IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

[VeryVeritas]

I enjoyed reading your response.

For those foul play theorists:
My wife had Leukemia and was successfully treated a few years ago
and afterwards she had to undergo a bonemarrow biopsy every
so often. They used a drug to help her through the pain of the
procedure and this drug would not knock her out completely
but she could still feel pain when they withdrew the fluid and bone
marrow only later she would not remember how painful it had been.
We were told that for some people they would not even remember the
procedure at all. Under the influence of this drug one would have difficulty
standing or walking safely even as it was wearing off.
This is similar to some 'date rape' drugs used.

There are two people in this case that were said to have unusual
behavior the night Lauren disappeared, leaving things behind, not remembering etc.

If a crime is ever proven I would be wondering about the possible
involvement of something similar.


A little kidding is good for us now and then.

I realized you were sort of chuckling at my suggestion seeming
(to you) about as unlikely as looking in a department store.

I made a serious response because I believe it is not so unlikely as you
might think. At least it has the plus of being a relatively easy
search.

Laughter is indeed the best medicine.

However, on college campuses alcohol alone is not enough for some.
Voluntarily taking date rape drugs is common, like: The popular Ecstasy(X), Rophynol (Roofies), or Xanax, and good old fashioned speedballing (Cocaine + Heroin) These are all capable of causing the kind of amnesia that CR describes. Rophynol probably has the most distinct ability to wipe memory clean. All of those drugs suppress inhibitions, as does alcohol.

Xanax+Adderall is known as a poor man's speedball. At the same time it's been posted that the word at Kilroy's was Xanax+cocaine was being used CR/LS. Yet they were also clearly drinking. Rophynol is sometimes taken to accelerate the effect of alcohol but it's many times stronger. The thing with many street drugs is they are not pure and drug interactions are not on the labels. For example. Cocaine is often cut with other substances which are not always inert, like Ecstasy. if someone had an experience with Xanax+Cocaine (which in itself can be fatal) and wanted to repeat it, it's possible that the next time around it would really be Xanax+Cocaine+Ecstasy (which is much more risky)
Add some alcohol and you might just start forgetting about your phone, your shoes, etc...

I was doing some research on these combinations to see if anything stood out with the pattern here. Aside from most of them being able to lower your blood pressure and halt breathing, an interesting thing is that Rophynol (which wipes memory clean) seems to peak 2 hrs after ingestion.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Something occurred to me when considering that LS never made it back to 5 North...
it's MB sitting there stuyding and passing a lie detector about his statements...

It seems to me that a sort of deja vu experience could have been in MB's mind when he took and passed the Polygraph. For example. Earlier that night at around midnight, LS stops by at CR/MB's and wants to go to JR's and "party" MB declines, she doesn't want to stay. So she and DR and CR leave for JR's and then from there CR/LS leave for Kilroys. When I look at it this way... it would be like MB moving the timeline up to when CR orginally left that evening around midnight, and not at 3:00am. This way, if he thinks about that, the polygraph would not show that he was lying as long as he didn't think about the exact time.
Saltzman says that CR was not the last person to see her alive... but how can he say that if CR has amnesia?

 

[Carmen101]

The fall and push have been theorized. Stairs however, hasn't been much discussed. For some reason I have always envisioned CR/MB and JR as being on a second or third floor. Can someone verify?

JR apparently lives in Unit #297 which is located at the western edge of the 5 North Building.

Each unit is a 3-story townhouse, except JR’s, which has a 4th floor. Each unit has its own entrance on the north side of the building. JR’s unit has a Juliet balcony on the second floor, outside the entertainment room.

 

[Carmen101]

http://tonygatto.com/
Man Who Confronted Lauren Spierer’s Friend at Smallwood Identified as [ZO]
Posted on July 4th, 2011 13:54 by Tony Gatto

“Also connected to friends of Lauren is one of [ZO’s] roommates, [AB], a buddy of [ZO] from the Indianapolis area. [AB] is seen in a video with [JR].”

I have changed the quote above removing names and replacing them with initials in brackets.

AB has apparently quit Facebook.
His profile that has now disappeared:
Flat *advertiser censored* broke since 1991. Don’t do ****, but talk ****
AB did not list himself as an IU student.
How is AB living in Bloomington with no visible means of support?
Is ZO paying AB’s expenses?
ZO is photographed a lot with his shirt pulled up showing his abs.

If, as been speculated, ZO, DR, and JR are the dealers, maybe they do all know each other.
Maybe LS was texting DR or ZO to get something.
Perhaps LS went to the 5th floor of Smallwood to get something and the plan was to return to the bar to drink and take something or to go to her apt.
Running into ZO and his crew skewed that plan, so maybe they rushed out of Smallwood to go to CR’s place and get away from ZO.
Maybe the “activity in the alley” was that ZO and his crew caught up with them and that’s when CR got punched or LS yelled at ZO and company for punching CR at Smallwood.
This is where it gets tough. CR and LS go to his apt. and MB has said that LS stated she wanted to party more.
Why wasn’t she upset by the fight?
Maybe when she got to JR’s apt., AB was there. Maybe she stays until JR passes out and feels unsafe with AB, so she leaves and goes to College to walk home.
Perhaps AB goes through the alley and between the buildings on 10th Street and intercepts LS there.
That would fit with the bar manager’s statement.
ZO and AB’s apt. is right there.

 

[Carmen101]

Why did “someone” tell the bar manager witness to stop talking to the media? If this someone is LE, that sighting might be a crucial aspect of this case and LE does not want to show their hand until they have enough to make an arrest.

Perhaps they do not want the suspect to know they have him on video and that they have a witness. I do recall that LE said none of the POI's fit the description the witness gave, but that could have been to make the POI's relax. And LE might have said the timing was wrong for the same reason.

They might be hoping that this person feels comfortable and thinks he has gotten away with something. But they are watching, hoping he will reveal more.

 

[docwho3]

Thanks for the nice response.

. . .an interesting thing is that Rophynol (which wipes memory clean)
seems to peak 2 hrs after ingestion.

I mentioned a particular type of drug because I have a particular
scenario in mind as a possibility. The fact that 2 people have exhibited
symptoms that could be caused by such a drug helps that scenario along.
It is not anywhere near being a complete theory yet and I am still
awaiting more evidence to surface before posting.

 

[Carmen101]

MSM has stated that the housing of CR, JR, and JW have been searched by dogs. My guess is that LE has also checked the apts. for other clues and have probably done DNA and other tests on everything they collected from the apts.

Perhaps they have most of their ducks in a row and have a pretty good idea of whom they want to go after, but they need the body or a little more info.

On the other hand, is they have checked the apts., and still don't have much to go on, maybe something else happened to LS.

According to HT, Lauren was to be staying with JW that night./QUOTE]

I have heard this also. Maybe Lauren started to go to JW's house. She could have fallen down an outside stairwell that goes to a basement or into a window well.

Maybe she got confused and went into the wrong house and passed out. If that house is empty this summer, she might not be found until school starts in a few weeks.

If JR was passed out when she left, maybe she walked into the construction site, stumbled and fell in such a way that she was not visible.

I think JR is being truthful about being the last to see LS because who wants to be the last person to see a now missing person?

MB, CR's attorney, and HT have all stated that JR saw her last.

Maybe all JR knows is that LS left his apt. He might not know when or her direction or what happened next.

 

[Pedrosmom]

Something occurred to me when considering that LS never made it back to 5 North...
it's MB sitting there stuyding and passing a lie detector about his statements...

It seems to me that a sort of deja vu experience could have been in MB's mind when he took and passed the Polygraph. For example. Earlier that night at around midnight, LS stops by at CR/MB's and wants to go to JR's and "party" MB declines, she doesn't want to stay. So she and DR and CR leave for JR's and then from there CR/LS leave for Kilroys. When I look at it this way... it would be like MB moving the timeline up to when CR orginally left that evening around midnight, and not at 3:00am. This way, if he thinks about that, the polygraph would not show that he was lying as long as he didn't think about the exact time.
Saltzman says that CR was not the last person to see her alive... but how can he say that if CR has amnesia?

I think Saltzman says that by default as to the info offered by JR (HT), seeing her turn the corner heading home at 4:30AM, would place JR as the one to have last seen Lauren person, and not info remembered by CR. I thought all 3were represented by the same atty?

It's definitely fishy that JR didn't take a poly. Perhaps he couldn't do it because he'd fail on the timeline. That timeline was fabricated and I think we can safely back everything up an hour. Did JR give a DNA sample? If not that would send my hinky meter flying.

 

[Carmen101]

One more theory:

IF LS was supposed to meet up with JW at some point that night and didn't show, maybe JW texted HT or another mutual friend to find out where LS was when he couldn't reach her.

Perhaps the unthinkable happened because of a break-up and jealousy.
We know JW was up relatively early the next morning to drive his roommate to class.
He became very concerned very fast.
He called the parents to give them a version of the story.

But why would he confront CR that next morning? Still angry or trying to find out what happened?

 

[Carmen101]

I think Saltzman says that by default as to the info offered by JR (HT), seeing her turn the corner heading home at 4:30AM, would place JR as the one to have last seen Lauren person, and not info remembered by CR. I thought all 3were represented by the same atty?

It's definitely fishy that JR didn't take a poly. Perhaps he couldn't do it because he'd fail on the timeline. That timeline was fabricated and I think we can safely back everything up an hour. Did JR give a DNA sample? If not that would send my hinky meter flying.

They are not all represented by the same attorney-- each has his own. I believe it has been reported in MSM that MB and CR gave DNA samples. JR was not mentioned.

 

[Carmen101]

If JR is, indeed, in Barcelona, Spain, or Israel, how easily could he be extradited to be interviewed?

Does anyone know the extradition policies of Spain and Israel?

 

[Carmen101]

Maybe AB and ZO were at JR's when LS went there the second time.

It has been said that ZO is short-tempered. If he is on body-building drugs, that could affect his moods and the level of his aggression. Perhaps he is the one these kids are afraid of. Maybe that's why HT friended him on Facebook shortly after LS disappeared-- perhaps she is protecting herself by being friendly to ZO.

If LS had argued with ZO earlier, maybe he was angry with her. She left, AB cut her off at the pass, took her back to JR's and something bad happened. Maybe the 4:15 call to DR was a panic call or one seeking info-- did you give/sell anything to LS tonight and if so, what?

And if all of this happened on the first floor and JR's bedroom is on the 4th floor, he might not have heard anything and might not have known that his phone was used to call DR. He finds out the next morning and assumes it was LS or says it was because he is afraid of ZO.

I don't know, there are so many possible scenarios. I believe I have given at least 3 completely different ones in the last hour or so. I am just trying to wrap my brain around what could have possibly happened to Lauren.

 

[Pedrosmom]

MSM has stated that the housing of CR, JR, and JW have been searched by dogs. My guess is that LE has also checked the apts. for other clues and have probably done DNA and other tests on everything they collected from the apts.

Perhaps they have most of their ducks in a row and have a pretty good idea of whom they want to go after, but they need the body or a little more info.

On the other hand, is they have checked the apts., and still don't have much to go on, maybe something else happened to LS.

According to HT, Lauren was to be staying with JW that night./QUOTE]

I have heard this also. Maybe Lauren started to go to JW's house. She could have fallen down an outside stairwell that goes to a basement or into a window well.

Maybe she got confused and went into the wrong house and passed out. If that house is empty this summer, she might not be found until school starts in a few weeks.

If JR was passed out when she left, maybe she walked into the construction site, stumbled and fell in such a way that she was not visible.

I think JR is being truthful about being the last to see LS because who wants to be the last person to see a now missing person?

MB, CR's attorney, and HT have all stated that JR saw her last.

Maybe all JR knows is that LS left his apt. He might not know when or her direction or what happened next.

The $64,000 question - Why Would JR implicate himself as being the last one to see Lauren leave? (and why 4:30?)

Based on info gathered thus far, I do not believe LS was alive at 4:30 AM when she apparently began her walk home. He is trying to throw off the scent for some reason but it's all pointing to him. Which is why I don't believe that JR is the prime suspect. I think JR made a phone call at 4:15 and had to account for it but throwing yourself in the middle of a missing persons case as suspect numero uno defies logic and reason. Having someone else (HT) do it for you is even more strange. There is a reason and I believe we are all searching for that right here.

Perhaps his DNA will be found on Lauren some day and denying any sighting of her would be prematurely stupid. I personally think it was JW and/or the group that fought CR at Smallwood earlier in the evening, leaning more toward JW. He was the jilted boyfriend that night. You know what they say about crimes, start with the people closest to them and spread out from there. I think they started with JW and they're still there. Others may disagree that the Smallwood altercation had anything to do with Lauren, but I think it had everything to do with Lauren. In fact, I don't believe it was quite over. I think the Smallwood videos would be interesting as to who came and went in the wee hours of the morning. I wondered why they fought so hard to keep the police from getting them. I wondered if JW came to Smallwood looking for Lauren. That would blow his sleeping alibi.

As for JR... take a shot at it. Most of us are stumped.

Edit - I do believe AB and ZO were at JR's building that night. Not in his apartment per se, but definitely in the gravel lot where Lauren was.

 

[Tr.]

3) Why do you think CR was attacked and why do you think that?

My personal theory is that it was drug-related. Why do I think that? Rumors from students. That's all I have. I haven't heard any rumors that it was a fight over LS. My guess is as good as yours here. To further explain my hunch, I think that if LS followed CR out of the building after that fight, she was concerned about him and upset that he was punched - basically she was 'on his side' for whatever the fight was about, or she felt sorry for him and she was showing concern. If the fight was about her because all these guys had crushes on her, I think she would've gotten frustrated and just headed to her apartment at that point. OR if it was about her because these guys were friends with JW (as some have speculated), I doubt she would leave with the guy who got punched by her boyfriend's friends. It just doesn't seem to me like that fight was about LS. I think she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. That is just my opinion.

What if the altercation were made to appear drug related?
What if a drug related matter were used to initiate an altercation for the purpose of achieving some other goal?

I wonder if LS was in the wrong place at the wrong time. After all, she was near her own apartment.
Maybe ZO and AB were in the right place at the right time?

LS and CR were most likely (but not necessarily) headed for her apartment.
They may have also been headed to DR's apartment especially if HT were there.

Why didn't LS and CR just go to her apartment after the beating? Why not DR's?
This (IMO) seems like a logical course of action.
I wonder if ZO and AB made a stand (so-to-speak) between CR/LS and LS's apartment for the purpose of deterring them from going there?
Throw in a few choice threats and a sucker punch and you have enough "shock value" that would serve to send the victim/s scurrying in the opposite direction maybe.

Suppose either ZO and/or AB really were after CR....I mean really out to get him.
Then this would make the altercation about CR And "his woman" by association.

"His woman", "my woman"...that's how some of these young gangsta boys refer to their girlfriends now (around here in Indy any way.) ZO and AB are from Indy.

 

[Tr.]

Maybe all JR knows is that LS left his apt. He might not know when or her direction or what happened next.

I think that is very possible. I get the feeling that he got the time wrong.
There are however, some plausible theories on this thread as to why JR could have intentionally reported the time incorrectly.

 

[Pedrosmom]

What if the altercation were made to appear drug related?
What if a drug related matter were used to initiate an altercation for the purpose of achieving some other goal?

I wonder if LS was in the wrong place at the wrong time. After all, she was near her own apartment.
Maybe ZO and AB were in the right place at the right time?

LS and CR were most likely (but not necessarily) headed for her apartment.
They may have also been headed to DR's apartment especially if HT were there.

Why didn't LS and CR just go to her apartment after the beating? Why not DR's?
This (IMO) seems like a logical course of action.
I wonder if ZO and AB made a stand (so-to-speak) between CR/LS and LS's apartment for the purpose of deterring them from going there?
Throw in a few choice threats and a sucker punch and you have enough "shock value" that would serve to send the victim/s scurrying in the opposite direction maybe.

Suppose either ZO and/or AB really were after CR....I mean really out to get him.
Then this would make the altercation about CR And "his woman" by association.

"His woman", "my woman"...that's how some of these young gangsta boys refer to their girlfriends now (around here in Indy any way.) ZO and AB are from Indy.

LS and CR were most likely (but not necessarily) headed for her apartment.
They may have also been headed to DR's apartment especially if HT were there. (Bold is mine)

It has been well established that LS and CR were headed to CR's apt.
What do you know about DR and HT? I believe HT stayed in that night and DR didn't enter the case until he was on the receiving end of JR's phone call, which, we don't know if it was answered or not. Where do you see DR in all of this? Just wondering. Another set of eyes is always good.

I do believe ZO and AB were out to get someone. Whether it was CR, they already did the job back at Smallwood. I'm thinking they were out looking for Lauren.

Lauren's boyfriend was JW, not ZO or AB.

 

[Pedrosmom]

If JR is, indeed, in Barcelona, Spain, or Israel, how easily could he be extradited to be interviewed?

Does anyone know the extradition policies of Spain and Israel?

Spain extradites to US for murder and other capital offenses:

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/1_60000/23/4/00044167.pdf

Israel has US cooperation extradition laws but not as easy to extradite:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Archive/Communiques/1995/EXTRADITION IN ISRAEL

Why they didn't yank his passport is very telling as to where he stands in position on the POI list.

 

[Tr.]

Actually, in the real world LE usually won't release theories at all that
name persons & particularly will not act without evidence.
Back in their offices they might kick around ideas but you usually don't see
them posting theories on a case they are working in forums.


Let me make the distinction that what we do without the evidence that
LE has should be more restrained and careful so we do not create more
Richard Jewells and so we do not end up with egg on our faces
when/if the wild speculations are finally proven to be just wild speculation
made by people who could not be bothered to wait for some evidence
to come in before speaking. (That is my opinion and not a directive for
anyone else.)

With all due respect, in the "real world" there are a lot of unsolved missing person cases.

 

[Tr.]

LS and CR were most likely (but not necessarily) headed for her apartment.
They may have also been headed to DR's apartment especially if HT were there. (Bold is mine)

It has been well established that LS and CR were headed to CR's apt.
What do you know about DR and HT? I believe HT stayed in that night and DR didn't enter the case until he was on the receiving end of JR's phone call, which, we don't know if it was answered or not. Where do you see DR in all of this? Just wondering. Another set of eyes is always good.

I do believe ZO and AB were out to get someone. Whether it was CR, they already did the job back at Smallwood. I'm thinking they were out looking for Lauren.

Lauren's boyfriend was JW, not ZO or AB.

Right. That posting is in reference to the altercation at Small Wood...sorry.

In a nutshell, I'm theorizing that ZO and AB directed (if you will) the movements of the victims by starting an altercation.

I'm beginning to think that the timing, location, and intensity of the altercation were carefully coordinated as to steer the victim to another location and/or possibly with the original intent of separating LS from CR.

Whether or not the latter, the end result was just that.
That being said...what other event may they have coordinated?

 

[goodgirl65]

Something occurred to me when considering that LS never made it back to 5 North...
it's MB sitting there stuyding and passing a lie detector about his statements...

It seems to me that a sort of deja vu experience could have been in MB's mind when he took and passed the Polygraph. For example. Earlier that night at around midnight, LS stops by at CR/MB's and wants to go to JR's and "party" MB declines, she doesn't want to stay. So she and DR and CR leave for JR's and then from there CR/LS leave for Kilroys. When I look at it this way... it would be like MB moving the timeline up to when CR orginally left that evening around midnight, and not at 3:00am. This way, if he thinks about that, the polygraph would not show that he was lying as long as he didn't think about the exact time.
Saltzman says that CR was not the last person to see her alive... but how can he say that if CR has amnesia?

Perhaps that is the case but im pretty sure there were key question(s) that were asked of all the POIs during the LDTs, such as:

"Do you know where Lauren Spierer is?"
"Do you know what happened to Lauren Spierer"
"Did you harm Lauren Spierer?"