the FBI profile publicly and use it only as a tool to assist the investigators.

Even if they did release one in this case I think it would be pretty much inline with Lyric and Elizabeth's case which says this:

BAU case experience indicates that the vast majority of these types of offenses are committed by one offender. However, there are cases in which more than one offender was involved in some part of the criminal act.

I have never thought it was more than one offender and I don't think LE believes there is more than one and they positively think BG is the suspect who murdered these two girls. BG didn't need any help doing these horrific murders. He controlled both by fear and intimidation threatening to harm one or both if they did not comply to his demands. He didn't need help disposing of the bodies because he left them were they were murdered. imo

Unfortunately through the years even the FBI profiler has been wrong in past cases, and that is why they always use the wordage of 'may have' because the profile may turnout to be incorrect.

I do think this was a crime of opportunity when BG saw two young vulnerable girls in a remote area and they were alone. If BG is a sexual predator they are always cruising areas like this, and are always prepared in case the opportunity presents itself.

IMO

If LE was certain, or even strongly believed that there was one and only one perpetrator they would have said so. I don't think they have strong enough confidence or the evidence to say it with certainty. It seems as if there is some aspect of this crime within the evidence LE does have in their possession that leaves the door open to more than one perpetrator. That is, it is more likely than not that this is the work of a lone actor but LE can't be sure of that. However, LE hasn't even said that it is more likely than not a lone perpetrator. LE has, in fact, taken no opportunity to settle this.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I think however the list is put together, it should include links to the articles and references that support the list.

Wouldn't that simply be a duplication of what is already on the Media/Timeline/Maps thread for this case that already exists?

 

[Jethro4WS]

Below is a map of the streets around the portion of the Monon High Bridge Trail that are relevant to this case. The road that goes directly under the bridge appears to be public, N 625 W and intersects at W 200 N---W 200 N intersects with the Hoosier Heartland Highway.

(It's possible that as 625 nears the home that it leads to, as it goes under and past the Monon bridge, that this section is private--I couldn't tell from the map. But it looks like a public road.)

The houses in that vicinity on 300 and 550 are all very nice--multi-bedroom, expensive for the area. One thought that occurred to me as I traveled the area virtually by way of Google Maps is that, possibly (and this is highly speculative), the killer was actually back in this area checking for possible burglary opportunities, and happened on the girls. That's the area he's in--easy access to the rear of some of these nicer homes. And though he may not have planned on doing anything that day, it's the perfect way to scope out the terrain. Violent crime is low in Delphi, but personal property crime is in keeping with the national average.

The railway itself appears to be owned by CSX Transportaion. They own access rights--I think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monon_Railroad

One thing to note. You cannot enter or exit the Hoosier Heartland Highway from 200N. You have to travel further south to access that road or you have to go all the way around to the north side.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I think that reviewing FACTS from early in the case, can be advantageous at times. This thread is confusing for new people because so many posts depart completely from any type of fact. Trying to figure out the fact from the fiction is a chore.

That is why there are advisory posts from time to time by various individuals pointing people to the Media/Timeline/Maps thread for this case. It seems as if very few people do so.

 

[terpstra1]

Sure. But the question remains: How could BG know that would be the case with any kind of certainty? Fight, Flight, or Freeze is a sub-second decision process. Their isn't much deliberate thinking allowed by the brain when such situations arise.

All of these would have been what could have occurred: both girls freeze, both girls run, both girls fight, one girl freezes one girl runs, one girl freezes one girl fights, one girl runs one girl fights. Only 2 of those 6 work in BGs favor - both freeze, one fights one freezes - and only 1 optimally - both freeze. So, in the best case he had a 33% chance of success at the start of the crime and 16% as his second best chance of success. And it isn't really 33% because it much depends on if the one choosing to fight presents the opportunity for the one that freezes to choose to fight or flee as time goes on.

We know what did occur and we know that LE and the family said they would leave each other. But BG would only be guessing that would be the case.

I've often read that children won't try to run. In the cases of 2 children they sense safety in numbers.

Sadly I think if one had run they may have saved their lives. If BG had a gun it's hard to believe he would have used it and brought attention to the situation. Also it's very difficult to shoot someone running through the woods with a hand gun.
If one had somehow gotten away would he abandon the other? I think there's a good chance. He would have certainly expect the runner to seek help not knowing how long that would take. I don't see him killing the other on the spot or trying to take her out of the area. That wasn't his plan. It would be hard to change plans that quickly when he didnt have the luxury of time thinking it out. Also he would know the runner could identify him.
This is in no way judging the girls actions that day. God only knows what they were thinking. I just wanted to put this out there for people reading these threads. Get away at all costs.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Jethro4WS]

BBM - Jethro - I think you meant would NOT leave each other, yes?

Yes. Just edited that. Terrible mistake to type.