IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #4

[al66pine]

dbm

 

[al66pine]

dbm

 

[Catmommy]

Well even if her lil noggin was huge and she had an undisclosed medical condition one thing is certain; that baby didn't jump.

 

[al66pine]

Exterior Vids. Sufficient Evd re SA?
Trying to fix broken quote from post by Arkay:
"... video, which would presumably capture Chloe's entire fall and the impact,....I hope such an exterior view will end any lawyer posturing,.... As to the Wiegand family, I would say IMO seeing such a video is their right, but I hope they choose not to see it"

@Arkay sbm Agreeing re (personally) not wanting to see impact vid. But any vid of SA holding her outside window and losing grip? Any vid taken from ship's exterior showing ^ w toddler outside the window frame (outside ship's outer wall? terminology? outer hull?) would seem to be conclusive evidence of G'pa's negligence.
After seeing the vids we've seen, if (hypothetical) jurors have doubts about SA's guilt, I would hope any vid's like ^ would help them reach a guilty verdict. jmo

 

[beatrixpotter]

I would call this a tragic accident if Chloe had been sat on the wooden rail and been held with two hands by a non-moving SA. Sadly, if he had done even that, Chloe would probably still be here.

His placing her beyond the wood railing changed everything! Then add on his back and forth body movements!

Yes, what sealed it for me was those videos and seeing how his right arm was pulled back far enough to see his elbows. The arm constantly moving. What the heck was he doing while precariously balancing a toddler 11 stories above ground?

 

[IceIce9]

Well even if her lil noggin was huge and she had an undisclosed medical condition one thing is certain; that baby didn't jump.

Right, it was just an observation. I was just wondering if she could have had current or past medical problems.

 

[beatrixpotter]

For example,



“Macrocephaly is usually a symptom of other conditions. Benign familial macrocephaly is an inherited condition. It happens in families predisposed to having larger heads. Sometimes there is a problem with the brain, such as hydrocephalus or excess fluid.”

I'm positive this child did not have macrocephaly. She's just a petite baby without a lot of baby fat on her body or her face/cheeks and that makes her (top of the) head look bigger. It's really not an uncommon appearance in thinner babies.

 

[jeena]

I agree with you. I've stayed away from this thread because of the cruel comments being made about the parents being greedy and that's why they filed the lawsuit. The parents are victims. This is a family very clearly in despair and Puerto Rico prosecutors are playing a very cruel game of "piling on."

Similar comments were made about Lane Grave's parents when he was killed by an alligator at Disney World. That they should have known there were very real alligators lurking in the lagoon in a park where everything else is pure fantasy. There is a now wall around that lagoon and a memorial to the child that is a sculpture of a lighthouse. The same logo is for the Lane Thomas Foundation. The Foundation is doing wonderful work providing financial support to parents of hospitalized children in need of life-saving organ transplants.

The wait of six months before filing misdemeanor charges is an indication to me that Puerto Rico's prosecutors have a political agenda. Shortly after Chloe's death there were massive protests in San Juan over corrupt government officials. The situation was dangerous and the cruise lines decided not to dock there. That cost San Juan a lot of tourism dollars. What better way to retaliate against the cruise line than exploit a grieving family that were their guests and create international publicity over an accidental death.

I think the wrongful death lawsuit will be settled very quickly and quietly and the result will be windows that can not be opened in areas where children might be. I also believe the parents will do something positive to ensure the legacy of their beautiful Chloe lives on.

JMO
Disney World unveils lighthouse sculpture to honor boy killed by alligator

Puerto Rico protests: Royal Caribbean, MSC Cruises cancel stops

In the Disney incident, the parents were victims because there were no warning signs of alligators at the lagoon. In the RCCL incident, the passengers were warned not to go on or over the railing, so CW's parents were the victims of SA's ignoring rules, or not paying attention to them, they aren't the victims of the cruise line, imo.
I was mortified regarding the gator incident having been in that lagoon several times in small boats, along with walking and lounging along the edge. Additionally, there is a u-tube video of a Disney employee trying to coax a gator away from a ride full of people in Disney World!

 

[LietKynes]

Yes, what sealed it for me was those videos and seeing how his right arm was pulled back far enough to see his elbows. The arm constantly moving. What the heck was he doing while precariously balancing a toddler 11 stories above ground?

Agreed.
Looks like the initial reports by the ships' employees and PR LE were right.
"...an act of games..."

 

[Lilibet]

I wasn’t trying to be unkind, I was wondering if she might have had a medical condition. In some of the photos I have seen her waist looks very petite and tiny but her head looks large by comparison.

I’ve noticed this too, and I think it’s relevant. Toddlers are known to be “top heavy.” Since it appears that Chloe was held out the window, her larger head could have factored into SA dropping her, tipping the balance, so to speak. Of course, she never should have been held there in the first place, but it was something that I thought of when seeing her photos. Regardless, she was an exceptionally cute little girl who should still be alive and who no doubt would have “grown into” her head.

http://nchharchive.org/Portals/0/Contents/CPSC_Drowning_and_Buckets.pdf

 

[MsMarple]

Yes. You would think so. I'm always a bit puzzled how some people can't seem to tell she's outside. It looks so obvious to me.

Here's my problem: From the side view I can't see the railing at all. So I can't definitely say he didn't lift her onto the railing but rather held her outside the window.

From the other video shot from behind I can barely see the railing and it does look to me like that's where he sat Chloe. And that jibes with the CBS reporter's description. Yeah, the reporter could have lied but if he did then his reputation will be in a world of hurt if SA's case goes to trial.

 

[IceIce9]

I’ve noticed this too, and I think it’s relevant. Toddlers are known to be “top heavy.” Since it appears that Chloe was held out the window, her larger head could have factored into SA dropping her, tipping the balance, so to speak. Of course, she never should have been held there in the first place, but it was something that I thought of when seeing her photos. Regardless, she was an exceptionally cute little girl who should still be alive and who no doubt would have “grown into” her head.

http://nchharchive.org/Portals/0/Contents/CPSC_Drowning_and_Buckets.pdf

If she was “top heavy” and bobbed her large head forward while SA was holding her outside the window, could it have been enough to cause him to lose his hold on her?

 

[Safeguard]

Here's my problem: From the side view I can't see the railing at all. So I can't definitely say he didn't lift her onto the railing but rather held her outside the window.

From the other video shot from behind I can barely see the railing and it does look to me like that's where he sat Chloe. And that jibes with the CBS reporter's description. Yeah, the reporter could have lied but if he did then his reputation will be in a world of hurt if SA's case goes to trial.

The reporter didnt lie. But he was given the short speedy version, not the "leaked" one. And SA does sit/stand her on the rail for a second or two, but then he LEANS way out, beyond the rail,and that is when she fell.

 

[Lilibet]

Here's my problem: From the side view I can't see the railing at all. So I can't definitely say he didn't lift her onto the railing but rather held her outside the window.

From the other video shot from behind I can barely see the railing and it does look to me like that's where he sat Chloe. And that jibes with the CBS reporter described. Yeah, the reporter could have lied but if he did then his reputation will be in a world of hurt if SA's case goes to trial.

Are we perhaps looking at a different video? The side view video I’ve watched (shot from his right side facing the Squeeze bar) shows him lift her through the open window over his head in one motion. I don’t see him sitting her on the railing even for a moment. I don’t see Chloe again after SA puts her past the window frame. What I do see is SA’S elbow coming back inside, indicating (to me) that he is possibly holding her with the other arm. After moving sort of in and out several times with his other arm outside, eventually he falls backward to the deck floor.
Video Releases Of Toddler Who Fell Out Of Grandpa's Arms On Cruise Ship • The Hollywood Unlocked

 

[Lilibet]

If she was “top heavy” and bobbed her large head forward while SA was holding her outside the window, could it have been enough to cause him to lose his hold on her?

I don’t know if it would have been enough, but the thought occurred to me that it might have. But any wiggling or struggling could have been enough too. It was a phenomenally stupid thing for him to do, in any case, with absolutely no thought given to Chloe’s safety.

 

[al66pine]

Head & Body Weight? A Binary Decision

I'm positive this child did not have macrocephaly. She's just a petite baby without a lot of baby fat on her body or her face/cheeks and that makes her (top of the) head look bigger. It's really not an uncommon appearance in thinner babies.

Medical condition or not, seems what previous posts described is a big toddler head being heavy in relation to body weight. Does it matter whether she was a butterball or painfully thin?

Once he stuck his head out/thru window, SA was not doing calculations dependent on locations of ounces of body weight and degrees of angles to make decisions about placing her somewhere.

He faced a binary decision: suspend Chloe over a 100+ ft drop, or not. He made the wrong choice. jmo.

 

[Safeguard]

she never should have been held there in the first place, but it was something that I thought of when seeing her photos. Regardless, she was an exceptionally cute little girl who should still be alive and who no doubt would have “grown into” her head

Respectfully s/b/bm
The bolded is the only thing relevant really. imo. All toddlers are top heavy.

Perhaps I'm just being overly sensitive about the inference that she looks like she has a disability. I don't understand why that would matter. She looks like her mom to me.

 

[BeachSky]

Here's my problem: From the side view I can't see the railing at all. So I can't definitely say he didn't lift her onto the railing but rather held her outside the window.
From the other video shot from behind I can barely see the railing and it does look to me like that's where he sat Chloe. And that jibes with the CBS reporter's description. Yeah, the reporter could have lied but if he did then his reputation will be in a world of hurt if SA's case goes to trial.

I thought I read that these released videos are copies & not as clear as the ones the Cruise line have turned over.
MOO

 

[Safeguard]

Like, perhaps water on the brain or some kind of syndrome from her premature birth? NOT BEING UNKIND, just making an observation. What was UNKIND was to drop her out the window and cut her little life short. JMOO

No need to shout. Also no need to wonder if she was deformed or disabled. But feel free. Someone in the last thread commented on her "stupid hat". I guess her appearance bothers some, I don't see it as a factor myself.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

No need to shout. Also no need to wonder if she was deformed or disabled. But feel free. Someone in the last thread commented on her "stupid hat". I guess her appearance bothers some, I don't see it as a factor myself.

I didn't intend to shout. I was just emphasizing. I do wonder if she was disabled, because that may or may not have been a factor in the situation that transpired. JMOO