IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[MsMarple]

You can’t substitute a range, I don’t think. One year. I think this site is like our state laws published by the year. Updated each year. But our appeals to go to state appellate level than SCt. This looks better bc PR has it by the year, in one place for all the appellate cases, the PR supreme court cases. From what I can guess at in Spanish. Small US territory so one publication. Most of our state
publications are separated by court, level etc. too much into one doc.
Anyway, maybe not. I suppose you could check index.
Cornell Law School has a GREAT site. Don’t know if they keep PR info.
No more sleuthing time. I’m catching up with other stuff. Real employment tomorrow.

edited to add: took a look around at site. Rabbit trails. But appears all there for PR. Cases? Maybe, too.

I slotted in one year at a time, not a range. So far everything I've found, on that site and elsewhere either has the old info or 2012 info. It was pretty clear that the governor signed the new penalties into law so all I can think of is they are slated to take effect later, maybe 2020?

Before it became part of the U.S. Puerto Rico used the Spanish Civil Code. When it became a US territory, it incorporated the common law system into the civil system. IOW I'm stymied. I'll just mosey along and follow what gets reported in msm...

 

[SouthAussie]

Winkelman isn't part of the defense team and in fact doesn't represent SA in any capacity. Given that DIL is a prosecutor and would be well aware of what's going legally, I've found it interesting how much Winkleman is doing that impacts SA even though he doesn't represent SA. Ordinarily I'd think the family was being bamboozled by a fast talking lawyer, but not in this case.

I agree with your statement.

I think she is a switched-on woman - despite the tragedy of Chloe's death - and understands perfectly what is happening in both the prosecutorial and litigation cases.

She needs to have Royal Caribbean found to be at fault, because suing her stepfather is out of the question. The ramifications that might have on her own mother are too much. Therefore, her stepfather's criminal case story is being told prematurely.

And, for her, the lawsuit is necessary because she is not yet ready to accept that what happened that day could have been avoided in at least several ways ... and none of those ways involve Royal Caribbean's window use or design.

 

[mickey2942]

It's so crazy, especially if he was offered a plea deal as his attorney said. Msm said nothing was in writing so it's not clear if one was actually on the table.:
ABC reported that Anello’s defense attorney, Jose Perez, told reporters he plans to put together a team of experts to analyze the scene of the incident in preparation for a trial.

Perez also told ABC, however, the two parties have discussed an agreement in “general terms.” The prosecutor, Ivette Nieves, told the news station the prosecution has not ruled out a deal.
Attorney says grandfather of Granger toddler who fell from ship is not interested in plea deal

If he took one he would get no jail time and minimum probation. But he would have to plead guilty to the charge. It's a misdemeanor for goodness sakes, not a felony. It makes no sense. What you said about SA "rolling the dice" and hoping for continuances until the civil suit is over.

At the same time if that is the case then it implies that he isn't all that confident that he'll get a not guilty verdict. On some level he may very well understand how reckless his actions were.

But if it's all about the civil suit and money then good luck to him for sacrificing his freedom for the family's benefit. IMO and only my opinion it tells me the parents don't have his best interest in mind no matter what they say in public.

P.S. I *do* believe he should sit in jail for a period.

I believe that if SA doesn't run with the plea deal, he may very well "sit in jail for a period". Or longer.

 

[LietKynes]

I believe that if SA doesn't run with the plea deal, he may very well "sit in jail for a period". Or longer.

bbm
Agreed.
But he won't do that; imo.
Wouldn't there be a possibility of the lawsuit being dropped ?
And they can't have that.

 

[sl222]

One normal response to a child falling like this would be to immediately cry out for someone to help her, as opposed to reacting as immediately accepting that she was beyond help. Even when someone is dead and beyond help, you still find yourself trying to save the person. I think it's a common phenomenon. And can even be seen in some forms in the days following a tragedy.

In this case falling on the floor was probably partly shock and emotional collapse, but is there also a measure of self-protection? You can't fall out a window if you're on the floor... just after you've been leaning your body and your grandchild's all the way over and out of the window and seen how very far down it is to the ground.

SA's reaction is in contrast to Chloe's 10-year-old dear brother whose first thought was to go out the window after her to save her.

The video is so damning and as we suspected all along, shockingly worse than we ever thought. But still way worse. An early article in DM stated that the prosecutors were considering all possible charges including murder and it's not hard to see why.

I hope you saw the 2 female prosecutors answering the question about the plea. They aren't buying any of these excuses. But still if a plea doesn't happen, then taking my cues from the above posters, maybe he'll just get 3 to 6 months. And maybe this story is not going to go away for a very, very long time but will resurface with this trial, later his release, aftermath, more publicity to try to honor Chloe, when IMO to honor her most would have been completely different than what's happening. But they're her parents/family so they're going to do what they think is best.

I just wish this story would finally rest in peace. It's so awful. There have been other horrific stories similar to this, but nothing I can think of has ever been so drawn out like this one unless it was an unsolved crime. This one is going to continue to be in the news for at least a full year and maybe more depending on whether someone writes a book / more tv appearances / etc.

I sympathize with the parents and family for this terrible loss but since they're human and they're also good parents, they're going to have overwhelming anger SA for life, and probably a lot of them are getting or will eventually get therapy to help them through this. It must be so hard. And IMO they are victims here despite the lawsuit, etc., they are victims of what this man did.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I agree with your statement.

I think she is a switched-on woman - despite the tragedy of Chloe's death - and understands perfectly what is happening in both the prosecutorial and litigation cases.

She needs to have Royal Caribbean found to be at fault, because suing her stepfather is out of the question. The ramifications that might have on her own mother are too much. Therefore, her stepfather's criminal case story is being told prematurely.

And, for her, the lawsuit is necessary because she is not yet ready to accept that what happened that day could have been avoided in at least several ways ... and none of those ways involve Royal Caribbean's window use or design.

She’s on Face bo ok. Some friend talked to her about it being two year birthday. They have a site about Chloe. I felt bad for KW. First time it came home to me that there could be another side to her. Mom.

 

[SouthAussie]

She’s on Face bo ok. Some friend talked to her about it being two year birthday. They have a site about Chloe. I felt bad for KW. First time it came home to me that there could be another side to her. Mom.

I think as mothers, our children and our responsibility towards them always come first. They are joy in our lives.
Our professional roles do not take the lead priority.
I was merely stating that as an intelligent, educated woman and prosecutor, she certainly understands what is going on with both the criminal case and the lawsuit. And a seemingly quick decision has been made to pursue Royal Caribbean, as opposed to accepting that there is solely someone else who is negligently at fault in this horrific tragedy.

 

[Kakidoll]

You can add me to the group that does NOT believe that mom and dad have NOT seen the video's. Especially a cop dad. He'd want to know the TRUTH and not just take it from a stepgrandfather. He'd want to see with his own eyes. And i do believe Mom as a prosecutor would also. Grandma would NOT. But in both of their fields, they've seen horrible things and do know how to separate personal from 'business'. My child, i would seek every ounce of truth i could. I would not stop until i HAD the answers and saw ALL the evidence. Same as in trials when family have to sit in the courtroom and hear graphic details of autopsy etc.

 

[neesaki]

I believe that if SA doesn't run with the plea deal, he may very well "sit in jail for a period". Or longer.

I wonder if Chloe’s parents are encouraging him not to take the plea.

 

[Safeguard]

That was the whole point of that post. Not that there is anything wrong with the photos, just that we have absolutely no evidence that SA was ever a lone caregiver to Chloe, and therefore never THOUGHT like a caregiver. Those two photos were used to show that he got to enjoy being in her company but clearly let everyone else worry about her safety, so possibly, for whatever possible reason, the family didn't typically leave her alone with SA.

Imho The photos are just normal cute pics. They show nothing. Certainly not that he, "clearly let everyone else worry about her safety" Those pictures could not possibly tell us that.

Someone took those pictures, so yes, of course, there were "others" around.

Was Sam supposed to take a lot of selfies when he was alone with Chloe?

If he had, there would be people jumping all over him for that.

 

[Safeguard]

Set sentimentality aside and watch the video as if you didn’t know it was a relative who picked Chloe up.

Watching the video as if it was a complete stranger, wouldn’t you thing he looked to make sure no one was watching, picked her up, held her up over his head and chucked her out the window?

A senseless murder!

No. He is in no way behaving furtively. He looks tired, not devious.

Why wasn't he charged with murder, if it appears so obvious he deliberately murdered her?

 

[neesaki]

No. He is in no way behaving furtively. He looks tired, not devious.

Why wasn't he charged with murder, if it appears so obvious he deliberately murdered her?

To me his actions appeared quite deliberate. And if he was so tired, it makes no sense why he would bother to hoist a toddler way up in the air and out that window. It would have taken less energy to either hold her hand or hold her on his hip while standing back from the window. Either of those and the sweet baby would still be alive.

 

[Safeguard]

Here in Boston, on Christmas Day, a mom tossed her 18 month old son, and four year old daughter, off the Northeastern University parking garage, (Nine stories!), then she jumped after them. That is what "deliberate" looks like.
DA identifies mother, children found dead after murder suicide

SA surely had more options to murder his tiny granddaughter, than to wait for a family vaca, and leisurely stroll the area, hang out the window in a relaxed manner and then take his sweet time thirty seconds holding her outside? He's an overconfident idiot and he majority fck up imo. But I am not seeing a Chris Watts, just sayin...

 

[SouthAussie]

You can add me to the group that does NOT believe that mom and dad have NOT seen the video's. Especially a cop dad. He'd want to know the TRUTH and not just take it from a stepgrandfather. He'd want to see with his own eyes. And i do believe Mom as a prosecutor would also. Grandma would NOT. But in both of their fields, they've seen horrible things and do know how to separate personal from 'business'. My child, i would seek every ounce of truth i could. I would not stop until i HAD the answers and saw ALL the evidence. Same as in trials when family have to sit in the courtroom and hear graphic details of autopsy etc.

Yes, I think they have seen the videos as well.

Last night I had gone back to look at old articles as I had been reading back, and saw so many things that are not mentioned any more in MSM. I wanted to see where those things came from.

I noticed that the family were seeking the videos very early on, before they left PR on the Thursday following the tragedy.

Winkleman said one of his associates was in contact with the company.
He wants it to release surveillance footage of the incident to the family.
Police investigating death of Indiana tot who fell from cruise ship have not ruled out murder | Daily Mail Online

 

[Midwestmom2019]

No. He is in no way behaving furtively. He looks tired, not devious.

Why wasn't he charged with murder, if it appears so obvious he deliberately murdered her?

Have to prove INTENT to kill. He intended to put her outside of the window. He didn’t intend to kill her, at least I hope not. But there is so much that still bothers me....

How would they prove intent? A motive to kill her is a good start. Maybe there is a list for the top motives for murder somewhere on the internet.

 

[LietKynes]

"There's no plea deal in writing yet, according to the attorney representing the Indiana grandfather. But he tells CBS News the agreement would require Anello to plead guilty to negligent homicide in the death of Wiegand. In exchange, he would get no jail time and minimum probation and supervision."

Great. He should definitely do a plea.

bbm
Ita. ^^^

But how could he ? The parents would lose untold millions.
The lawsuit said they could ask for unlimited damages for the ships' causing their daughters' death.
Unlimited.
If not for RCCL , the mom and daughter were going to go to the movies and watch "Frozen 2"; and she also said if it were not for the ship--- her daughter would be alive.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Have to prove INTENT to kill. He intended to put her outside of the window. He didn’t intend to kill her, at least I hope not. But there is so much that still bothers me....
How would they prove intent? A motive to kill her is a good start. Maybe there is a list for the top motives for murder somewhere on the internet.

Love. Lust. Loathing. Loot.

 

[justbreathe]

Here in Boston, on Christmas Day, a mom tossed her 18 month old son, and four year old daughter, off the Northeastern University parking garage, (Nine stories!), then she jumped after them. That is what "deliberate" looks like.
DA identifies mother, children found dead after murder suicide

SA surely had more options to murder his tiny granddaughter, than to wait for a family vaca, and leisurely stroll the area, hang out the window in a relaxed manner and then take his sweet time thirty seconds holding her outside? He's an overconfident idiot and he majority fck up imo. But I am not seeing a Chris Watts, just sayin...

Maybe he was having second thoughts? Wondering if he really could do it?

 

[LietKynes]

I think I would take the deal if I were he. It does not admit guilt or harmful intent, it just admits that he was negligent. Kids get in all sorts of trouble due to new parents or grandparents, etc., not knowing little things to do to help toddlers and older kids not harm themselves around the house -- it doesn't mean the adults wanted the child to get hurt, it just means that they forgot, didn't know, were surprised by a visit which included a toddler, etc.
Negligence does not imply intent. This is the best offer he'll get, IMO.
Go for it, Grandpa.

bbm

I'm not a betting person.... but how much would you wager he won't ????
They cannot let the lawsuit and hoped-for monies slip away after all of their hard efforts.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I think I would take the deal if I were he. It does not admit guilt or harmful intent, it just admits that he was negligent. Kids get in all sorts of trouble due to new parents or grandparents, etc., not knowing little things to do to help toddlers and older kids not harm themselves around the house -- it doesn't mean the adults wanted the child to get hurt, it just means that they forgot, didn't know, were surprised by a visit which included a toddler, etc.
Negligence does not imply intent. This is the best offer he'll get, IMO.
Go for it, Grandpa.

I differ with your interpretation of the laws in PR. He’d be admitting that he’s guilty of negligent homicide. That’s a crime in PR. Carries penalties including but not limited to incarceration.

IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand
Misdemeanor that carries felony penalties.