IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #21
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A little news would help, no doubt. I got a bit shell-shocked last night. I was watching last week's "So You Think You Can Dance" with my daughter, and the song "I Know It's Over," covered by Jeff Buckley, came on. It just crushed me, particularly this: "It's so easy to laugh, it's so easy to hate, it takes guts to be gentle and kind," followed by "Mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head." What's really needed here, IMO, is for one or more POI to have guts and be gentle and kind. I just wish this had happened at the start.
At this point any POI who is repped by an atty had to tell their parents something about why they need this atty.
If the substance reaction theory is correct and 2 or more people were present and are guilty of the felony / hiding LS. Do you think
1. Only the child is sure about his/ her involvement
2. The child / father only (hiding from mother and siblings)
3. The child/ mother only (hiding from father and siblings)
4. The child/ mother /father (hiding from siblings)
If the substance reaction theory is correct and 2 or more people were present and are guilty of the felony / hiding LS. Do you think
1. Only the child is sure about his/ her involvement
2. The child / father only (hiding from mother and siblings)
3. The child/ mother only (hiding from father and siblings)
4. The child/ mother /father (hiding from siblings)
It's been alluded to on multiple occasions that. . . . JR admitted to being the last person to see LS . . .and similar lines of questioning like why would JR concede he was the last person with her.
However upon further scrutiny and reviewing others' statements, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see is JR simply recollecting his time of contact with LS but not necessarily knowing right at that moment that no one else would subsequently claim to have seen her later than his time of contact.
I can envision this scenario:
--JR gives the now widely-known account of LS leaving his place at 4:15AM, watching her round the corner at 4:30AM, etc to HT upon probably being contacted by HT or other LS friends sometime on Friday afternoon June 3 when the initial search was first ramping up. When he simply reported the time he last saw her, he would not have known with certainty that would turn out to be the final sighting by anyone. (hypothetically presuming his innocence in the disappearance). This would be similar to MB or DR also giving their accounts of the evening's activities to HT, JW or others the next day -- the only difference being that once DR last saw her at 2AM or MB last saw her at 3AM there was someone else who reported seeing her afterwards, thus taking DR and MB off the hook as the last contact. I could imagine HT, JW and friends on Friday afternoon making the rounds of people who LS was with on Thurs night saying they now can't locate LS and asking various parties when they last saw her. At that moment, all of the innocent parties would not have pre-planned any answers, know who else would be questioned, or how to match up stories/times. Those parties also wouldn't know if she's been missing since 3AM, 4AM, 6AM, 8AM, or exactly when because HT/JW/LE couldn't have known that then either. Once HT, JW or even LE, etc had the accounts from everyone, they could sequence the events and determine that JR then defaulted into the "last contact" position since no one claimed any knowledge after him. Once JR had told what he told to HT, he couldn't exactly backtrack on that if he then found out afterwards he was unfortunately for him the latest contact, thus beginning his need for an attorney.
I don't mean to split hairs, but I think there is a difference in JR "admitting" he was the last to see her, vs JR finding out later that no one claims to have seen her later than him. And it is conceivable that JR was in fact not the last to have seen her, since we obviously don't know an exact time LS disappeared. While admittedly less likely than other scenarios, LS could've wandered off-camera for an hour+ or fallen asleep somewhere until 7AM-ish before being picked up by someone who has not stepped forward or been identified. We're just assuming the actual disappearance began rather simultaneously with the last sighting.
However upon further scrutiny and reviewing others' statements, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see is JR simply recollecting his time of contact with LS but not necessarily knowing right at that moment that no one else would subsequently claim to have seen her later than his time of contact.
I can envision this scenario:
--JR gives the now widely-known account of LS leaving his place at 4:15AM, watching her round the corner at 4:30AM, etc to HT upon probably being contacted by HT or other LS friends sometime on Friday afternoon June 3 when the initial search was first ramping up. When he simply reported the time he last saw her, he would not have known with certainty that would turn out to be the final sighting by anyone. (hypothetically presuming his innocence in the disappearance). This would be similar to MB or DR also giving their accounts of the evening's activities to HT, JW or others the next day -- the only difference being that once DR last saw her at 2AM or MB last saw her at 3AM there was someone else who reported seeing her afterwards, thus taking DR and MB off the hook as the last contact. I could imagine HT, JW and friends on Friday afternoon making the rounds of people who LS was with on Thurs night saying they now can't locate LS and asking various parties when they last saw her. At that moment, all of the innocent parties would not have pre-planned any answers, know who else would be questioned, or how to match up stories/times. Those parties also wouldn't know if she's been missing since 3AM, 4AM, 6AM, 8AM, or exactly when because HT/JW/LE couldn't have known that then either. Once HT, JW or even LE, etc had the accounts from everyone, they could sequence the events and determine that JR then defaulted into the "last contact" position since no one claimed any knowledge after him. Once JR had told what he told to HT, he couldn't exactly backtrack on that if he then found out afterwards he was unfortunately for him the latest contact, thus beginning his need for an attorney.
I don't mean to split hairs, but I think there is a difference in JR "admitting" he was the last to see her, vs JR finding out later that no one claims to have seen her later than him. And it is conceivable that JR was in fact not the last to have seen her, since we obviously don't know an exact time LS disappeared. While admittedly less likely than other scenarios, LS could've wandered off-camera for an hour+ or fallen asleep somewhere until 7AM-ish before being picked up by someone who has not stepped forward or been identified. We're just assuming the actual disappearance began rather simultaneously with the last sighting.
You know, I know there are cases where parents have "cleaned up" their child's involvement in something nefarious, i.e., with money/bribes or by helping the child stay out of sight, etc. I suppose the latter could have occurred here, but I've seen no actual proof of it, apart from JR perhaps being in Europe. But he's also been in Europe before, so that in itself isn't altogether unusual.
A previous post here speculated that while a POI might have been present if LS indeed OD'd, a "higher up" might have disposed of her body, so the POI doesn't even know her final resting spot. That's always a possibility, but the POI would still face legal charges for being an accomplice, I'd think.
But to try and answer your question, I'd go with only the child knows, with perhaps one parent suspecting. I don't think that's why any POI has retained legal counsel, though, more that it might account for being inaccessible.
Jupiter812
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All easily well within the realm of possibility. Could also explain why no one (from the above group anyway) is saying much: because they don't know anything more than what they've already said.
Alternatively, and just for the record:
* JR may have had no choice but to place her at his house because someone else was present and he knew he couldn't get away with changing the 4:15/4:30 times.
* JR could have been so wasted he guesstimated the time, or someone else fed him the time or forced him to state said times.
* JR is lying about the time to protect himself or someone else.
Jupiter812
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I think it's quite transparent that if JR is in Europe now, he's essentially in hiding. If he had been in Spain first semester rather than second, it would not be so unusual. He had only been back what, 2 weeks or so?
Yikes, to be a parent and suspect your own child of this level of wrongdoing. That's some tension in the household.
As I mentioned, I was noodling around on Twitter, and I thought I read that this guy is a friend of LS, but I could be wrong.
This guy is convinced that the cause of the fight is integral to solving the case and he has communicated with TG via Twitter about it.
Jupiter812
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Alright. Not my favorite topic but this has been bothering me.
If two different search/cadaver dogs indicated LS at a dumpster "in the area" but yet LE doesn't believe she's in the landfill, what does this mean? Do any of these fit?
a. The dogs are wrong.
b. She was in the dumpster at some point but was moved before the dumpster was emptied.
c. She was near the dumpster alive or not, but never in it.
d. Other?
If two different search/cadaver dogs indicated LS at a dumpster "in the area" but yet LE doesn't believe she's in the landfill, what does this mean? Do any of these fit?
a. The dogs are wrong.
b. She was in the dumpster at some point but was moved before the dumpster was emptied.
c. She was near the dumpster alive or not, but never in it.
d. Other?
Jupiter812
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At least he's consistent and persistent! And he could very well be right about it being the key to the case.
I agree with you, Jupiter. It seems that JR got out of Bloomington fast, perhaps after realizing that he was the last person to have seen LS. Did he ever talk to LE directly? My impression is that he did not, and I believe he is the one LE referred to when they said they were sure all the POI's would talk to them if the need arose.
I also agree with the poster who said that JR probably did not know that LS was missing when he said she had been at his apt. after 3 a.m.
JR might have had an "oh ****" moment when he realized he was the last to see LS. He could very well not know what happened to LS, but he knows he is in deep trouble because of what she presumably consumed at his apt.
Speculation is that he is in Israel or Spain. You can't read his body language in an interview if you cannot interview him in person.
He said on the JR must talk site that he doesn't know anyone in the case just found them on twitter and started harassing them to try to get answers. But no he doesn't know LS or any of the POI.
I do agree it's weird that he went back to Europe, under the circumstances. I guess I'm playing devil's advocate, i.e., how often does he go there? But since JR's kind of high on my list ... well, yeah, I agree.
There should be unbearable tension for a parent to suspect or know ... but in the case I've mentioned before, the mother allegedly took a limo to a victim's house with a cash settlement, to avoid court. Appalling as that sounds, and it sounds very appalling.
Jupiter812
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LOL at the choice of a limo. I wonder if she intended it as a covert operation or an overt way to demonstrate she meant bidness.
JR has made no public statement. No one knows where he is, according to Tony Gatto's blog. The media apparently got the info regarding JR's version of events from HT. Since LE included the 4:30 am sighting by witness in their timeline, we assume that JR was the "witness," and that he has spoken to police.
Aside from that sighting at College & 11th at 4:15 - 4:30 am, the rest of the story about trying to persuade LS to stay on the couch may have been merely to present his actions in a more favorable light to HT.
cluciano63
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Well, that is pretty ridiculous then.
JR could be a dual citizen of US & another European country and/or Israel. Seems to me that people tend to make too many assumptions about the background of the POI.
For example, on another board, the man referred to as "Sketch" (for a sketch made related to a rape case in 2005) is assumed to be a local African-American despite the fact UVA, VTech, Charlottesville and the state of Virginia generally are extremely diverse.
Plus, JR may have had good reason to not make is location known. People would certainly have been following him around and pestering him about this case had he stayed. He might not know more than what he has already said, and if he lost his temper the media would smear him. Already, CR, MB and another of LS's and HT's roommates (who said that the media should leave them alone) have been reported as acting unreasonably when they refused to speak publicly.
For example, on another board, the man referred to as "Sketch" (for a sketch made related to a rape case in 2005) is assumed to be a local African-American despite the fact UVA, VTech, Charlottesville and the state of Virginia generally are extremely diverse.
Plus, JR may have had good reason to not make is location known. People would certainly have been following him around and pestering him about this case had he stayed. He might not know more than what he has already said, and if he lost his temper the media would smear him. Already, CR, MB and another of LS's and HT's roommates (who said that the media should leave them alone) have been reported as acting unreasonably when they refused to speak publicly.
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