IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

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RoadToSerfdom said:
They seemed pretty confident in their "I thought there was glass", "hidden hole", "missing pane", "children's play area", hockey rink pictures, and media blitz strategy early on and seem shocked/angered/surprised it did not work (for a quick settlement without deep investigation).

The motive would be that with modern healthcare the "secret" would be inevitably discovered some day. Solve a problem and get rich. Just trying to answer your question about motive don't mean to keep going deeper into a theory if not allowed. If I were the authorities I would want to eliminate or confirm it one way or the other just for having a complete investigation and ruling things out. I don't think that could be done at this point in any case.

In the history of cruise lines with millions of trips no adult has ever accidentally dropped a baby/toddler out an open window.

<modsnip>
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Excellent post! Totally agree
 
LietKynes said:
Good post.^^^

It only takes one or two to plan something.
As far as the ever-changing story.... something is seriously askew here.
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Also agree, nothing should be ruled out, and I also wonder about the ever changing story. Still feel SA and KW are involved, but not because of something that may have happened when SA came into her life. Not sure of a motive, but going over other options, nothing adds up. JMO
 
Chewy said:
I don't understand why anyone would think it was premeditated? Do you think the family teamed up to try to off their kid on a Cruise and was scouring the boat looking for an opportunity? I could see maybe one parent doing that ala Ross Harris but I can't see a whole family deciding to do that? How could they know that the window would be open? They would be better off letting her get hurt in one of the pools or falling down a flight of stairs, or cracking her head in the bathroom. They wouldn't even need to have killed her for that lawsuit to work. The cruise's insurance company would pay out.
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An entire family ?
No, probably not as a group of people usually can't keep a secret.

It'd only take one or two--- and if two, they'd have to have an extraordinarily close and loving relationship.
Because if this goes to trial someone might crack and let secrets out.
Should be interesting.
SA would be wise to admit guilt and the Wiegand's need to drop their lawsuit effective immediately.
They, and Winkleman, know this is bogus !
 
LietKynes said:
Good post.^^^

It only takes one or two to plan something.
As far as the ever-changing story.... something is seriously askew here.
Click to expand...
Also agree, nothing should be ruled out, and I also wonder about the ever changing story. Still feel SA and KW are involved, but not because of something that may have happened when SA came into her life. Not sure of a motive, but going over other options, nothing adds up. JMO
JulieBEMT said:
IMO, he can't/won't plead guilty because that would hurt the parents' chances of winning millions of dollars in a civil suit. We all agree that he should take responsibility. However, it's very possible that he's risking jail time by refusing a plea because CW's parents have told him not to.



It seems like you completely missed the first line of my post. I said "I don't have both feet firmly planted on the premeditated side of the line. But, I still believe it's a good possibility." Nowhere did I say the entire family was involved. Nowhere did I say "I'm certain it was premeditated." I simply said that I believe it's a good possibility. As to why I feel that way, here are just a few reasons:

  • The parents advised SA to refuse a breathalyzer.
  • Parents immediately began photographing the area and windows.
  • They hired MW and had him doing press conferences about a civil suit less than 36 hours after their child died.
  • They went on a national media tour to try and sway public opinion before they even buried their daughter.
  • The insistence that criminal charges should not be filed. Mom goes so far as to repeatedly refer to killing her own daughter as a "misdemeanor."
  • I knew the family was lying from the moment this hit the media because I've been on this ship numerous times. Referring to it as a "children's play area," and saying he couldn't tell the window was open were the first two indications for me. IMO, if they were lying about these simple facts so quickly, they could easily be lying about everything.
  • I've watched the video.
    • SA clearly stuck his head/upper body outside of the window before bending down to pick up CW.
    • While leaning out the window, he looked in all directions. It felt to me like he was calculating the number of witnesses and where she would land.
    • When he picked her up, in one swift and decisive movement, he hoists her up over his head right to the windowsill.
    • This was not a case of holding her up there for just a few seconds. He held her there for more than 30 seconds, and then let go with one hand before dropping her.
  • The family was running online fundraisers prior to CW's death, and have run many more since.
  • I do not have a source for this, so it could easily be rumor, but I read they took out a 200k life insurance policy on CW just a month or two before the cruise.





I don't think that coming up with theories on possible motives or reasoning is gossiping. If nobody ever came up with theories, how would anyone investigate them.



I'm not clear on why you can say "I think" and then speculate on his thoughts and actions, but others cannot do the same.



You are not he only ones who feel this way. I've been in the same corner all along. While I'm open to the possibility that this was an accident, I believe otherwise.
Click to expand...

You and I have the same thoughts on this tragic event. Chloe is the one that seems to be forgotten.poor SA. No poor Chloe! JMO
 
I agree with the poster who compared what SA did to Russian roulette. I think he got a thrill from having CW in danger. Did he think she would actually fall? A few weeks ago I would have said "no".... now I would say "yes". What changed my mind is his behavior in the video holding her, and his behavior in the interviews. To me he is not the devastated grandfather in the tv interview. I don't even buy his fake crying routine. He knew that window was open. Right before she falls, he is only holding her by his left hand - you can see in the video his right hand coming up, I believe holding a phone or camera, his right hand swings from his right side to the front of his body so whatever he is pointing is facing CW, and then she falls. This probably isn't a popular theory but....he could have been filming the moment he "dropped" her. As horrific as that sounds, this is where my mind is going based on everything I have seen and read about this case. He knew the window was open. He's holding her by one hand. His other hand is holding something, swings it around, and out she falls. He doesn't reach forward to try to grab her. He falls backwards. There's no way he didn't know by letting her go she was going to fall straight out the window. So then what is the conclusion? To me - he did it intentionally. Maybe he is a sociopath, I don't know. Look at the video of him in the airport when the family is returning home. Is this the face of a man who is crushed by grief for killing his granddaughter? Or someone wondering where baggage claim is??

At this point, I don't think anyone else in the family was involved. I think as a lawyer it is the mom's reaction to blame someone. I think the parents are totally wrong and misguided, but this could be their defense mechanism against thinking grandpa intentionally killed their child. People do it all the time, make excuses for abusive family members. I knew someone with a very verbally abusive father, the mother did nothing all the years the father was abusive. All the children resent the father and think the mother is a wonderful angel - even though the mother did nothing to protect her kids from the abuse. I think for the children it is too hard to lose both parents so they are rationalizing the mother's behavior in not protecting them. That's how I feel right now - maybe in the future I will feel differently. My opinion of SA's motives has changed over the past few weeks so it's entirely possible my opinion of whether the mom was involved will change too. I started out strongly feeling SA was either drunk or medicated, but there's just too much about his actions that seem otherwise to me.
 
LietKynes said:
An entire family ? No....
It'd only take one or two--- and if two, they'd have to have an extraordinarily close and loving relationship.....
Click to expand...
 @LietKynes sbm :) Close & loving relationship? Very possibly.
Or if two ppl planned this, is it possible that their relationship is not close & loving? Maybe full of criticism & contempt, negative energy, long harbored ill feelings, even hatred? A toxic relationship?

I'm not saying two ppl were involved or planned. Or even that one did this intentionally.
 
KW & Chloe were said to be playing in the H2O zone after lunch. It was also said that SA had to come up and watch Chloe because KW needed to take care of ? AW & son were at another pool on the ship, I originally thought it was on another floor, but someone recently corrected me on my assumption, and said the pools are on the same deck.

Why didn't KW simply walk Chloe over to AW and ask him to watch while she took care of ? Why did she call SA to come up and watch Chloe?

MOO
 
Wicked Strong said:
I'm sorry but I disagree with the drunk statement. There were many people immediately after the accident, the doctor for one. If he was drunk, I am certain that the doctor or at least someone close to SA would smell alcohol. He was also taken to a room following his collapse on the floor, yet no one has ever commented on he had alcohol on his breath. I know for a fact that you can smell alcohol before you are ever tested and proved drunk.

MOO
Click to expand...
While I don’t disagree that a doctor or even LE would likely be able to see the signs of intoxication, saying they would smell it, is actually false. There are alcoholic beverages that do smell, beer being one, but hard alcohol, like vodka, does not have a distinct smell to it. I tell you this from lots of experience, not only training, but arresting a lot of intoxicated people. Some are stinky, sloppy drunk. But, the scary ones are the alcoholics who wake up and need a drink. They actually can function at a high alcohol level to the point the average person would not be able to tell.

I arrested a woman, with her children in the car. She was driving and weaving, would go from very fast to very slow. Her perceptions were off. She was able to answer questions, talk normal and at least stand and do what was asked of her, albeit not that great. Of course she was slow with her movements and reaction time was slow, but I guarantee you, another person may not have recognized these things. She related she had one vodka drink at lunch. She did not smell at all of any alcohol. Her blood tests came back, .31. She was hammered. This is just one example of the numerous times I did not smell alcohol on an impaired driver. It’s much more smelling, it’s more about the reactions and ability to properly respond and understand things.

I am not saying he is as intoxicated, but I would hope that LE determined if he was or wasn’t on much more than if he smelled. He refused, but he also was not required to agree. It’s not like driving and that you agree to submit to a test when you get your license if you are suspected, those are the rules. They are not the rules on a ship, so they could have gotten a warrant if they chose, so it does lead me to believe they didn’t feel it was necessary to do so. Although all this doesn’t mean he wasn’t on some kind of medication that impaired his thinking. I honestly think his he is just an idiot.

I have said this before, I think he deliberately put her up to an open window, however I’m not convinced he deliberately dropped her. He made an extremely reckless decision and Chloe paid the price. The family has chosen to not accept that fact, but it doesn’t change that fact. Reckless homicide is appropriate and all this guy had to do what admit his behavior was dangerous, but he won’t. It was dangerous if the window was closed. It was 11 stories up, no one should be putting kids to windows and trusting they will stay closed, so I don’t really care if he wants to spin it, he was wrong and he should be the one to face the consequences. Chloe took the brunt of his bad behavior, she is the one who lost in all this.
 
Hughaskton said:
I’m sorry that posted twice!! Please forgive me, I don’t know why it did that!!! I don’t know this sight that well and if I delete it that it could mess up the thread. Mod, I apologize please delete the second one if possible!
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:)
No, it's been doing that for many others here.
If you want, you can edit within (I think) an hour's time ; and after 1 hour it can't be edited.
You just click on your post, open it, and delete the post.
Then leave a DBM (deleted by me) after you've erased the double post.
Since the message can't be blank.
Some members put a period there.
 
LietKynes said:
:)
No, it's been doing that for many others here.
If you want, you can edit within (I think) an hour's time ; and after 1 hour it can't be edited.
You just click on your post, open it, and delete the post.
Then leave a DBM (deleted by me) after you've erased the double post.
Since the message can't be blank.
Some members put a period there.
Click to expand...
Thank you!!!!
 
The prosecutors can't think "Mr. SA would never do such a thing because he's a devoted grandfather" or "I don't want to be cynical about this" because they just look at the evidence. The prosecutors did consider the charge of murder. That was in MSM. They waited a few weeks to state that to give the family a chance to get past the initial shock and also have the funeral.

1. Thinking about "Occam's Razor," then it seems most likely that SA was under the influence of something. Whether he'd had alcohol or something else caused him to be extremely intoxicated.

2. Suppose they ask MW about dropping the suit against RCCL because they just can't go on like this. Guess what he's going to tell them? "You deserve something, we've come this far, we've put so many resources into this to go to bat for you, let us do our job and win this; do this for your daughter, etc."

3. SA has to do what the family wants now, because he caused the death of their child and they're not blaming him. It's "the least he can do." SA stated on the CBS interview that at first he thought it was his fault but now he blames the "boat." He said he tells himself every day "I thought it was glass." He says that 3 times in a row, slapping his leg and looking like he does not even believe it.

Perhaps the family suspected he was under the influence of something so they wanted to head off that problem and told him what to do and not do (refusing breathalyzer and lawyering up). (I know we've talked about this a lot.)

SA may have lied from the start about the full truth about what he did at the window and beforehand.

Since SA caused the death of their child, how can he refuse to do anything they want him to do now? He went on TV, he appeared at the news conference and made a statement, etc. And they keep saying they don't blame him.

This family has my sincere sympathy. In the parents' shoes I don't know what I would do. Every day for a long time I would probably want to physically attack the person who so recklessly caused my child's death. That feeling would probably lead to serious health problems. Even if I was trying to forgive them. They must be going through hell in so many ways and not have very many good days.
 
[QUOTE="SA has to do what the family wants now, because he caused the death of their child and they're not blaming him. It's "the least he can do." [/QUOTE]

This is definitely clear. If you watch SA's interview, he gives the most wishy washy non-answer when asked if he blames the cruise line. He doesn't even actually say "yes", he says something like "if only there had been a warning sign". It's literally embarrassing to watch him try to blame the cruise line when he is the reason CW is dead, and he knows it. If CW dying was the "worst" thing that ever happened to him - then why not plead guilty? Because you don't believe her death was your fault, or because that would mess up the family's lawsuit against the cruise line? Tens of thousands of people sail on cruise lines every WEEK. This is the only time a toddler fell out a window. And that only happened because grandpa lifted her up and held her in front of an open window with one hand. People ask how could the family be in on this "conspiracy" etc., but then you watch the video of how recklessly he behaved, the speed at which the family opened an estate and instituted a lawsuit, calling CW's death a "misdemeanor", and I start to wonder.
 
I don't view it as likely intentional because SA had no guarantee that Puerto Rico police were not going to arrest him on the spot for murder and the courts deny bail. I do not know what he would gain from the death of Chloe but whatever it might be seems unlikely to be worth years in the pokey.
 
Hughaskton said:
While I don’t disagree that a doctor or even LE would likely be able to see the signs of intoxication, saying they would smell it, is actually false. There are alcoholic beverages that do smell, beer being one, but hard alcohol, like vodka, does not have a distinct smell to it. I tell you this from lots of experience, not only training, but arresting a lot of intoxicated people. Some are stinky, sloppy drunk. But, the scary ones are the alcoholics who wake up and need a drink. They actually can function at a high alcohol level to the point the average person would not be able to tell.

I arrested a woman, with her children in the car. She was driving and weaving, would go from very fast to very slow. Her perceptions were off. She was able to answer questions, talk normal and at least stand and do what was asked of her, albeit not that great. Of course she was slow with her movements and reaction time was slow, but I guarantee you, another person may not have recognized these things. She related she had one vodka drink at lunch. She did not smell at all of any alcohol. Her blood tests came back, .31. She was hammered. This is just one example of the numerous times I did not smell alcohol on an impaired driver. It’s much more smelling, it’s more about the reactions and ability to properly respond and understand things.

I am not saying he is as intoxicated, but I would hope that LE determined if he was or wasn’t on much more than if he smelled. He refused, but he also was not required to agree. It’s not like driving and that you agree to submit to a test when you get your license if you are suspected, those are the rules. They are not the rules on a ship, so they could have gotten a warrant if they chose, so it does lead me to believe they didn’t feel it was necessary to do so. Although all this doesn’t mean he wasn’t on some kind of medication that impaired his thinking. I honestly think his he is just an idiot.

I have said this before, I think he deliberately put her up to an open window, however I’m not convinced he deliberately dropped her. He made an extremely reckless decision and Chloe paid the price. The family has chosen to not accept that fact, but it doesn’t change that fact. Reckless homicide is appropriate and all this guy had to do what admit his behavior was dangerous, but he won’t. It was dangerous if the window was closed. It was 11 stories up, no one should be putting kids to windows and trusting they will stay closed, so I don’t really care if he wants to spin it, he was wrong and he should be the one to face the consequences. Chloe took the brunt of his bad behavior, she is the one who lost in all this.
Click to expand...

Excellent post. I feel the same way. Especially because it was 11 floors up. Even if the glass was there it would have been risky. And as someone else pointed out, even if she hadn't fallen, he was breaking the rules of the RCCL.
 
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