IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[Fidobell]

They will stand with the killer of their baby daughter. For as long as it takes.

I feel physically ill.

Chloe is dead and no one not even her parents are fighting her corner . Don't disrespect her life . Yes he put your baby girl in danger and you've paid the ultimate price . SA has to face the consequences , and in turn the family too

 

[justice4allnow]

Are they going to argue a sticker on the windowsill would have stopped him?

We know that he ignored speed limit signs, why would a sign on board the ship gain his compliance?

 

[Fidobell]

They will stand with the killer of their baby daughter. For as long as it takes.

I feel physically ill.

Chloe is dead and no one not even her parents are fighting her corner . Don't disrespect her life . Yes he put your baby girl in danger and you've paid the ultimate price . SA has to face the consequences , and in turn the family too

it's 9 inches from the edge of the wood railing to the edge of the window sill. The upper body of an average height man is longer than 9 inches. It's not hard to lean forward and poke your head out the window, or at a minimum come *so* close to the window you would literally squash your face up against the glass if there actually was a closed window there. Somehow this narrative has shifted from a 51 year old man recklessly holding a baby near an open window "playing a game" with her to an elderly, colorblind grandfather who "thought there was a window there" and a family more interested in $$$ from a cruise line than examining what is mentally wrong with a man that would do something so reckless with their child!

This is exactly how I feel , thank you for putting into words my thoughts on this.

 

[TDoc72]

Emphasis mine above.

A comment about the windows;

They are big windows. Contrary to downplaying the size of the windows the MW filing actually tries to emphasize the size of the windows. He includes a whole bunch of photos claiming to show what one would see when standing against the rail and they are photos showing absolutely nothing but the sea. No window frames, no glass, no railing, no adjacent windows. Just water. IMO he did this on purpose to try and show that SA wouldn’t have had anything contrasting in his field of view to distinguish glass from no glass. He wants to make you think SA would be seeing nothing but the view outside the window. Of course they’re narrow angle photos probably taken with a phone. Nothing like a human eye which has peripherally a much wider field of view. If SA has his hands cupped around his eyes that’s all he might have seen. MW wants to make it look like SA would not have seen the frames or adjacent glass. It fits their narrative.

He shouldn’t have seen water, blue or not. He should’ve seen PUERTO RICO.

When I first saw that, in my opinion, obscene and perverse doll and the way it was dressed in the “recreation,” I gave the parents the benefit of the doubt that they were not involved in the particulars of it. JMHO now that they have gone on public record basically endorsing it by calling it “evidence,” they appear to be so preoccupied with SA that they are essentially okay with their 18-month old daughter being represented in an most inappropriate manner.

IMO a doll wearing a bikini isn’t obscene or perverse. People wear them every day, including children. Chloe herself was wearing a swimsuit. But they should’ve used a toddler-like doll instead of a young woman/mermaid. Does anyone know her height? I think they used this doll that was 32” but obviously not wearing her mermaid tail. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Disney-P...-Little-Mermaid-30-Year-Anniversary/858382392

 

[MsBetsy]

In the video where Grandfather is walking toward the windows, does it look like he is aiming for the opened window, or the nearest window, or just a random window, or the only window where there is room to stand at the railing?

In the video I saw it's hard to tell where he is looking because it's blurry and I can't see his eyes.

He just follows Chloe closely as she walks towards the window.

I don't think it was the only window where there was room to stand at the railing. What attracted her there in the first place is hard to say.

Imo

 

[ZoriahNZ]

I think they mean he stood alone looking out the window for 30 seconds. I think he hoisted her from the floor then immediately thrust her forward to look out the obviously opened window.

I haven't read the RCCL court filing myself, but it's claimed there that SA leaned out of the window for 8 seconds before picking CW up, hoisting her over the railing and holding her at/out of the window for 34 seconds. This was not something that happened suddenly as soon as he held her over the rail. Contrary to what Winkleman would have us believe. In the video SA clearly rocks her back and forth like it's some sort of game he's playing with her. Or working up the courage...YMMV.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

IMO a doll wearing a bikini isn’t obscene or perverse. People wear them every day, including children. Chloe herself was wearing a swimsuit. But they should’ve used a toddler-like doll instead of a young woman/mermaid.

Bikinis I have no objection to. If, and that’s a really big if for this middle-aged “fluffy” woman, I had the figure, I might consider wearing one.
I called the selected doll obscene and perverse because using an obviously post pubescent doll in a bikini as a replacement for an 18 month girl is just that to me.

 

[oviedo]

I think they mean he stood alone looking out the window for 30 seconds. I think he hoisted her from the floor then immediately thrust her forward to look out the obviously opened window.

It’s in the media thread - he held her outside the window for 34 seconds

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

@TDoc72, thank you for responding and giving me an opportunity to clarify my posted thoughts!

One thought I like to have is that over at RCCL staff are determined to fight and to win this not only for the obvious business reasons but, also, Chloe deserves better than the priorities her family, blood kin no less, appear to have.

Just. My. Thoughts. and Opinions.

 

[neesaki]

He shouldn’t have seen water, blue or not. He should’ve seen PUERTO RICO.


IMO a doll wearing a bikini isn’t obscene or perverse. People wear them every day, including children. Chloe herself was wearing a swimsuit. But they should’ve used a toddler-like doll instead of a young woman/mermaid. Does anyone know her height? I think they used this doll that was 32” but obviously not wearing her mermaid tail. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Disney-P...-Little-Mermaid-30-Year-Anniversary/858382392

All due respect.... the doll wouldn't be obscene or perverse, except, that they used an adult doll to represent an 18 month old toddler. Maybe you're not aware of it, what comes to mind to those of us who follow child exploitation and sexual abuse cases on this forum and elsewhere.

That the attorney's who were behind this fake re-enactment were so insensitive to this issue, says a lot to me. And that they used a doll like that also speaks volumes that they are out of touch with reality with regards to the one and only victim here. Chloe was just a baby , whose short life was stolen from her at the age of 18 months old. A baby girl that wasn't given even half a chance.

 

[fabvab]

Here you go, I am 5’4 wearing flats not on my toes, and my fingers passed thru the window frame no problem and I wasn’t reaching hard.

I’m a visual person so once I stood there I had the aha moment, no way you didn’t know sir....

Wishing I could do a “love” instead of just a “like” on your pic! Thank you!

 

[justice4allnow]

And that they used a doll like that also speaks volumes that they are out of touch with reality with regards to the one and only victim here

I believe that they purposely chose this doll because it is so slim-if they had used a doll with the actual proportions of a toddler, it clearly could NOT have stood in a closed window. Nor could Chloe have stood there with the window closed. And God help us, who stands a toddler on a window sill, open OR closed?? Even if they had been one story up and the window shut, a bad injury could have resulted from falling backward.

 

[al66pine]

Jury View Factors? Civil or Crim Trial?
Is a jury view of RCL ship likely to be granted? Below, info from an article* discussing factors judges may consider in deciding whether to permit jury view.
--- Availability of photographs, diagrams or other material re crime scene or object to be viewed.
Example: appellate ct found no abuse of discretion where trial court denied a defense motion for a jury view of crime scene where photographs & measurements enabled the jury to reconstruct scene
--- Logistics of jury view. Jury view involved at least forty police officers to maintain order and direct traffic); Cathey, 162 N.C. App. at 354 (jury view denied in part because it was not logistically simple to accomplish);
--- Length of time required for jury view. Example: defense request for jury view denied in part because it would slow the trial by several hours and other matters were on the calendar.
--- Witness testimony regarding event or location in question.
--- Weather conditions. Example: jury view denied in part because it was extremely hot outside and jurors would be uncomfortable.
--- Probative value of evidence. Example: jury view of interior of a vehicle was probative.
--- Whether scene remains in same condition as it was at time of incident.

Altho the article discusses North Carolina law and cases, imo, these factors are also likely to be considered in a jury view motion in FL or PR.**
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Jury View
** PR statute was cited and linked in post 261 by Lawnguylander1964.
https://advance.lexis.com/documentp...r16&prid=17b4318c-0ea3-45b1-af1f-5fc42884b2e4
@Lawnguylander1964 Thank you very much.

 

[wackyw]

I haven't read the RCCL court filing myself, but it's claimed there that SA leaned out of the window for 8 seconds before picking CW up, hoisting her over the railing and holding her at/out of the window for 34 seconds. This was not something that happened suddenly as soon as he held her over the rail. Contrary to what Winkleman would have us believe. In the video SA clearly rocks her back and forth like it's some sort of game he's playing with her. Or working up the courage...YMMV.

BBM - At first sight I didn't really notice that, only on later viewings with the video enlarged. Imagine how that is going to look to a jury if the proprietary video is indeed much clearer.

 

[neesaki]

I believe that they purposely chose this doll because it was so slim-if they had used a doll with the actual proportions of a toddler, it clearly could NOT have stood in a closed window. Nor could Chloe have stood there with the window closed. And God help us, who stands a toddler on a window sill, open OR closed?? Even if they had been one story up and the window shut, a bad injury could have resulted from falling backward.

I’m sure you’re right. But seems they weren’t thinking past the end of their nose, and didn’t consider anything beyond their immediate gratification of trying to pass of a false narrative to the public.

 

[WiseGuy]

That is exactly what they are arguing.

Heck, FOUR tickets for failure to wear a seat belt were not enough for that dolt to get the message. We know he got at least 5. And that's further proof that Anello isn’t big on safety rules. A flashing neon light wouldn’t have changed his behavior.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

Unfortunately not the same windows. The middle section of windows on Freedom of the Seas continues angling out away from the ship. On your ship (Vision of the Seas?) the middle section of windows is angling back toward the ship. Not apples to apples.

Yes...you are correct. However, Pammi’s measurement from rail to window is 17 inches. DM’s measurement was 19. So even if not the same configuration or measurement from rail to window, from the picture Pammi hands would still go outside the window on freedom. As you can see from her picture she penetrates the window at her wrists...add two inches and she would still be beyond the window. Also keep in mind she is only 5’4. JMO

 

[al66pine]

Jury View, Civil or Crim Trial. Likley?
The first three factors in previous post seem to weigh against a jury view, imo, in both civil and crim trials.
---First, there are vids of actual event available. Even if low-quality by Hollywood standards, they can be viewed in still pix, in slow-mo, can be enlarged, etc. Can be viewed and reviewed. And there may be more vids, perhaps from other non-RCL surv-cams or vid-cams, giving critical depictions of SA w face, head, and/or upper torso outside window. If such vids are available & entered into evd, imo, jury view is not likely.
--- Logistics & Time. Fr/Seas has got to be in port - Miami for civil, San Juan for crim trial. Factor unknown to me – how long would it take, in either city, to herd jurors, judge, atty’s & assoc’s, ct reporters, and security/LE, and to transport from ct room to ship, (go thru security at dock?), allow jury to view Squeeze bar & window area, then reverse the whole process. Just as a SWAG, and for a 1/2 hour view, I'd hazard a guess of maybe 3 - 4 hrs.

RCL business standpoint:
Can this be done while ship has cruise passengers onboard? Would RCL move/keep empty ship at either port? Trials are scheduled, then commonly postponed again and again. Can RCL cancel literally thousands of passengers, perhaps for multiple cruises? And re-set schedules for crew? A jury view may seem disruptive to some passengers. Doubt that RCL wants to allow/bring a group of ~40+ ppl, plus reporters on board amidst cruise passengers, with attendant media attention. Doubt that RCL wants to put a ship out of commission, but maybe not necessary, IDK.
For PR crim trial, RCL is not a party to the case. What does that change re possibility of jury view?

I may be missing other factors which make a jury view motion more likely to be granted.

 

[al66pine]

Dirty Windows on Ship.?

I’m on a vision class ship ....I also noticed the lower windows (most if not all) are so marked with dirt and sea salt that you can’t see much of anything, which may be part of why he picked her up. He couldn’t see out from below... likely...

@Pammi sbm bbm I wonder if windows -- on embarkation day- would be freshly cleaned. If so, maybe not a reason for SA to pick her up.

 

[katydid23]

He shouldn’t have seen water, blue or not. He should’ve seen PUERTO RICO.


IMO a doll wearing a bikini isn’t obscene or perverse. People wear them every day, including children. Chloe herself was wearing a swimsuit. But they should’ve used a toddler-like doll instead of a young woman/mermaid. Does anyone know her height? I think they used this doll that was 32” but obviously not wearing her mermaid tail. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Disney-P...-Little-Mermaid-30-Year-Anniversary/858382392

But I don't think the doll's height is as important as her over all size. Look at toddler life sized dolls. They are fuller figured, bigger feet , totally different than the mermaid bikini doll thy used.

The life-sized toddler doll would be bigger overall. And more realistic and life like. And it would be more shocking to see a realistic toddler type child put in that dangerous situation. Both dolls below=same height