IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

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@Berk13

As someone apparently very familiar with this area where LS was last seen, and the social environment. I have some questions for you.

1) Please describe what the range substances and activities would be involved in "Partying" typically at 5 North and Smallwood, or the building where ZO/AB lived which is in between, correct?

2) Do you know know for a fact that any of these people; CR/MB/JR/JW/ZO/AB/HT/LS used any substance other than Alcohol? If so, is it common knowledge who usually supplies?

3) Why do you think CR was attacked and why do you think that?

4) Why do you think those (apparently ZO/AB) who attacked CR were able to do so with apparent impunity?

5) Why is it that LS seemed to only be partying with guys? What is your take on that?

6) If you have knowledge of any or all of these people, who do you think there should be more focus on?


VV - I think you might be giving me too much credit here. Unfortunately I don't know any of these kids personally and I don't feel qualified to answer a lot of those questions aside from my own personal opinions. To give you some perspective on where I'm coming from, I received three degrees from IU (undergrad, masters, PhD) so I have lived in Bloomington and have been immersed in the university culture for a large chunk of my adult life, and still live here. I taught at IU for four years and I feel very comfortable saying that I know the "type" of kids we're talking about here. I am around college students nearly every day of my life and when you're surrounded by different types of students, you pick up on a lot of their individual AND group behaviors/characteristics. I've had students in classes who were very similar to these groups in terms of their demographics, so sometimes I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of their actions and the reasons behind their actions (and I refer to these as "groups" because I don't think we can lump every single POI and peripheral person in this case into one group - there are some distinct social groups here and some just happen to have overlaps).

Aside from where I'm coming from personally, I have posted a lot on here today because I feel that a lot of the posts seem to be jumping to conclusions about the relationships between all of these students, specifically between JW and ZO/AB, as well as the whole Indy 500 thing assuming that all of these kids were there together. It seems like these things are being stated as facts, when really we do not know if JW has any sort of friendship/association with ZO/AB, and we really do not know if anyone besides CR and HT hung out with LS at the 500. I just wanted to point those things out so that everyone is a little more careful about not stating these things as facts, and instead saying something like, "Let's assume JW is friends with ZO/AB..." and then stating their theory. I think perpetuating rumors/assumptions as facts might lead us further away from the goal - finding out what happened to Lauren.

I guess because I know the campus and community pretty well, I know that you can live right next to someone and barely even know them. I can think of at least three different apartments I lived in during college where I had neighbors but couldn't even tell you their names. Living next to each other does not equal being friends. Also, Person A can have mutual friends with Person B, but Person A and Person B still don't know each other at all. Heck, you can be in the same fraternity or sorority with someone and barely know their last name (errr...sometimes even first name, sorry to say!). IU is a huge university with tens of thousands of students. I guess I am trying to caution everyone against 1) assuming certain people in this case are close to each other and then 2) suddenly stating those assumed relationships as though they are facts. The only relationships I think we really know in this case are as follows:

LS-HT = roommates
LS-JW = girlfriend/boyfriend
LS-CR = friends
LS-MB = at least acquaintances since she talked to him at his apt.
LS-DR = friends
LS-JR = friends
HT-JW = clearly know each other since she is in his FB pics and he went to her classroom to get her keys to LS's apt.
HT-JR = at least acquaintances since she said she partied at his place in the past, talked to him after LS's disappearance
HT-DR = she wished him happy birthday on his Facebook page
HT-CR = she said they hung out at Indy 500
HT-LS-CR = hung out at Indy 500
ZO-AB = roommates
CR-MB = roommates
CR-MB-JR = live in same townhome complex
DR-JR = at least acquaintances if DR's phone number was in JW's phone

As far as I know, those are the only associations we can definitely state as facts. If I missed any, please feel free to help me out and add them. It's late, that's a lot of acronyms, and I'm ready to go to sleep! :)

With that being said, here are VV's questions and any answers I can provide...a lot of this is just my opinion:

1) Please describe what the range substances and activities would be involved in "Partying" typically at 5 North and Smallwood, or the building where ZO/AB lived which is in between, correct?

Yes, ZO/AB live at 10th & College apartments, which are between Smallwood and 5 North.

I have no firsthand knowledge of what these kids did when they partied. The rumors on campus specific to this case are the same things you've heard here - cocaine, Xanax. Again, those are the rumors I've heard. I do not know any of that to be fact.

2) Do you know know for a fact that any of these people; CR/MB/JR/JW/ZO/AB/HT/LS used any substance other than Alcohol? If so, is it common knowledge who usually supplies?

I do not know any of that for a fact. Again, all rumors point to ZO being a dealer, but as far as I know, no one has been able to confirm it.

I've also heard that JR and DR are dealers and got into trouble in their dorm freshman year for dealing cocaine and heroine - this info came to me privately from someone who was involved in that situation.

3) Why do you think CR was attacked and why do you think that?

My personal theory is that it was drug-related. Why do I think that? Rumors from students. That's all I have. I haven't heard any rumors that it was a fight over LS. My guess is as good as yours here. To further explain my hunch, I think that if LS followed CR out of the building after that fight, she was concerned about him and upset that he was punched - basically she was 'on his side' for whatever the fight was about, or she felt sorry for him and she was showing concern. If the fight was about her because all these guys had crushes on her, I think she would've gotten frustrated and just headed to her apartment at that point. OR if it was about her because these guys were friends with JW (as some have speculated), I doubt she would leave with the guy who got punched by her boyfriend's friends. It just doesn't seem to me like that fight was about LS. I think she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. That is just my opinion.

4) Why do you think those (apparently ZO/AB) who attacked CR were able to do so with apparent impunity?

Probably because fights like this happen all the time between students. It's not a big deal for LE if a kid gets punched. I don't get the sense that security at Smallwood is always monitoring every single thing that happens in that complex. It just seems like a guy getting punched is pretty small potatoes. Get the two parties away from each other and security's job is done. No need to call the police or try to somehow punish them.

5) Why is it that LS seemed to only be partying with guys? What is your take on that?

My personal take on this, as a female who has hung out with "just guys" and no girls on several occasions, especially in college, is that sometimes it is fun to hang out with just guys when there are no other girls around. Guys might not understand this as well as girls, but I don't think anyone should read too much into this. If the guys were up for partying and her roommate was staying in, why wouldn't she just go out and have a fun night with the guys? No other girls around means she would be the center of attention (and what girl doesn't enjoy that from time to time?) and guys are usually just more chill than girls. I could go into more depth on that statement, but I think you probably know what I mean. Sometimes girls are so high maintenance that they actually get on their girl friends' nerves - trust me, it can be very nice to just be around guys who are a little more relaxed.

6) If you have knowledge of any or all of these people, who do you think there should be more focus on?

I have no knowledge other than the facts that have been stated in the case and the rumors/speculation/theories I've heard.

Sorry to write such a long post! I think I'm done for the night.
 
re. the thought that LS/CR were approached by "waiters" in the alley.....

I keep going back to a post by Tony Gatto. He said that he didn't believe that the fight had anything to do with LS. Being a Journalist, I would assume someone has planted that bug in his hear, giving him reason to believe that, as opposed to the thought coming out of the blue. If it's true, then why would ZO or AB abduct LS? I don't think they would. So, what about this.......

LS/CR walks back to 5 North. On their way, the see the "waiters" and CR calls MB or JR for help (or since they are close, maybe JR or MB happens to be outside or see/hear something and come to the gravel area. A fight ensues off camera and in the process, LS tried to help. She is little. A punch is thrown and she's killed accidentally. This would give them ALL reason to want to collaborate a story. Saying she went to 5 North would make sense, given that she left with CR....but why say that she then went to JR's?

Details are still sketchy with this one but it's surely possible that she was hurt/killed during some altercation. I just keep thinking that the fight had nothing to do with LS b/c I've read several rumors that those boys really weren't friends with JW, so I don't think they were trying to get LS away from CR. JMO

BBM:

The only thing I can think of is to skew the timeline to having her alive later, then hope that it appeared to be a stranger abduction or something. Getting rid of the body and coming up with a plausible story in a couple of hour time span would have been quite a feat, though not impossible.

Your theory explains a good percentage of it, though.
 
Somewhere someone states (I believe it was the TG site) that the altercation at Smallwood between this group of guys and CR had nothing to do with Lauren being with CR at the time - I would strongly disagree. What other beef would they have with this CR but the obvious? CR is with JW's girl. That is where I cannot let JW off of the hook.

Drugs perhaps?
 
I'm going to throw this out there - please answer with links if you can.

AA - is he associated with any of the POIs? if so, how? Am I correct in stating that he is a POI?
The fight at Smallwood - who were all the people involved that ganged up on CR? Do we know all of them? Where was JW during this altercation?
ZO and AB - do they hand with JR/MB/CR crowd?
ZO and AB - are they friends with JW? Where do they live?
Where does JW live? (I thought I heard LE state that they searched a house (JW's) but I could be wrong)
Who are JW's roommates?
HT - is she dating anyone? anyone that is friends with any of the POI's?
Do we know what HT did that entire evening?

My brain is fried. If you can lend me a hand, I'd appreciate it.

Okay...one more post before I go to bed. ;) I'll answer the Q's as best I can (your questions italicized):

AA - is he associated with any of the POIs? if so, how? Am I correct in stating that he is a POI?
Not sure - he's never been named in MSM as a POI. I don't know if he is affiliated with any POIs.

The fight at Smallwood - who were all the people involved that ganged up on CR? Do we know all of them? Where was JW during this altercation?
The only one we truly know was there is ZO. I believe it is speculation that AB was there as well...if I'm wrong, please correct me. JW was apparently at home sleeping (he said he went to sleep at 2:30 a.m. Altercation was around 2:40 a.m.)

ZO and AB - do they hand with JR/MB/CR crowd?

Not sure. For what it's worth, both of them have 1000+ friends on Facebook, and they are NOT FB friends with JR/MB/CR/JW. So...to me that seems like they aren't friends. AB deleted his Facebook account or made it completely private within the last few days. I can still see ZO's.

ZO and AB - are they friends with JW? Where do they live?
Again, no evidence leads to them being friends. ZO and AB live at the 10th & College apartments.

Where does JW live? (I thought I heard LE state that they searched a house (JW's) but I could be wrong)

JW lives in a house at 9th & Fess.

Who are JW's roommates?
As far as I know, his roommate(s) have never been named in MSM.

HT - is she dating anyone? anyone that is friends with any of the POI's?
Her FB profile is private so it's tough to know if she's in a relationship. I've never heard that she is, but who knows.

Do we know what HT did that entire evening?

No.
 
BBM:

The only thing I can think of is to skew the timeline to having her alive later, then hope that it appeared to be a stranger abduction or something. Getting rid of the body and coming up with a plausible story in a couple of hour time span would have been quite a feat, though not impossible.

Your theory explains a good percentage of it, though.

Perhaps they needed to skew the timeline to give a reason for the 4:15 phone call. MB didn't go out to the bars. He was home alone writing a paper. LE may want to know why he didn't go, so he'd need to be honest. However, that would contradict if he said LS came back to their place and hung out til 4:30 (if he was supposed to still be writing a paper). So, he says she left but yet they had to account for her til after the 4:15 call, so they say she went to JR's. The 4:15 call could have been asking to put her back in her bedroom, or to borrow a car.

The only problem I have with my own thought about LS being caught in the middle of a fight, is that I think it would have had to happen almost immediately. 1. It was reported by some people who say CR the next day that he didn't really look beaten up. 2. Assuming AA had nothing to do with this. they had to have gotten her out of the alley quickly. However, the quote that I pointed out up thread, which bothers me, bothers me even more now. For AA to say that he "didn't know they were hers", it's almost like he was talking like he knew her, or previously knew she was missing, or something. Maybe he was involved in the fight as well, and lied about finding the keys/time to try to show that she wasn't in that alley past 3 AM.
 
Well, fall semester is right around the corner. That should be interesting.
 
A WS poster from Bloomington stated that they visited 5 North and the mailbox for JR's place had three other names on it.

3 other names does seem like 3 other roommates... has anyone confirmed that they all actually were roommates and if any of them were still around?
If they each had 1 room, then what was the 5the bedroom used for?
Would be curious what these 3 others have to say about LS, partying, and what may have happened.
 
Does anyone else wonder about that truck still? It was pasted all over every media... picking someone up for work at that time of the morning... college apts? Why cleared so quickly?
 
3 other names does seem like 3 other roommates... has anyone confirmed that they all actually were roommates and if any of them were still around?
If they each had 1 room, then what was the 5the bedroom used for?
Would be curious what these 3 others have to say about LS, partying, and what may have happened.

See Jupiter's recent post in this thread - s/he mentions that in the fall semester, JR had at least 4 roommates because they were all mentioned somewhere online about their townhome being broken into over winter break.
 
Ber13 - thank you for your posts. Wow, if that's true that JR/DR were selling cocaine and heroine, that's pretty hard core. I don't know if there are dealers who just sell, and don't do the drug themselves, but my understanding is that heroine is not something that you can just easily stop. It's HIGHLY addictive and ruins your life. It's very different from cocaine. It alters your appearance drastically. Google "Heroine before/after pics" and you'll be amazed at what it can do to you in such a short period of time. I know of someone in my area who works with drug addicted youth. This person had a "client" who was 14 and pregnant. She was shooting heroin under her eyelid so no one would find the track marks and take away her baby when she delivered. That's how bad the addiction can be! I find it very hard to understand how one can be doing heroin and have any success in college. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were just making money on it and not doing it themselves.

Curious - why the heck do these types of kids feel the need to make money in this manner in the first place? It sounded to me as though they had $ at their disposal. Although regardless of how rich the parents are, most kids are on an allowance. I would speculate that they were dealing to just support their own habit and I believe that's how most get started doing it anyway. So sad.
 
Does anyone else wonder about that truck still? It was pasted all over every media... picking someone up for work at that time of the morning... college apts? Why cleared so quickly?

Definitely. I posted a question about this a while back. I'd love to know how this was cleared. I have to add that when someone says, "I picked up a co-worker" that does not in any way "clear" him. There has to be more. IMO the only thing logical would be if they discovered something on video that cleared these people - like perhaps seeing some altercation in the alley where LS was knocked out or something like that. An altercation of that nature would likely not be enough to make an arrest. So she was punched by accident? She woke up later, was fine, then walked home - would be what they would say. I think they'd need something stronger, yet that might be enough to clear the truck....something to that effect.
 
This bolded quote has always bothered me......so he made this comment to the newspaper BEFORE giving an account to the police? If true, then exactly how did he know they were hers?

I'm more bothered by apparent BPD indifference to subsequent follow-ups.

Otherwise, I myself see nothing suspicious in Amin's response.

Presumption: Amin may/may not have notified authorities via text/phone/email before 6/10 of the discovery and subsequent placement by his friend. Prior to 6/10, Amin had no idea the key/purse belonged to LS. Someone else ("salon worker," "hair stylist") on or before 6/10 may have found & turned in the key/purse.

Fact: On or about 6/10, BPD announced "We found keys and the small card purse or coin purse in the alley."

Subsequent news accounts report the key/purse were found "by authorities."

As of 6/10, Amin had yet to be interviewed face-to-face. As of 7/2, the "salon worker" had yet to be interviewed face-to-face.
 
Ber13 - thank you for your posts. Wow, if that's true that JR/DR were selling cocaine and heroine, that's pretty hard core. I don't know if there are dealers who just sell, and don't do the drug themselves, but my understanding is that heroine is not something that you can just easily stop. It's HIGHLY addictive and ruins your life. It's very different from cocaine. It alters your appearance drastically. Google "Heroine before/after pics" and you'll be amazed at what it can do to you in such a short period of time. I know of someone in my area who works with drug addicted youth. This person had a "client" who was 14 and pregnant. She was shooting heroin under her eyelid so no one would find the track marks and take away her baby when she delivered. That's how bad the addiction can be! I find it very hard to understand how one can be doing heroin and have any success in college. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were just making money on it and not doing it themselves.

Curious - why the heck do these types of kids feel the need to make money in this manner in the first place? It sounded to me as though they had $ at their disposal. Although regardless of how rich the parents are, most kids are on an allowance. I would speculate that they were dealing to just support their own habit and I believe that's how most get started doing it anyway. So sad.


Gabby, I was also completely shocked when this person told me they were dealing heroine. I had to ask them to repeat it several times because coke is one thing, but heroine is hard core and so very addictive like you said. For these guys to still be functioning in school and in life, I tend to also believe they probably weren't actually using it themselves. It seems like it would be too difficult to hide that and still maintain the grades to stay in school.

I have also wondered why students would want to sell drugs. I suppose it is just to have extra $$ - even if they're getting an allowance, often times people can get greedy and want more, more, more. It might also be to support their habit, as you suggested.

I'm getting a little off topic here, but I had a good friend in college and her brother also went to IU. They both came from a great family and they were great students/people. I found out from my friend that her brother was dealing drugs and making tens of thousands of dollars from it. He was the last person you would ever suspect to deal drugs. Clean-cut, quite a gentleman, studious, etc. As far as I know, all he ever personally used was marijuana. He just wanted to have a lot of $$, so he got involved in it. I think this just illustrates that it's tough to predict why or how someone gets involved in dealing drugs.
 
Does anyone else wonder about that truck still? It was pasted all over every media... picking someone up for work at that time of the morning... college apts? Why cleared so quickly?

I don't. I believe LE when they say they found the man, a local business owner I think they said, and checked with the person he was picking up, and also were given access to search/examine the truck. I trust this is the only thing/person ruled out in this case.

Also Lauren's parents never changed focus...they seem to be appealing to her friends, as they always have been. I think they know the truck owner has been cleared.
 
VV - VERY interesting theory. AA is certainly under the radar now. Perhaps his prints were on the keys as he had already picked them up so he's got to fess up to something. I think CR was toast and when he and LS came upon this group in the gravel lot said I'm outta here as he just had the snot beaten out of him earlier. So he misses out on what happens. I'm wondering how JR gets himself involved - assuming they never entered the apartment building and everything happens in the gravel lot before they would have gone in. So we have more than a few POI's in the gravel lot. Some there because they live there, others there because they knew LS and CR were headed that way (the waiters) but in the end, they all have some culpability because something happens to Lauren. Perhaps it was an accident, an OD, a fall, but be as it may they now have a body and they're all involved no matter how they look at it. They're trying to figure out how to get that body out of that lot and somewhere hidden until they can all figure this thing out. They figure it out and that's where the oath of silence comes in. If one goes down, they all go down. I just can't figure how JR gets himself involved. He could have been minding his own business in his apt and never had anything to do with this whole mess but for a phone call at 4:15. I don't get it. And MB? He's minding his own business doing his papers. I can see AA and AB, ZO with AB and JW somewhere in this mess. But if, and its a mighty if, Lauren never enters the apartments (which if we are to believe LE and the event happened as CR and LS approach the gravel lot after the 2:51 sighting and she met her demise) UNLESS, they brought the body inside the apartments, she didn't die in the gravel lot but went inside while the waiters continued to wait, and MB and JR saw the whole thing. Now I'm confusing myself. What I'm getting at is do you think she made it inside the apartments alive? If you take what LE says about the 3AM "event," like I do, then I take it as she was attacked, fell, had the fatal event right then and there and the perp is on the camera but we have no body - then she could have never made it inside the apartments alive, or on her own. Am I confusing you? I just need to take a step back for a minute because I'm starting to talk smack and in circles. Maybe I'm putting too much weight on the LE and the secret 3AM event.

I understand what you mean. I could see LS perhaps shrieking about the gravel (since she had no shoes) and CR was in no condition to carry her. So who comes to her rescue? Now I was estimating that 2:51 would take until about 2:54 to 2:56 to arrive at CR's... but now I'm thinking that due to the gravel, that would slow anyone down with bare feet. I would guess at least 1/2 speed. So arrival at CR's would be more like 2:57 to 3:01 This would make it nearly impossible for AA to have not see anyone. But what if someone offered to carry her or was goofing around and she jumped on CR's back perhaps even slid off and was seriously injured.
CR comes in with her... pretty much dragging her. Now MB is involved. IF she dies right here... suddenly MB is culpable as CR is out of it.
I'm now trying to remember exactly the statements about whether JR was at CR/MB's when CR/LS supposedly arrived, or whether he showed up while they were there... or if JR was never confirmed to be there at all? If JR was there at CR/MB's he suddenly would be foist into it as well. Again, how could they explain this situation to LE? Here there are a few guys and a girl with a broken neck or some fatal injury - some of them are drunk and/or have drugs in their system. Even if they had absolutely nothing to do with it, it would sure look like they did. Perhaps AB is at this scene...
and agrees to move her. How can it be that 5 North with all it's splendor doesn't have cameras? Maybe it does... and Maybe someone is caught on cam carrying LS over their shoulder... and maybe it's even 3:38... then JR heads back up to his place. Perhaps the plan was to bring her back to Smallwood as discussed earlier and it failed. Or a car, etc... If JR helped AB or someone get her out of there and they returned by 4:15 JR might have staged the call to DR to throw off the timeline. Or perhaps as someone theorized earlier that it was a signal to DR that it had been taken care of. Just what time did DR get home? Smallwood has cams, he lives in smallwood... it should be known when he arrived back at home.
If he just happened to show up between 3:00 and 4:00 it would cause me to dig deeper. If he arrived close to 4:00 I would doubt he was asleep at 4:15

Yet, I could also see others carrying LS in some way, either playfully or just helping her glide over the gravel, perhaps over someone's shoulder.
To me it's not inconceivable that this would repeat in the reverse direction back to Smallwood if she took the same way back home. They may have also avoided the Alley on the way back and veered out towards N. College at the Dr's office or Museum and then had been spotted coming down N. College near 10th by the 3:38 witness. In this way the same person could have been seen with her over their shoulder at 2 different times and places.
But this time the accident(or ill intent) may have happened on the way back to AB's or Smallwood.
 
I enjoyed reading your response.

. . .In the real world, LE do not look at
boyfriends and consider them POI's only if they have a past history of
becoming threatening and violent. . .
Actually, in the real world LE usually won't release theories at all that
name persons & particularly will not act without evidence.
Back in their offices they might kick around ideas but you usually don't see
them posting theories on a case they are working in forums.

Let me make the distinction that what we do without the evidence that
LE has should be more restrained and careful so we do not create more
Richard Jewells and so we do not end up with egg on our faces
when/if the wild speculations are finally proven to be just wild speculation
made by people who could not be bothered to wait for some evidence
to come in before speaking. (That is my opinion and not a directive for
anyone else.)

Re the tunnel vision:
It was not LE that I worried about having tunnel vision but us on the
forum. I was happy to read your response that you are still
looking at all possibilities. A respectful tip of the hat to you.
**********************
At this point in the case I feel a little awkward. I too feel the urge to
jump in and speculate about a crime that sounds possible but hasn't
been proven. I too feel drawn to further speculate about persons
of interest in this speculated crime. I am not being sarcastic.
I really do feel the urge to speculate but I don't want to have to eat my
words later when actual evidence comes out & I don't want to
do anyone an injustice. For now I will try to just point out
mere possibilities and hope something proves helpful.

For those foul play theorists:
My wife had Leukemia and was successfully treated a few years ago
and afterwards she had to undergo a bonemarrow biopsy every
so often. They used a drug to help her through the pain of the
procedure and this drug would not knock her out completely
but she could still feel pain when they withdrew the fluid and bone
marrow only later she would not remember how painful it had been.
We were told that for some people they would not even remember the
procedure at all. Under the influence of this drug one would have difficulty
standing or walking safely even as it was wearing off.
This is similar to some 'date rape' drugs used.

There are two people in this case that were said to have unusual
behavior the night Lauren disappeared, leaving things behind, not remembering etc.

If a crime is ever proven I would be wondering about the possible
involvement of something similar.

. . .I think you may have taken my Walmart comment literally.
I was kidding LOL. My point was that she could be anywhere. . .
A little kidding is good for us now and then.

I realized you were sort of chuckling at my suggestion seeming
(to you) about as unlikely as looking in a department store.

I made a serious response because I believe it is not so unlikely as you
might think. At least it has the plus of being a relatively easy
search.
 
I understand what you mean. I could see LS perhaps shrieking about the gravel (since she had no shoes) and CR was in no condition to carry her. So who comes to her rescue? Now I was estimating that 2:51 would take until about 2:54 to 2:56 to arrive at CR's... but now I'm thinking that due to the gravel, that would slow anyone down with bare feet. I would guess at least 1/2 speed. So arrival at CR's would be more like 2:57 to 3:01 This would make it nearly impossible for AA to have not see anyone. But what if someone offered to carry her or was goofing around and she jumped on CR's back perhaps even slid off and was seriously injured.
CR comes in with her... pretty much dragging her. Now MB is involved. IF she dies right here... suddenly MB is culpable as CR is out of it.
I'm now trying to remember exactly the statements about whether JR was at CR/MB's when CR/LS supposedly arrived, or whether he showed up while they were there... or if JR was never confirmed to be there at all? If JR was there at CR/MB's he suddenly would be foist into it as well. Again, how could they explain this situation to LE? Here there are a few guys and a girl with a broken neck or some fatal injury - some of them are drunk and/or have drugs in their system. Even if they had absolutely nothing to do with it, it would sure look like they did. Perhaps AB is at this scene...
and agrees to move her. How can it be that 5 North with all it's splendor doesn't have cameras? Maybe it does... and Maybe someone is caught on cam carrying LS over their shoulder... and maybe it's even 3:38... then JR heads back up to his place. Perhaps the plan was to bring her back to Smallwood as discussed earlier and it failed. Or a car, etc... If JR helped AB or someone get her out of there and they returned by 4:15 JR might have staged the call to DR to throw off the timeline. Or perhaps as someone theorized earlier that it was a signal to DR that it had been taken care of. Just what time did DR get home? Smallwood has cams, he lives in smallwood... it should be known when he arrived back at home.
If he just happened to show up between 3:00 and 4:00 it would cause me to dig deeper. If he arrived close to 4:00 I would doubt he was asleep at 4:15

Yet, I could also see others carrying LS in some way, either playfully or just helping her glide over the gravel, perhaps over someone's shoulder.
To me it's not inconceivable that this would repeat in the reverse direction back to Smallwood if she took the same way back home. They may have also avoided the Alley on the way back and veered out towards N. College at the Dr's office or Museum and then had been spotted coming down N. College near 10th by the 3:38 witness. In this way the same person could have been seen with her over their shoulder at 2 different times and places.
But this time the accident(or ill intent) may have happened on the way back to AB's or Smallwood.

Great points VV. I have one problem with this whole thing. Why are AA and AB there at all? They're on the other team. They don't belong anywhere near there. If they were there, it would only be to either finish the job with CR or check up on Lauren for JW. I honestly cannot find any common denominator for AA/AB/JW hanging at the JR/MB/CR/DR apts except for Lauren. So that puts them back as "the waiters." Where they waiting for CR or Lauren? JW is trying to find his girlfriend that was supposed to spend the night and everyone knows she's with CR. That's where I'm hung up on JW. Maybe he had someone do his dirty work (AA/AB) but somehow this mess got convoluted with the JR clan and now we have a united front. What to do with Lauren's body? No one is ratting anyone out now because they have a dead girl and everyone played some role, albeit small, but a role that can land them in the slammer for whatever their role is. Why AB would have been the chosen one to take care of it for the night (taking the body elsewhere) may have been that his team had a bit more culpability. He didn't take her far on foot. So was JW there? His house was searched twice. Does JR call DR and ask him to let JW in so he could put Lauren to bed? I suppose this same scenario could apply to anyone but the boyfriend tucking her in wouldn't look as suspicious. My gut is that JW is on the video, as is AB. The other group knows what happened but did some bad things that night that may have contributed, got her all drugged. My gut also tells me he had a reason for driving the roommie to class. He needed to finish the job. The plan to put her in bed didn't work. DR didn't answer his phone. He'll need to try while HT is in class or go with a plan B. He goes back to retrieve the body and things don't look so good. It's not going to work bringing her back to the apt. He has to get rid of her all together. Check his pings. Check her pings - he has her phone. Where did he go after dropping off the roommie? I think close by. I think he had help. My theory for now. As you prob figured, it changes from time to time.
 
VV - I think you might be giving me too much credit here. Unfortunately I don't know any of these kids personally and I don't feel qualified to answer a lot of those questions aside from my own personal opinions. To give you some perspective on where I'm coming from, I received three degrees from IU (undergrad, masters, PhD) so I have lived in Bloomington and have been immersed in the university culture for a large chunk of my adult life, and still live here. I taught at IU for four years and I feel very comfortable saying that I know the "type" of kids we're talking about here. I am around college students nearly every day of my life and when you're surrounded by different types of students, you pick up on a lot of their individual AND group behaviors/characteristics. I've had students in classes who were very similar to these groups in terms of their demographics, so sometimes I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of their actions and the reasons behind their actions (and I refer to these as "groups" because I don't think we can lump every single POI and peripheral person in this case into one group - there are some distinct social groups here and some just happen to have overlaps).

Aside from where I'm coming from personally, I have posted a lot on here today because I feel that a lot of the posts seem to be jumping to conclusions about the relationships between all of these students, specifically between JW and ZO/AB, as well as the whole Indy 500 thing assuming that all of these kids were there together. It seems like these things are being stated as facts, when really we do not know if JW has any sort of friendship/association with ZO/AB, and we really do not know if anyone besides CR and HT hung out with LS at the 500. I just wanted to point those things out so that everyone is a little more careful about not stating these things as facts, and instead saying something like, "Let's assume JW is friends with ZO/AB..." and then stating their theory. I think perpetuating rumors/assumptions as facts might lead us further away from the goal - finding out what happened to Lauren.

I guess because I know the campus and community pretty well, I know that you can live right next to someone and barely even know them. I can think of at least three different apartments I lived in during college where I had neighbors but couldn't even tell you their names. Living next to each other does not equal being friends. Also, Person A can have mutual friends with Person B, but Person A and Person B still don't know each other at all. Heck, you can be in the same fraternity or sorority with someone and barely know their last name (errr...sometimes even first name, sorry to say!). IU is a huge university with tens of thousands of students. I guess I am trying to caution everyone against 1) assuming certain people in this case are close to each other and then 2) suddenly stating those assumed relationships as though they are facts. The only relationships I think we really know in this case are as follows:

LS-HT = roommates
LS-JW = girlfriend/boyfriend
LS-CR = friends
LS-MB = at least acquaintances since she talked to him at his apt.
LS-DR = friends
LS-JR = friends
HT-JW = clearly know each other since she is in his FB pics and he went to her classroom to get her keys to LS's apt.
HT-JR = at least acquaintances since she said she partied at his place in the past, talked to him after LS's disappearance
HT-DR = she wished him happy birthday on his Facebook page
HT-CR = she said they hung out at Indy 500
HT-LS-CR = hung out at Indy 500
ZO-AB = roommates
CR-MB = roommates
CR-MB-JR = live in same townhome complex
DR-JR = at least acquaintances if DR's phone number was in JW's phone

As far as I know, those are the only associations we can definitely state as facts. If I missed any, please feel free to help me out and add them. It's late, that's a lot of acronyms, and I'm ready to go to sleep! :)

With that being said, here are VV's questions and any answers I can provide...a lot of this is just my opinion:

1) Please describe what the range substances and activities would be involved in "Partying" typically at 5 North and Smallwood, or the building where ZO/AB lived which is in between, correct?

Yes, ZO/AB live at 10th & College apartments, which are between Smallwood and 5 North.

I have no firsthand knowledge of what these kids did when they partied. The rumors on campus specific to this case are the same things you've heard here - cocaine, Xanax. Again, those are the rumors I've heard. I do not know any of that to be fact.

2) Do you know know for a fact that any of these people; CR/MB/JR/JW/ZO/AB/HT/LS used any substance other than Alcohol? If so, is it common knowledge who usually supplies?

I do not know any of that for a fact. Again, all rumors point to ZO being a dealer, but as far as I know, no one has been able to confirm it.

I've also heard that JR and DR are dealers and got into trouble in their dorm freshman year for dealing cocaine and heroine - this info came to me privately from someone who was involved in that situation.

3) Why do you think CR was attacked and why do you think that?

My personal theory is that it was drug-related. Why do I think that? Rumors from students. That's all I have. I haven't heard any rumors that it was a fight over LS. My guess is as good as yours here. To further explain my hunch, I think that if LS followed CR out of the building after that fight, she was concerned about him and upset that he was punched - basically she was 'on his side' for whatever the fight was about, or she felt sorry for him and she was showing concern. If the fight was about her because all these guys had crushes on her, I think she would've gotten frustrated and just headed to her apartment at that point. OR if it was about her because these guys were friends with JW (as some have speculated), I doubt she would leave with the guy who got punched by her boyfriend's friends. It just doesn't seem to me like that fight was about LS. I think she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. That is just my opinion.

4) Why do you think those (apparently ZO/AB) who attacked CR were able to do so with apparent impunity?

Probably because fights like this happen all the time between students. It's not a big deal for LE if a kid gets punched. I don't get the sense that security at Smallwood is always monitoring every single thing that happens in that complex. It just seems like a guy getting punched is pretty small potatoes. Get the two parties away from each other and security's job is done. No need to call the police or try to somehow punish them.

5) Why is it that LS seemed to only be partying with guys? What is your take on that?

My personal take on this, as a female who has hung out with "just guys" and no girls on several occasions, especially in college, is that sometimes it is fun to hang out with just guys when there are no other girls around. Guys might not understand this as well as girls, but I don't think anyone should read too much into this. If the guys were up for partying and her roommate was staying in, why wouldn't she just go out and have a fun night with the guys? No other girls around means she would be the center of attention (and what girl doesn't enjoy that from time to time?) and guys are usually just more chill than girls. I could go into more depth on that statement, but I think you probably know what I mean. Sometimes girls are so high maintenance that they actually get on their girl friends' nerves - trust me, it can be very nice to just be around guys who are a little more relaxed.

6) If you have knowledge of any or all of these people, who do you think there should be more focus on?

I have no knowledge other than the facts that have been stated in the case and the rumors/speculation/theories I've heard.

Sorry to write such a long post! I think I'm done for the night.

It's well worth it Berk! Very Thankful. It would be good to take post it notes with each person's initials and stick them on a wall with your linkage to show how they are connected. Similarly to follow each of their movements on that btown map, on the evening of LS disappearance.

I think there are connections between ZO/AB and some of the others but hasn't been confirmed here on WS.

Heroin was the real surprise to me. Way before i knew anything about these people, I smelled a drug scenario, or hard core scene of some kind.
For weeks people have been pushing back on that, thus i've been trying to look at every other possibility and not be so hard on those whom the fingers seemed to be pointing at.

This isn't exactly confirmation of the dealer theories, but it's the closest thing we have so far. And when you bring heroin into the picture, hands down there are some heavies one degree of separation away(not 2 or 3 as it may be for coke). Whether speedballing coke with xanax or heroin it's a very potentially deadly cocktail. This does bring me back to thinking that she OD'd on something and wow... if it involved heroin that's a very serious motivation to eliminate the body.

You did also seem puzzled what motivates people who are wealthy to become involved in dealing. It's a different kind of status than wealth, but a powerful draw. Women are often drawn to high status males - even if that status defies the norms of the greater society. Drug dealers, pimps, Althletes, Senators, Rock Stars, even men in uniform, etc... do get attention because of their status... they have people wanting to be their friend, doing them favors, and they appear desirable to a certain amount of women.
The short answer would be - it's a form of POWER.
 
This is the website that might be the source of some of the misinformation, such as the hour spent at CR/MB apt. http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/06/lauren_spierer_missing_in_indi.php
Since there are many mistakes in this article, I would take information in it with a grain of salt.

If it was AB for certain carrying her, then I cannot discount JW's involvement at all.

It has been confirmed that AB and JW were not connected on Facebook. It appears they were not friends, nor were they fraternity brothers. See quote from Berk13 below.

VV Aside from where I'm coming from personally, I have posted a lot on here today because I feel that a lot of the posts seem to be jumping to conclusions about the relationships between all of these students, specifically between JW and ZO/AB, as well as the whole Indy 500 thing assuming that all of these kids were there together. It seems like these things are being stated as facts, when really we do not know if JW has any sort of friendship/association with ZO/AB, and we really do not know if anyone besides CR and HT hung out with LS at the 500. I just wanted to point those things out so that everyone is a little more careful about not stating these things as facts.

There were 2 people that apparently kicked the snot out of CR early that evening. One I believe was AB, the other with the lasy name beginning with O. All friends of JW. All knew LS was with CR. All knew where CR lived.[/QUOTE]

MSM has reported and CR’s lawyer has said that CR was punched by one person. Rumors say it was ZO. ZO and JW are not friends on Facebook. There is no proof that ZO is a friend /fraternity brother of JW. All might or might not have known that LS was with CR. All might or might not have known where CR lived.

I believe this needs to be cleared up once and for all. Correct me if I am wrong. The man (who a witness saw at 3:38 with a girl slung over his shoulder) was seen by LE on video but not at the time the witness states. Also, that man is familiar to LE. We are making the assumption that it is AB because of the witness' description.

So, I ask - was the man with the girl slung over his shoulder walking in a path that prevented him from being caught on video? The witness would know that. She walked right into him. Does she appear on video? Her account would be easy to verify if there are any sightings of her, which I imagine there are. That's not hard for LE to figure out.

Good point about the video and the witness being on video, but I don’t recall where it has been stated that the witness walked right into the person carrying LS.

It's so hard however, to understand why they haven't obtained and viewed ALL video by now. How many hard-core cases do they have in Bloomington? I'd think they'd have one investigator assigned to doing nothing but viewing videos. JMO.

I seem to remember an early MSM report that LE had requested video from all local businesses along LS’s path and that they had all cooperated. I believe LE has been reviewing the video from the beginning of this case.
 
LoHud quoting a Journal News account of the finder & key on 6/10:

IU student AJ Amin, 19, told The Journal News on Friday that he saw a small purple pouch with a gold key shortly before 3 a.m. that morning on the sidewalk near that building. He said he left it there and that a friend of his put it on a railing when he saw it there a few hours later. "I didn't know they were hers," said Amin, who had not yet given his account to police.

USA Today article published on 7/2 which underscores the fact that ...

A salon worker who noticed keys and a purse near the spot where Spierer was seen on surveillance cameras June 3 has never had a face-to-face interview with police, or the chance to show them the location.

So, co-finder informs newspaper of discovery; BPD has yet to interview finders; BPD may/may not have performed a comprehensive search of the discovery area for additional evidence (i.e., hair, fiber etc) in the event LS returned or retraced her path in search of key/purse.

If this is actually what he said, it narrows down the time window so small that I just don't understand how he could have missed CR/LS out there.
Shortly before 3Am... they came out of the Alley at 2:51 and it would take 3 to 5 minutes at their pace even without gravel to get to 5 North.
There is something wrong with this guys story.
I also agree with another recent post. How could it be that another friend of AA's (initials please) also sees the purse and puts it on the railing. I find this odd as well.
 
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