GUILTY IN - Amanda Blackburn, 28, pregnant, murdered, Indianapolis, 10 Nov 2015 #4

[DeDee]

Thanks MM for your thoughts.

Some interesting points. Although it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't understand the risk of staying at the house in relation to needing cash. They needed cash, yes, but ATM's only let you withdraw $400 max anyway. Truly not worth the risk of dealing with a fighting victim. A fighting victim! Get the h*ll out of dodge and go somewhere else. Instead they turned it into a virtual hostage situation. The hostage element is a whole new level and it's tripping me up. It's bizarre. These guys, from what I've read, are young and sloppy (getting nabbed on security cams, ATM cams, leaving cigar packages behind, etc). Now they've started taking hostages while risking being found out? Weird. Couple hundred dollars isn't worth it. If you must, take the wallet like most other thieves and run. Take the laptop like most other thieves and run. Kicking around trying to get your victim to give you the right PIN number is lunacy. They had no guarantee she'd give it to them anyway.

These guys are clearly not that bright, but LT staying behind is not making sense to me.

leaving cigar packages behind

I think this cigar was planted. A burglar does not go inside someone's strange home and take out a cigar and not smoke it. If he stayed around and ate a bowl of ice cream or helped himself to a Popsicle, I could believe that. Not his own cigar tho. As it has been stated, LT was never once seen to be in a hurry. That tells me that he didn't leave the house in a hurry without taking his cigar with him. It was found at the home, on purpose. JMHO

 

[LaborDayRN]

I think this cigar was planted. A burglar does not go inside someone's strange home and take out a cigar and not smoke it. If he stayed around and ate a bowl of ice cream or helped himself to a Popsicle, I could believe that. Not his own cigar tho. As it has been stated, LT was never once seen to be in a hurry. That tells me that he didn't leave the house in a hurry without taking his cigar with him. It was found at the home, on purpose. JMHO

Just some food for thought. When my home was broken into, the creeps smoked cigarettes in my home (I don't smoke so there were no cigarettes in my house), put them out on my antique oak coffee table and left the butts lying right there on the table! Not the brightest bunch for sure.

 

[MJPeony]

....
What did the men intent to do with AB after they got the money from her account (if she hadn't been murdered)? That's what I haven't read so far unless I missed it in another post.

snipped for focus

Yep. Same question here. From the PC documents it appears LT has been reported as having told the CI that it was more or less an "unplanned" shooting (my words, MO of what the gist is). "Unplanned" in that it supposedly occurred when he realized she might scratch him. Which is in itself bizarre that a small woman would be shot merely due to the threat of being scratched... and says nothing of why he shot 3 times one of which was clearly intended to kill.... but I digress.

So what was the plan for her if/when they got the right PIN number and got their whopping $400? Was it going to be an execution regardless- so she couldn't I.D. them? That would be a "planned" shooting. That's not what is implied by LT's supposed confession to the CI. Planning to kill AB would mean these guys were now in the business of taking hostages, and then executing them so as not to be I.D'd. Not making sense given what I've read about who they are. Too dangerous, too risky, too elaborate.

 

[MJPeony]

I think this cigar was planted. A burglar does not go inside someone's strange home and take out a cigar and not smoke it. If he stayed around and ate a bowl of ice cream or helped himself to a Popsicle, I could believe that. Not his own cigar tho. As it has been stated, LT was never once seen to be in a hurry. That tells me that he didn't leave the house in a hurry without taking his cigar with him. It was found at the home, on purpose. JMHO

I'm not tripped up by the cigar package. IIRC, the guys took oranges and drank beer in another house, so it's not a stretch for me to think they'd pull out a cigar. I mean, they were in AB's house for what...by reasonable estimations nearly 45 minutes? I'm just stuck on the motive for leaving a guy behind with her for so long and what the intended result would be in their minds.

 

[al66pine]

What did the perps plan to do after they got $ w her ATM/debit card (if they did not plan to kill her)?

....Yep. Same question here. ...
So what was the plan for her if/when they got the right PIN number and got their whopping $400? Was it going to be an execution regardless- so she couldn't I.D. them? That would be a "planned" shooting. That's not what is implied by LT's supposed confession to the CI. Planning to kill AB would mean these guys were now in the business of taking hostages, and then executing them so as not to be I.D'd. Not making sense given what I've read about who they are. Too dangerous, too risky, too elaborate.

^sbm bbm
If, before entering AB home, perp's plan was to kill her, would they have needed to take her hostage, to prevent her from ID'ing? Seems imo like perp(s) wd have killed her in the house & left her there - which is what perp(s) did. IDK.

By perps' thinking or lame logic, would it be better for perp(s) to take her away from house, kill her, & leave her elsewhere? Seems imo perp(s) wd realize that doing so wd expose perp(s) to further dangers of being ID'ed, say, on surv cams elsewhere. IDK.

IIRC, at house perps burgled earlier, same morning, right? one said (my paraphrasing) -
surv cam got my pix, so I will/am going to kill that woman.
Was that TGT (tough guy talk, false bravado)?
Or did the others intervene to prevent that, physically or by persuasion?
Or did disabling/destroying the cam prevent that?

Wish we had more hard facts about timing.

 

[MaxManning]

MM
You've made several good points about this case, but pls allow me to knit-pick one little part of your post.

^ sbm Do we or LE know as a fact that LT has not sexually assaulted anyone?
An 18 y/o could have one or more SA arrests as a juvie that would not be public knowledge.
Perhaps could have been 'adjudicated delinquent' as having committed one or more SA's - as a juvie. IDK.
IIUC, only his arrests from age 18y/o+ (or those where he was younger but charged as adult) would be public record. JM2cts, could be wrong.

Mos' def' agreeing w you - after a public indecency arrest, SA seems a somewhat likely progression.

Pls keep sharing your thoughts. Glad you're on W/S.

\

Agree with you, I would not be surprised in the least with ALL of these suspects not having even longer rap sheets that are not public because of their age at the time of earlier offenses.

I was just going with the only fact that we have about him, and even if it was just that, it certainly fits the profile of someone heading down a path that could lead to rape/sexual assault. imo

 

[MaxManning]

Thanks MM for your thoughts.

Some interesting points. Although it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't understand the risk of staying at the house in relation to needing cash. They needed cash, yes, but ATM's only let you withdraw $400 max anyway. Truly not worth the risk of dealing with a fighting victim. A fighting victim! Get the h*ll out of dodge and go somewhere else. Instead they turned it into a virtual hostage situation. The hostage element is a whole new level and it's tripping me up. It's bizarre. These guys, from what I've read, are young and sloppy (getting nabbed on security cams, ATM cams, leaving cigar packages behind, etc). Now they've started taking hostages while risking being found out? Weird. Couple hundred dollars isn't worth it. If you must, take the wallet like most other thieves and run. Take the laptop like most other thieves and run. Kicking around trying to get your victim to give you the right PIN number is lunacy. They had no guarantee she'd give it to them anyway.

These guys are clearly not that bright, but LT staying behind is not making sense to me.

We know that they went into a house that was occupied with sleeping people just a few hours earlier. I am sure they understand that they risk the chance of someone waking up. What else would possibly be their response to that, other than doing something to silence the person ? When a person robs someone, they typically hold them at gunpoint and ask for money or valuables, that kind of goes with the territory. Their intention was not to hole up in the house and wait for ransom, they just wanted to make sure the PIN was correct. That makes sense to me -- if you are a burglar.

I get what you are saying, but personally, I don't see these guys evaluating the risks the same way you are. Getting caught on an ATM cam - doesn't that seem utterly illogical ? Yet they did. You say $400 cash isn't worth it. to who ? you ? To them, it seems common behavior to take enormous risk of burglarizing homes with people in them and it was reported that they might even be charged in an earlier case where they used to live -- same circumstances where someone got raped. If it was them, which the methods were eerily similar, then they have actually been as brazen before. Didn't get caught.. so the next time do they feel more or less confident ?

It's pretty clear they have gotten away with a fair amount of burglaries in very risky situations. They seem like risk takers to me. To a non risk taker, I can see how it would be weird or odd. I am in that boat. But if I evaluate their actions based on what I know about them, none of it seems odd or weird to me. It seems like just what they have done all along, but in this case it hit a worst case scenario. The odds just came around to that.


Also, we have seen this very same scenario in other crimes and you see it on TV in crime dramas. The whole "tell me where your money is" and some of the guys go confirm it's there before leaving is is old as dirt. If they leave and she gave them the wrong pin, they get zero dollars.

Makes sense to me.

 

[MaxManning]

MJPeony - I just want you to know, I do get what you are saying. But I think I am long past the point of believing it's entirely possible these guys did everything that is described to have happened in terms of doing what they likely did all the time before that day.

Not saying I am sure that is how it happened, but just that I believe it's plausible and far from odd/weird given who they are before that night.

I do wish LE released more info about this case, and hopefully it would make things more clear. I myself have tons of questions, but none of them revolve around convincing me these guys were capable of this crime and dumb enough and brazen enough to do it as described.

 

[MJPeony]

....
I get what you are saying, but personally, I don't see these guys evaluating the risks the same way you are.

snipped for focus

Well, I guess it must just come down to that ^^^. The effect of being drugged out?, their inherent lack of logic?...something. I don't agree that their actions preceding this case make this case seem reasonable (i.e. it still does NOT in fact "make sense" to me and there are inconsistencies that continue to puzzle me), but I do get your point about my logic/or your logic not being a universal given. Frustrating not to have an understandable or even just comprehensible scenario in my mind to move forward with.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Cardinal47]

Thanks MM for your thoughts.

Some interesting points. Although it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't understand the risk of staying at the house in relation to needing cash. They needed cash, yes, but ATM's only let you withdraw $400 max anyway. Truly not worth the risk of dealing with a fighting victim. A fighting victim! Get the h*ll out of dodge and go somewhere else. Instead they turned it into a virtual hostage situation. The hostage element is a whole new level and it's tripping me up. It's bizarre. These guys, from what I've read, are young and sloppy (getting nabbed on security cams, ATM cams, leaving cigar packages behind, etc). Now they've started taking hostages while risking being found out? Weird. Couple hundred dollars isn't worth it. If you must, take the wallet like most other thieves and run. Take the laptop like most other thieves and run. Kicking around trying to get your victim to give you the right PIN number is lunacy. They had no guarantee she'd give it to them anyway.

These guys are clearly not that bright, but LT staying behind is not making sense to me.

None of it makes any sense and perhaps that's it. We've hit on it.

I keep wondering why when they made a pretty decent haul at the house two doors down from Amanda's that they stuck around.

Well LT stuck around. It would have been getting light out and seems like neighbors would be up and looking out their windows about that time.

One was burglary in a home where the owners were gone.

Then the Blackburn home turned into the killing fields. She was viciously attacked and her tooth knocked out and her panties on the floor beside her. Shot three times. One shot to the head.

Was LT gone crazy when his two cohorts drove away from the first house. Then returned to take the debit card and leave again. Kind of seems like it.

Again maybe I am trying to make sense out of it. Actually I am still in the dark about the burglaries so early in the morning. That always seemed a strange time.

 

[Cardinal47]

We know that they went into a house that was occupied with sleeping people just a few hours earlier. I am sure they understand that they risk the chance of someone waking up. What else would possibly be their response to that, other than doing something to silence the person ? When a person robs someone, they typically hold them at gunpoint and ask for money or valuables, that kind of goes with the territory. Their intention was not to hole up in the house and wait for ransom, they just wanted to make sure the PIN was correct. That makes sense to me -- if you are a burglar.

I get what you are saying, but personally, I don't see these guys evaluating the risks the same way you are. Getting caught on an ATM cam - doesn't that seem utterly illogical ? Yet they did. You say $400 cash isn't worth it. to who ? you ? To them, it seems common behavior to take enormous risk of burglarizing homes with people in them and it was reported that they might even be charged in an earlier case where they used to live -- same circumstances where someone got raped. If it was them, which the methods were eerily similar, then they have actually been as brazen before. Didn't get caught.. so the next time do they feel more or less confident ?

It's pretty clear they have gotten away with a fair amount of burglaries in very risky situations. They seem like risk takers to me. To a non risk taker, I can see how it would be weird or odd. I am in that boat. But if I evaluate their actions based on what I know about them, none of it seems odd or weird to me. It seems like just what they have done all along, but in this case it hit a worst case scenario. The odds just came around to that.


Also, we have seen this very same scenario in other crimes and you see it on TV in crime dramas. The whole "tell me where your money is" and some of the guys go confirm it's there before leaving is is old as dirt. If they leave and she gave them the wrong pin, they get zero dollars.

Makes sense to me.

Now you have me wondering why they didn't wake the occupants of the first house where the residents were sleeping and do what they did at Amanda's home.

There had to be a debit or credit card there also. That was early in the morning under cover of dark and there were the three of them.

Why didn't they go after them if it was money they were after?

 

[MaxManning]

Now you have me wondering why they didn't wake the occupants of the first house where the residents were sleeping and do what they did at Amanda's home.

There had to be a debit or credit card there also. That was early in the morning under cover of dark and there were the three of them.

Why didn't they go after them if it was money they were after?

Did the burglars know Amanda was in the house ? Was the goal to find someone home and awake ? But if they come in and amanda is home, awake and ready to scream, that changes everything. Things might have gone a similar way at the first house if the people woke up.

If amanda went back to bed, lights off, wouldn't be hard to believe they thought the house was empty when davey left.

If lights were on, then that's a different story. But we don't know those details.

But if we are looking for a plausible scenario, one might be - they enter the house, discover amanda is home and awake, now plans have changed and they deal with it accordingly. In that scenario, then the first thing they likely do is threaten her in some way to avoid screaming, running around etc. Hitting her with the gun in the mouth is an example of such a action.

None of that sounds implausible to me. Not saying it's how it went down, but certainly not unreasonable actions. Once they have her under control, of course a burglar might try to maximize their loot. Cash possibly being preferable.

So it's not like they went in any of the houses saying "our goal is to get debit cards" etc, but rather the circumstances led to them making opportunistic modifications to their plan based on how things played out. Then when Taylor is alone with here, it's possible he saw it as an opportunity to sexually assault her. I just don't think it's crazy to think that criminals do even crazier things when the adrenaline is pumping and things get out of control. If she makes an attempt to hit him or get the gun, doesn't sound crazy that he might shoot her trying to keep her from doing so. The plan going into the house doesn't need to be rape or murder for things to spin in that direction with a given criminal. Taylor's past sexual offense indicates to me that given an opportunity to do something worse, he just might do it.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Did the burglars know Amanda was in the house ? Was the goal to find someone home and awake ? But if they come in and amanda is home, awake and ready to scream, that changes everything. Things might have gone a similar way at the first house if the people woke up.

If amanda went back to bed, lights off, wouldn't be hard to believe they thought the house was empty when davey left.

If lights were on, then that's a different story. But we don't know those details.

But if we are looking for a plausible scenario, one might be - they enter the house, discover amanda is home and awake, now plans have changed and they deal with it accordingly. In that scenario, then the first thing they likely do is threaten her in some way to avoid screaming, running around etc. Hitting her with the gun in the mouth is an example of such a action.

None of that sounds implausible to me. Not saying it's how it went down, but certainly not unreasonable actions. Once they have her under control, of course a burglar might try to maximize their loot. Cash possibly being preferable.

So it's not like they went in any of the houses saying "our goal is to get debit cards" etc, but rather the circumstances led to them making opportunistic modifications to their plan based on how things played out. Then when Taylor is alone with here, it's possible he saw it as an opportunity to sexually assault her. I just don't think it's crazy to think that criminals do even crazier things when the adrenaline is pumping and things get out of control. If she makes an attempt to hit him or get the gun, doesn't sound crazy that he might shoot her trying to keep her from doing so. The plan going into the house doesn't need to be rape or murder for things to spin in that direction with a given criminal. Taylor's past sexual offense indicates to me that given an opportunity to do something worse, he just might do it.

Since the home is 2 story. And it was 6:30 or so. They had to figure that someone would be home. Jmo

But since the drugs were probably wearing off. And no pawn shops open at that time of morning. They probably just wanted more cash by any means.

But your post is spot on.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Now you have me wondering why they didn't wake the occupants of the first house where the residents were sleeping and do what they did at Amanda's home.

There had to be a debit or credit card there also. That was early in the morning under cover of dark and there were the three of them.

Why didn't they go after them if it was money they were after?

The drugs probably were not wearing off at that point. Jmo. The come down gets people more antsy. Jmo.

Now I only say drugs since sober folks would probably have called it a night after getting the tvs and laptop from the other home. Jmo

 

[Cardinal47]

The drugs probably were not wearing off at that point. Jmo. The come down gets people more antsy. Jmo.

Now I only say drugs since sober folks would probably have called it a night after getting the tvs and laptop from the other home. Jmo

We have never heard drugs were involved have we? That's something being assumed.

Re the early morning rash of burglaries that is the first thing that is so strange to me. I know a couple of appraisers and they always go into the ghetto areas early in the morning because most folks that don't work are sleeping then. A bit safer for the appraising work.

Then they go into a home close by with I think a mother and a couple of daughters sleeping and steal only a car.

Drive quite a distance from that first house to enter a home where the occupants are gone at 5am..out of town. Load up tv's and laptops. Eat oranges and no hurry.

Then go into Amanda's home knock her tooth out, remove her clothing and shoot her three times. Take her Debit card.

Those are three completely different burglaries by the same goons.

Why so different? Why so violent with Amanda?

From what I read early on Davey and Amanda did their early morning devotions and with him leaving to go to the gym and the baby still sleeping I would think she would be in a peaceful mood.

We know she saw the good in everybody and I don't see her violantly attacking LT. I would think she would want to 'save' him. Of course she was pregnant and had a tiny one in the bedroom upstairs so maybe that mother tigress came out of nowhere.

Also something I think about is Amanda was a restorer of furniture and her husband just a pastor at a small church I think about 100 members. They had no money to speak of. She worked in her garage fixing broken things.

Whatever made them think there would be $400 in the account??? When we were young and raising our children we would be lucky to have $40 bucks in an account.

Some way I think there is a connection. Might be through the church or the gym or somebody they counseled. Might be somebody in the neighborhoods nephew or cousin. Somebody bad knew something about the Blackburns. I think somebody also knew that house two doors away had owners out of town and that's why they took their time. MOO

 

[MJPeony]

Re: drugs. TMK, it's not been confirmed there were drugs involved, other than alcohol. But we know they drank beer from a house that morning. Also, IIRC, LT supposedly said that he was "too messed up" (paraphrase) to remember whether he'd been driving around in the Sebring on the cul-de-sac. Sorry, I'm not able to go back and find the direct link to this at the moment. It's all in the PC docs.

As for whether the guys had some connection to the Blackburns, one possibility that's occurred to me from the beginning is whether someone was jealous of DB or out to get him and was targeting AB to hurt DB. Just a thought. No reason for me to believe it, other than that DB and AB seemed to have, in many ways, a perfect image. Maybe that could have caused jealously for someone. Someone with psychological or severe emotional disturbance who would perhaps choose to take a violent approach to dealing with it. IDK. All MOO.

 

[Lilibet]

I'm inclined to keep it simple and assume this is a random crime. I don't see these guys as planning to "get" Davey for any reason. They are two-bit opportunistic criminals IMO. I can imagine them thinking that anyone with a nice home has at least a few hundred dollars in their account. We know from personal experience that it isn't necessarily the case, but I don't think they would realize that. I'll be very surprised if it turns out that this was a targeted hit. JMO

 

[MaxManning]

Since the home is 2 story. And it was 6:30 or so. They had to figure that someone would be home. Jmo

I think it's possible, but 2 houses in the cul de sac before them didn't have anyone home. We don't know for sure if they saw davey leave or not, but I think that would be extremely plausible. If she went back to bed or never was out of bed, then why would it be implausible for the lights to be off and the house to look empty ?

But at the same time, I think that Taylor as he's being described by the others and now with our knowledge that he will likely be charged with another rape in a similar situation... Maybe he did know she was home and rape/sexual assault was the motive. Him tossing credit cards etc was a means of getting the other 2 out of his way for a while. I think that's plausible too.

 

[MaxManning]

As for whether the guys had some connection to the Blackburns, one possibility that's occurred to me from the beginning is whether someone was jealous of DB or out to get him and was targeting AB to hurt DB. Just a thought. No reason for me to believe it, other than that DB and AB seemed to have, in many ways, a perfect image. Maybe that could have caused jealously for someone. Someone with psychological or severe emotional disturbance who would perhaps choose to take a violent approach to dealing with it. IDK. All MOO.

I kind of think all the activity before the blackburn's house makes that not very likely. I think if that is the motive, you just go to that house and do what you came to do.

Not sure if anyone has seen reports of kindergartner killed in Kentucky, but thats an example of what I would expect if someone came to kill someone. Everyone is searching for a motive there and there is talk of mental illness, but I just find it so hard to believe that a man would make such decisive decisions to kill a young child in his sleep. Maybe his father has gang ties ? Maybe the kid saw something this guy or a gang didn't want him to tell anyone about ?

But in this case, I see an awful lot of activity before the killing that would seem to just reduce the chances of accomplishing your objective, if you are doing this out of jealousy.

 

[nerdgirl]

I feel like we know these guys after watching the press conference over and over...


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