Jupiter812
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Kiln Wood, nice to hear from you. I miss D. Dunne too. They don't make them like that any more.
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #22
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phantomthought
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One thought I have.That is the story JR was telling the day after LS disappeared when most likely HT or JW called him looking for her.Has their been any word from his attorney (not CR's) that he is sticking to that story now.Because I can see him covering for LS and CR before he realized how serious this was.
Darcyline
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I don't know if the story has changed. If it has, LE is keeping very, very quiet about it.
So is the idea that JR never saw her, CR...calls JR and says hey, can you say you saw Lauren so JR says ok, claims he saw her for an extended time period, makes up the story about her leaving, makes up the reason for the phone call, and MB is also filled in with this story?
I don't know-it just seems overly complicated for me? An easier explanation for me is that if CR is guilty then JR is to some extent as well (helped in some way? Supplied the drugs?) or CR has something major on JR that would literally make him implicate himself in a murder.
It is just something I am stuck on when I try to think of scenarios where Lauren dies earlier and JR has nothing to do with it. Maybe I am not using my imagination enough?
So is the idea that JR never saw her, CR...calls JR and says hey, can you say you saw Lauren so JR says ok, claims he saw her for an extended time period, makes up the story about her leaving, makes up the reason for the phone call, and MB is also filled in with this story?
I don't know-it just seems overly complicated for me? An easier explanation for me is that if CR is guilty then JR is to some extent as well (helped in some way? Supplied the drugs?) or CR has something major on JR that would literally make him implicate himself in a murder.
It is just something I am stuck on when I try to think of scenarios where Lauren dies earlier and JR has nothing to do with it. Maybe I am not using my imagination enough?
IMHO, if that was the way JRs story started, he would quickly have recanted that story once he realized that LS was missing/presumed dead. He would be able to easily say that HT didn't report the story correctly (since AFAIK we have never actually heard directly from JR)
If you realize that you're a prime suspect (either in the eyes of LE or the public) and you know for a fact that you had nothing to do with it, I'd imagine that you would figure out a way to get your true story out there.
phantomthought
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Link originally posted by Jupiter812 http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/12/news.qp-0165757.sto
As I read this part of the story:
When the Indiana University student didn’t answer text messages sent to her cellphone by 11 a.m. Friday, June 3, friend and fellow Smallwood Plaza dweller Ilana Portner said she knew something was up and went to check on her.
“If one of us doesn’t text somebody, we just knock,” said Portner, a 19-year-old communications student from Philadelphia. “We spend our whole days together up until it’s time to go to bed.”
At first, the group of friends, many of whom live with Spierer on the fifth floor of Smallwood, thought Spierer might be sleeping, Portner said.
All of these friends she had living on the 5th floor and her roommate HT none of them herd the next day about the altercation with CR?They are knocking at her door wondering why she is not answering texts but no one tells them about her leaving with CR at 2:30 in the morning?Where is HT when Porter is knocking on the door at 11 A.M.I just feel they thought they knew exactly where LS was.
As I read this part of the story:
When the Indiana University student didn’t answer text messages sent to her cellphone by 11 a.m. Friday, June 3, friend and fellow Smallwood Plaza dweller Ilana Portner said she knew something was up and went to check on her.
“If one of us doesn’t text somebody, we just knock,” said Portner, a 19-year-old communications student from Philadelphia. “We spend our whole days together up until it’s time to go to bed.”
At first, the group of friends, many of whom live with Spierer on the fifth floor of Smallwood, thought Spierer might be sleeping, Portner said.
All of these friends she had living on the 5th floor and her roommate HT none of them herd the next day about the altercation with CR?They are knocking at her door wondering why she is not answering texts but no one tells them about her leaving with CR at 2:30 in the morning?Where is HT when Porter is knocking on the door at 11 A.M.I just feel they thought they knew exactly where LS was.
Darcyline
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Yeah, it is just hard for me to imagine that scenario happening and him just shuffling away with his lawyers somewhere.
The only scenarios I have been able to come up with that clears JR completely includes 1. He is telling the truth and she left and something happened after she left 2. He MOSTLY told the truth-like, maybe she was going to someone else's apartment instead of home and he just said home for some reason (out of friendship? Loyalty? Knowing it is a DD who could harm him?) or 3. (least likely to me) someone threatened his life or knows some deep dark secret that could be exposed if he didn't lie to cover for them.
The first two are the most likely for me IF I am thinking of scenarios that clear JR of any direct guilt.
The only scenarios I have been able to come up with that clears JR completely includes 1. He is telling the truth and she left and something happened after she left 2. He MOSTLY told the truth-like, maybe she was going to someone else's apartment instead of home and he just said home for some reason (out of friendship? Loyalty? Knowing it is a DD who could harm him?) or 3. (least likely to me) someone threatened his life or knows some deep dark secret that could be exposed if he didn't lie to cover for them.
The first two are the most likely for me IF I am thinking of scenarios that clear JR of any direct guilt.
I can imagine the following:
HT assumes that LS has either made her way to JWs after going to Kilroy's
OR
LS and HT always close their bedroom doors, so HT doesn't notice that LS isn't there when she leaves for class in the morning
OR
HT is pissed at LS because she thinks that LS has been ignoring her texts so she doesn't really give a crap where LS is that morning
any of those scenarios work for me - and there are probably lots more
AND
re the altercation:
if the persons who initiated the altercation weren't friends of HT, she might not have heard about it or heard it happen OR if there are often altercations in the hallway she might simply have ignored it
AND
do we really know that HT knew that LS went to Kilroy's with CR? We know that she knew after the fact -- but might not have known that morning. Depends on where she got the info from....
HT assumes that LS has either made her way to JWs after going to Kilroy's
OR
LS and HT always close their bedroom doors, so HT doesn't notice that LS isn't there when she leaves for class in the morning
OR
HT is pissed at LS because she thinks that LS has been ignoring her texts so she doesn't really give a crap where LS is that morning
any of those scenarios work for me - and there are probably lots more
AND
re the altercation:
if the persons who initiated the altercation weren't friends of HT, she might not have heard about it or heard it happen OR if there are often altercations in the hallway she might simply have ignored it
AND
do we really know that HT knew that LS went to Kilroy's with CR? We know that she knew after the fact -- but might not have known that morning. Depends on where she got the info from....
phantomthought
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My thought was JR thought he was covering for CR and LS spending the night together.I think JR got the first call (from HT)since no one really knew CR and would have his number and the conversation could have been along the lines of where is LS she left with CR never came home and her BF is looking for her.Granted not the most likely scenario but I am just hung up on something not being right the next morning as I said in my last post.
phantomthought
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The thing is you would have to add this Portner girl and the "group of friends" to the list of people that did not hear about the altercation.Also HT is sitting in class at 2 o'clock blissfully unaware of where LS is yet by 4:30 plus the time it would take JW to get from her class to LS apartment they are going to the police with I assume JR's story in hand.Granted I do not know that for sure but I have a hard time believing you would go to the police and they would take you seriously if all you had was a person leaving a cell phone in a bar and not being in bed a 2oclock in the afternoon.Seams like they all of a sudden knew exactly who to call or had already done so.Then again HT could have only known about HT leaving at 12:30 to go to JR's.
Darcyline
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It is possible he was trying to cover for CR for a more benign reason-spending the night with another man's girlfriend rather than...murder or something. I just feel like once he realized Lauren may be dead or missing for real his reaction may not be to flee the city lawyer up and only give the same rigid statement through his lawyers. It just feels like the story would break down fairly quickly if MB and JR were covering for CR just being with Lauren once the stakes got really high. Especially JR who put himself in the most vulnerable position here. For some reason, he has escaped most suspicion, but traditionally when a man is the last person to see a woman alive he is automatically suspect #1.
What are your feelings on what isn't right the next day/morning? Do you think they all knew she wasn't at home already? Or figured she was with CR or JW?
I do like that we are discussing some new options and scenarios-this topic has been way too slow lately!
What are your feelings on what isn't right the next day/morning? Do you think they all knew she wasn't at home already? Or figured she was with CR or JW?
I do like that we are discussing some new options and scenarios-this topic has been way too slow lately!
Thanks Phantom... I hadn't really worked through that afternoon scenario in terms of time... and you're right -- they certainly went from not being a bit worried to reporting her missing in what appears to be record time!
and Darcyline.. I get your question re the timeline for the next morning...
I can only hope the LE has more concrete info than we do at this point...
sure wish we'd hear something about that landfill search -- but it's been eerily silent, hasn't it??
and Darcyline.. I get your question re the timeline for the next morning...
I can only hope the LE has more concrete info than we do at this point...
sure wish we'd hear something about that landfill search -- but it's been eerily silent, hasn't it??
phantomthought
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I think they must have heard about the altercation sometime around when they were wondering about her at 11o'clock.As I said you have HT,posner,group of friends.Then add all of their friends that they are texting all the time I think the subject would have come up.Whether curiosity got the better of them and they looked in her room then not sure.But I think as soon as JW called HT asking about LS and wanting her keys HT was thinking LS was with CR and she was on the phone trying to get a hold of her and she called JR before she ever gave the keys to JW.Would like to ask these other two girls that HT said filed the police report who got them involved so quickly.Also if It was that strange not to hear from her at 11 that you knocked on her door what was it by 2:30 before JW got their.
Agreed. Who is going to keep paying a pricey lawyer if he in fact didn't see her that night?
I would not agree that Bloomington is a "small town." According to the 2010 census, the city hase a population of over 80,000 and overall county is 137,000. My son's high school (one of 3 in town) has almost 1,600 students.
There are various ways to get through and around town, which I am very grateful for since 3 of the main thoroughfares for me to go home from campus is under construction. There needs to be a lot of access to accommodate the IU football and basketball traffic during the academic year.
always curious
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Hmmm....just thinking of more possible scenarios. This will be long so I apologize.
It is possible that NONE of them remember the events of the night due to taking several bars of :Xanax, Adderall, whatever it was....sorry, can't remember the exact drug used. We know through several people on this board who have said that they themselves have taken it, or knew someone who took it, that there is a humongous chance/probability of not remembering events of the night when they woke up in the morning. Also, there are several college students/friends that have stated that she was taking bars that night. Obviously nothing is proven since we have no body to test for substances, but due to the amount of people talking about drug use...and have spelled out the specific drugs that this group uses (Xanax, coke)....it is hard to discount their stories. These students knew the group the best (JR, CR, MB, LS, DR) and were present and witness to the group using these substances at some time during their college experience. And these people seem genuinely concerned for LS, so I don't think that they would throw out info that would damage LS's reputation if they didn't believe their info to be correct. Plus, I haven't heard any reports that they "think" that drugs might have been consumed. When talked to, they all seem to "believe" that drugs were involved. To me, these things make it really hard to discount the drug use....and also that there would be memory loss due to the bars being consumed.
So, that being said...if both of them (CR and JR) took bars that night, maybe they both don't remember what happened. This is just a theory so oviously just a minor possibility. I do believe that CR was taking the (mind erasing) drugs that night and this is why he doesn't remember. And not remembering means taking a lie detector is harmless as he has no information to lie about. So the fact that he took the lie detector puts him nowhere in my book. As far as DNA, if he doens't remember then it's possible that LE could find DNA that proved that they had sexual relations that night....but since LS and CR were hanging out alone that night makes the sexual contact meaningless as well (and they were attracted to each other by friends accounts). They could come back and say that LS was not in a place to consent, but from the reports of CR being punched, needing help home, and not remembering the next day doesn't paint him in a light that looks like he was in a place to take advantage of LS either (at least you can argue that in court to bring some sort of reasonable doubt). So I don't see where CR has anything to worry about. I don't see where there is much evidence that would prove he was guilty of doing anything wrong (not saying he is innocent). And that is given that JR says that he was the last person to see her. And this is given they don't have video evidence that actually shows foul play....and I do believe that if they had that then there would be some sort of arrest already, along with a deal made so lessen a sentence if he gave up where the body was. So unless JR/MB breaks his story, I don't think CR would ever be implicated even if he was there when it happened. He will get away with it....and I hate to say that. Just my theory though so please don't take offense.
That brings us back to the speculation that if JR was also taking bars of :Xanax, Adderall, whatever: that he may not remember the events of the night either. Now, I'm still working on how he put his story together for when HT called him (maybe she is covering for him....don't see why she would have to take a lie detector since she was not there that night....maybe LS's parents believe that she knows more and that's who they've been pleading to fess up with more info). If JR and HT are friends (per her story), could JR have told HT that he didn't remember so she fed him the story or helped him come up with the story that LS left at 4:30am to head home? Lots of people suspect HT of having some info...maybe this is how she is involved. She knows he doesn't remember. Dunno really, just speculation.
Like I said, I'm still working on theory of how his story came about. Maybe he told HT he didn't remember and he started checking his phone records to look for clues, so he would know that a call was made from his phone to DR at 4:15am. And then he contacted CR to see what he knew...who didn't remember anything. So the story that LS was at JR's until 4:30am could have been because he suspected that the call to DR at 4:15am had something to do with LS. And there are lots of reasons she could have called him....to let her into SW or see about her phone (which i don't believe) or get a ride. And there are reasons why JR could have called DR....to come and pick her up, to see if she got home ok (if he knew that she was heading somewhere else for more drugs), or to help with a cover up. So he chose the most innocent explanation in that LS called. It is funny how the story changed from she was looking for her phone (which doesn't make any sense to me) to she was trying to get a ride since DR had a car. Anyways, he puts the timeline that she was there until 4:30am because of this questionable phone call that he now needed to explain. You could say that they put together the story...assumed... that LS left CR to go to JR's because of this (damaging) phone call. That's how the story could have come together if no one remembered anything.
And MB may not know anything either...he could have been asleep...he could have taken a bar...or he could be covering for CR/JR. There is no one to back up any of the boys' stories after the last alley sighting at approximately 2:51am...just their word. His lie detector test is the only thing that makes me sort of question/discount this theory...but if he was asleep/drugged up then he could have assumed that she left CR to go to JR (pieced together from what they knew stated above). If he believed this to be true, then he could have passed the polygraph. Just throwing possible reasons out there.
THIS IS ALL JUST A SPECULATION. But it may be possible that none of the boys remember and this is the story that they pieced together based on what they did know. And since JR supplied the drugs then he has even more reason to lawyer up and not talk....he could not remember what happened to LS but still be in trouble with the law due to the drugs (as opposed to CR whose actions that night could be explained away innocently...especially since he is using the punch as the reason that he doesn't remember). So JR is the one (due to the reports by the students who know the POI's) that supposedly supplied the drugs then as soon as LE gets anywhere close to him...for any reason...he needs to bolt and not speak so he doens't implicate himself). Remember, he still doens't know what happened to LS so he could pass a lie detector as well if asked the right questions (given by his attorney of course). And since he assumed/believed/tried to piece together that LS left after the phone call to DR, then he believes his story and could possibly pass the poly based on that.
Could be just my imagination and is purely speculation. I think just about everyone believes that LS didn't leave 5 North. As always JR could be completely truthful and innocent. But the theories of where she went after leaving 5 North are all hard to imagine given all of the cameras in such close range to her whereabouts. Also, I am not saying that CR/MB were involved. They could be completely truthful/innocent and JR could be the only one involved. If JR didn't remember anything...my speculation could still work that he pieced together his story by contacting CR/MB and by the phone call made from his phone to DR. And HT could still know that JR doesn't really remember and all this without CR/MB being involved. But that always brings us back to whether JR acted alone or whether JR/CR/MB were all involved together. Like I said, with MB and CR's stories I just don't think that there is any way to prove/disprove their guilt. And if JR doesn't remember anything, then he may not have any info discounting their stories either. Which only leaves JR as the only one with all of the heat as we can't prove that she was anywhere else that night.
It kind of makes me think 'poor JR'. That is probably going to make a lot of people mad. I only mean that they could all be involved (if no one remembers) and only he get arrested for it.
Other theory that JR doens't remember due to the drugs he took and that he could be setup by CR/MB....feeding him the story that LS left their place and went to JR's. I don't know how that theory would explain the phone call to DR so I have a hard time putting that one in the believable pile.
Since they don't remember, she could have easily OD'd while in anyone of their presence and they just not know. And if they put her in a dumpster,etc, they wouldn't know what they did with the body either. Shrug. That goes along with the other theories thrown out there by posters that JR/CR/MB don't have any info that will help in finding LS. All of this higher DD's helping dispose of the body and such seems really complicated.
It is possible that NONE of them remember the events of the night due to taking several bars of :Xanax, Adderall, whatever it was....sorry, can't remember the exact drug used. We know through several people on this board who have said that they themselves have taken it, or knew someone who took it, that there is a humongous chance/probability of not remembering events of the night when they woke up in the morning. Also, there are several college students/friends that have stated that she was taking bars that night. Obviously nothing is proven since we have no body to test for substances, but due to the amount of people talking about drug use...and have spelled out the specific drugs that this group uses (Xanax, coke)....it is hard to discount their stories. These students knew the group the best (JR, CR, MB, LS, DR) and were present and witness to the group using these substances at some time during their college experience. And these people seem genuinely concerned for LS, so I don't think that they would throw out info that would damage LS's reputation if they didn't believe their info to be correct. Plus, I haven't heard any reports that they "think" that drugs might have been consumed. When talked to, they all seem to "believe" that drugs were involved. To me, these things make it really hard to discount the drug use....and also that there would be memory loss due to the bars being consumed.
So, that being said...if both of them (CR and JR) took bars that night, maybe they both don't remember what happened. This is just a theory so oviously just a minor possibility. I do believe that CR was taking the (mind erasing) drugs that night and this is why he doesn't remember. And not remembering means taking a lie detector is harmless as he has no information to lie about. So the fact that he took the lie detector puts him nowhere in my book. As far as DNA, if he doens't remember then it's possible that LE could find DNA that proved that they had sexual relations that night....but since LS and CR were hanging out alone that night makes the sexual contact meaningless as well (and they were attracted to each other by friends accounts). They could come back and say that LS was not in a place to consent, but from the reports of CR being punched, needing help home, and not remembering the next day doesn't paint him in a light that looks like he was in a place to take advantage of LS either (at least you can argue that in court to bring some sort of reasonable doubt). So I don't see where CR has anything to worry about. I don't see where there is much evidence that would prove he was guilty of doing anything wrong (not saying he is innocent). And that is given that JR says that he was the last person to see her. And this is given they don't have video evidence that actually shows foul play....and I do believe that if they had that then there would be some sort of arrest already, along with a deal made so lessen a sentence if he gave up where the body was. So unless JR/MB breaks his story, I don't think CR would ever be implicated even if he was there when it happened. He will get away with it....and I hate to say that. Just my theory though so please don't take offense.
That brings us back to the speculation that if JR was also taking bars of :Xanax, Adderall, whatever: that he may not remember the events of the night either. Now, I'm still working on how he put his story together for when HT called him (maybe she is covering for him....don't see why she would have to take a lie detector since she was not there that night....maybe LS's parents believe that she knows more and that's who they've been pleading to fess up with more info). If JR and HT are friends (per her story), could JR have told HT that he didn't remember so she fed him the story or helped him come up with the story that LS left at 4:30am to head home? Lots of people suspect HT of having some info...maybe this is how she is involved. She knows he doesn't remember. Dunno really, just speculation.
Like I said, I'm still working on theory of how his story came about. Maybe he told HT he didn't remember and he started checking his phone records to look for clues, so he would know that a call was made from his phone to DR at 4:15am. And then he contacted CR to see what he knew...who didn't remember anything. So the story that LS was at JR's until 4:30am could have been because he suspected that the call to DR at 4:15am had something to do with LS. And there are lots of reasons she could have called him....to let her into SW or see about her phone (which i don't believe) or get a ride. And there are reasons why JR could have called DR....to come and pick her up, to see if she got home ok (if he knew that she was heading somewhere else for more drugs), or to help with a cover up. So he chose the most innocent explanation in that LS called. It is funny how the story changed from she was looking for her phone (which doesn't make any sense to me) to she was trying to get a ride since DR had a car. Anyways, he puts the timeline that she was there until 4:30am because of this questionable phone call that he now needed to explain. You could say that they put together the story...assumed... that LS left CR to go to JR's because of this (damaging) phone call. That's how the story could have come together if no one remembered anything.
And MB may not know anything either...he could have been asleep...he could have taken a bar...or he could be covering for CR/JR. There is no one to back up any of the boys' stories after the last alley sighting at approximately 2:51am...just their word. His lie detector test is the only thing that makes me sort of question/discount this theory...but if he was asleep/drugged up then he could have assumed that she left CR to go to JR (pieced together from what they knew stated above). If he believed this to be true, then he could have passed the polygraph. Just throwing possible reasons out there.
THIS IS ALL JUST A SPECULATION. But it may be possible that none of the boys remember and this is the story that they pieced together based on what they did know. And since JR supplied the drugs then he has even more reason to lawyer up and not talk....he could not remember what happened to LS but still be in trouble with the law due to the drugs (as opposed to CR whose actions that night could be explained away innocently...especially since he is using the punch as the reason that he doesn't remember). So JR is the one (due to the reports by the students who know the POI's) that supposedly supplied the drugs then as soon as LE gets anywhere close to him...for any reason...he needs to bolt and not speak so he doens't implicate himself). Remember, he still doens't know what happened to LS so he could pass a lie detector as well if asked the right questions (given by his attorney of course). And since he assumed/believed/tried to piece together that LS left after the phone call to DR, then he believes his story and could possibly pass the poly based on that.
Could be just my imagination and is purely speculation. I think just about everyone believes that LS didn't leave 5 North. As always JR could be completely truthful and innocent. But the theories of where she went after leaving 5 North are all hard to imagine given all of the cameras in such close range to her whereabouts. Also, I am not saying that CR/MB were involved. They could be completely truthful/innocent and JR could be the only one involved. If JR didn't remember anything...my speculation could still work that he pieced together his story by contacting CR/MB and by the phone call made from his phone to DR. And HT could still know that JR doesn't really remember and all this without CR/MB being involved. But that always brings us back to whether JR acted alone or whether JR/CR/MB were all involved together. Like I said, with MB and CR's stories I just don't think that there is any way to prove/disprove their guilt. And if JR doesn't remember anything, then he may not have any info discounting their stories either. Which only leaves JR as the only one with all of the heat as we can't prove that she was anywhere else that night.
It kind of makes me think 'poor JR'. That is probably going to make a lot of people mad. I only mean that they could all be involved (if no one remembers) and only he get arrested for it.
Other theory that JR doens't remember due to the drugs he took and that he could be setup by CR/MB....feeding him the story that LS left their place and went to JR's. I don't know how that theory would explain the phone call to DR so I have a hard time putting that one in the believable pile.
Since they don't remember, she could have easily OD'd while in anyone of their presence and they just not know. And if they put her in a dumpster,etc, they wouldn't know what they did with the body either. Shrug. That goes along with the other theories thrown out there by posters that JR/CR/MB don't have any info that will help in finding LS. All of this higher DD's helping dispose of the body and such seems really complicated.
mountainguy777
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Alot of memory loss in this case. Hypnotize the failing brains. Let's set up lie detector tests to varify details. See who objects and see who is willing.
JR's grandmother died last month, July 17th. His Mom's mom. The funeral was held in Delaware. Here is a link to her obit: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/delawareonline/obituary.aspx?n=gloria-frankfurt&pid=152621180
phantomthought
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So we had the story of what was on the cctv footage of Ls at smallwood two weeks ago.The landfill story last week any thought are what the next story on this case will be?I say this because I think you are going to see a slow steady stream of info put out either to keep the story in the news or to keep pressure on some people.
People do get terribly upset when a loved one dies, so I hesitate to criticize. However, that obituary unfortunately is not written in the most tactful and sympathetic way.
Note that the sons-in-law are named in parentheses which can be taken to mean that they are not important; yet properly stating their names would not have taken that much more space. And what are grand-dogs? A proper obituary might discuss the deceaseds affection for a pet dog, but to place them in the category of the bereaved is an insult to the family and close friends.
Please do not reply with any arguments along the line that your dog is a member of your family.
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