IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

What time did Kilroys close that night?

 

[Snapfade]

Not to my knowledge. The old fashioned way was to go to a license branch claiming you were a someone else (an older friend) and you'd get a license/ID with their vitals and your photo. Then in a few days that friend could claim they lost their ID and get a replacement. Then they'd again have a valid/current ID with their photo and you'd still have the 'fake' for clubs.

But that's gotten got harder to do over time so the other thing was just to get a friend, sister, cousin, etc to give you their ID and then they claim they lost their's and immediately get themselves a new one from the BMV. Now you have the old one. You memorize the address, vitals, and hope the photo looks close enough to pass...

Also, sometimes someone who is staying home that night just loanstheir own valid ID for the evening.
As for the fake ID's that you can order and purchase that I assume you are probably thinking of (assuming that 'service' is still available these days) those vitals would all match. Those ID's would use your own photo, address, etc. They'd just insert an incorrect birthdate and fake the features of the state ID they'd be cloning.

But if she had that type of ID then the features and photo should match.

But those are expensive and it's much simpler to just get an older friend's ID. I have always assumed that's what she did. And with this being a missing person case and the nightclub figuring into the equation I can't imagine LE not trying to find out what fake ID she might have on her in case someone would be found using it or be caught with it.... a body found with that ID, etc... Since it could help in finding her (and LE would certainly drive that point home) I'd expect chances are good that someone/friend would alert LE to what ID she was using and a gf, sister, etc would admit to giving LS her ID ... If that was the case.... Then LE could obtain a copy
So IOW... It's very possible LE could've obtained a copy of the fake ID she was known to be using.
Whether that is what happened, I don't know. But if she had a purchased counterfeit fake ID then I'd expect photo and vitals to match and LE said they didn't.
I guess there is the other possibility that she purchased one from someone who sells real ID's that they got from whatever means. But I don't know how much that 'service' really is a factor versus the friend methods I posted above.
EDIT: I just looked up an online counterfeiter and they charge 250.00 for the service. You provide photo and signature and they in turn send you two copies of the fake ID they create. This then adds to the possibility LE could've simply found the duplicate at the apartment if she was using one of these type ID's. Especially if other places also include a duplicate in the basic pkg. The place I found is called ID CHIEF if you want to look it up. But then that would mean the photo and features should've matched...

Good point about a counterfeiters ID would most likely match Laurens vitals. . She probably used a friends or relatives ID that reported the information to L.E. We also know that JR only said she arrived with it. Dont recall him saying she left with it. Couldnt imagine JR holding a fake ID used by a missing girl and LE not hauling him in immeidiatly.

Ive wondered since Kilroys was first cited if they now have some liability issues.
all forr

 

[Ros]

Thanks to everyone who posted about obtaining and using fake IDs. Very informative.

 

[akh]

Question for anyone familiar with controlling relationships: Are the bfs more likely to confront a dude encroaching on their "territory" or would they lurk around to confront their girlfriend after the fact, possibly for hours? It would be my own guess that, in the heat of the moment, confronting both CR & LS and taking LS back with him would be the more "controlling" bf type of thing to do. I just don't see the controlling bf as waiting around, unless, as VeryVeritas has pointed out, the situation has turned from a controlling relationship to premeditated murder.

I've known one person who I would put in that 'controlling, possessive, jealous, unhealthy' relationship category. It was all on the girl with him. I know of no real incidents with any of her male friends except for him often driving past their place to see if she was there and out looking for her. He'd put sticks up to her tires to see if she'd used her car while he was gone. With another girl he'd stop by her workplace to see if she was where she was supposed to be. Those type of things. But AFAIK he always considered it the girl's fault if cheating was suspected. She should've stayed home... she shouldn't have been talking to another guy.... she should find different friends (or simply ignore her friends for him).... she should've stayed at work all day and then straight home (or not work at all)... Yada Yada Yada.

If he collected any type of 'evidence' he'd always wait and confront her alone. So if he saw her car somewhere he'd wait until she got home and ask her what she did that day and see if she mentions being wherever he saw her car.

I don't know of any violence though. But I'm not sure I would have heard of it either.

 

[imkeylime]

I posted on Katelyn's the distance and I think it definitely is worth checking out.
42.1 mi, 1 hour 1 min distance between these towns. Both these girls out walking alone late night. Nothing has turned up looking at these kids I think its worth looking from a different view point that someone may be picking these girls up. Hopefully since Katelyn has been found pretty quick there is some good evidence to glean.

I realize there's probably no link between the two guys who killed Katelyn Wolfe and LS' disappearance. But I read a couple of articles about these guys last night and why they killed KW that were just chilling. I'm not linking here because seriously, I couldn't sleep after reading the confession. Read at your own risk!

I doubt it relates, as they say it was their first "kill." What was scary was how KW was truly in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was a definite crime of opportunity. I still lean toward the 5N POIs. But reading how KW fell into their trap did make me think. I truly hope guys like those two are few and far between.

 

[VeryVeritas]

LE has never once publicly put JW on any "cleared list" that I am aware of. If you have a link that says otherwise, please post it.

Does LE have a SUSPECT?

The only person I've heard that was "cleared" was DR, and I'm not sure why. My point was that if they had evidence he would be on the SUSPECT list and without evidence DEFACTO he would be essentially on the cleared list. Can you prosecute without evidence? Do you have any evidence to implicate JW??

In my book, there is no known evidence on JW.
However, by video, witness accounts, and deduction there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence that implicates CR/MB and JR. Not enough to indict by what we can see publicly (or it would have been done), but in my view there should be enough for a civil case.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Here are some floorplans for 5N: http://currydevelopment.com/5north/5north_floorplans.html

It looks as though all of them have living/kitchen areas on the first floor with bedrooms upstairs.

So, it wouldn't have been that much of a feat for LS to have gone from one apt to the other, if she were only in the downstairs areas.

Also, with the bedrooms upstairs, I would think they would be fairly secluded from what was going on in the living areas. So, theoretically, JR could have had oot guests upstairs who never knew what was going on below them.

Thanks. But there are separate entry doors for each unit such that one must exit to the sidewalk first correct? And so if LS was in this fantastic shape to leave CR/MB's as MB has been attributed with portraying her condition...why would MB escort her to JR's? He could just simply open the door and peek out and see her go in the other door... These stories just dont add up. And now, I've revised my visual of JR's story and it seems even stranger than before! If JR were to watch her leave and walk down the street, why not do so from the ground level door that she would have exited from? Instead he is attributed with saying he watched from that narrow 2nd floor balcony. But he would have opened the door for her... said good bye and she starts walking. he would then race up the stairs to his bedroom to go out on the balcony to watch her walk?? by then she could have already been around the corner! If he really was so damn lazy to not be willing to walk her home 2 blocks, then he could have stood right there at the door and watched her walk down 11th... why run up the stairs to his room to watch? Doesn't make sense. Unless... 1) he was already upstairs and never went downstairs... which means she was upstairs in his bedroom. or... 2) someone else walked her down while he watched the balcony or 3) he let her walk downstairs and let herself out (which he didn't say and which would seem strange) or 4) It's all a big fat lie.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Doesn't Bloomington have a Homicide Detective who can investigate and talk with the POI's? After 2 years it sure seems strange to me that LE still seems to have not questioned the POI's and guests by an investigator. If they did, you would think these ridiculous discrepancies would lead to an arrest. Having a lawyer doesn't mean you can obstruct justice.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Does LE have a SUSPECT?

The only person I've heard that was "cleared" was DR, and I'm not sure why. My point was that if they had evidence he would be on the SUSPECT list and without evidence DEFACTO he would be essentially on the cleared list. Can you prosecute without evidence? Do you have any evidence to implicate JW??

In my book, there is no known evidence on JW.
However, by video, witness accounts, and deduction there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence that implicates CR/MB and JR. Not enough to indict by what we can see publicly (or it would have been done), but in my view there should be enough for a civil case.

They may have cleared him based on his FBI administered polygraph...would they do that? I really wished we knew what questions they asked him and what his answers were that apparently were truthful.

 

[akh]

Doesn't Bloomington have a Homicide Detective who can investigate and talk with the POI's? After 2 years it sure seems strange to me that LE still seems to have not questioned the POI's and guests by an investigator. If they did, you would think these ridiculous discrepancies would lead to an arrest. Having a lawyer doesn't mean you can obstruct justice.

Maybe they have and possibly many of these 'discrepancies' only exist in the rumors and innuendo that gets spread around.... and not actually in the files of the investigators...

 

[akh]

They may have cleared him based on his FBI administered polygraph...would they do that? I really wished we knew what questions they asked him and what his answers were that apparently were truthful.

I don't think LE publicly cleared him or anyone else except for the white truck. Am I wrong? If they did clear DR maybe it was because his activities that night were recorded on security cam (and no opportunity to move without being caught on the cams?).

But more importantly, I don't remember LE clearing anyone. They haven't even named all the PsOI...

 

[sammi89]

I've known one person who I would put in that 'controlling, possessive, jealous, unhealthy' relationship category. It was all on the girl with him. I know of no real incidents with any of her male friends except for him often driving past their place to see if she was there and out looking for her. He'd put sticks up to her tires to see if she'd used her car while he was gone. With another girl he'd stop by her workplace to see if she was where she was supposed to be. Those type of things. But AFAIK he always considered it the girl's fault if cheating was suspected. She should've stayed home... she shouldn't have been talking to another guy.... she should find different friends (or simply ignore her friends for him).... she should've stayed at work all day and then straight home (or not work at all)... Yada Yada Yada.

If he collected any type of 'evidence' he'd always wait and confront her alone. So if he saw her car somewhere he'd wait until she got home and ask her what she did that day and see if she mentions being wherever he saw her car.

I don't know of any violence though. But I'm not sure I would have heard of it either.

I'm not sure if a single case is especially useful to demonstrate what the "typical" case is, but applying these sort of facts to the case at hand:

I would think if JW demonstrated these behaviors, it would have been noticed in the past. I could maybe be convinced that someone might arguably be able to hide those kind of behaviors from everyone if they lived together by themselves, but both JW and LS had roomies and were not residing in the same building. I just do not see it being likely that JW (and LS) would be able to hide that aspect of their relationship for so long.

Disclaimer: One of my majors in undergrad was psychology, so I have some limited knowledge, but in no way am I an expert. Just want to be clear on that first! lol. I've always been taught that abusive relationships (in the controlling sense) traditionally have the controlling partner limiting the contact their partner has with family and friends (or cutting them off completely).

From what has been published in the media, JW seemed to have been on good terms with her friends and family, at least at the time. There has never been any evidence or even hints to the contrary, except for the recent statements from his mother that hint that he may have threatened to call her parents about drug use (which might indicate some controlling aspects!).

Of course, the media isn't all-knowing, but I don't think it's particularly useful to speculate endlessly on things unknown to the public that might be true or might not be true. The statements from JW's mom made me seriously reconsider what is known, but until the friends/Spierers/LE/someone says something more, I'm not convinced that he was the controlling/abusive type.

Personally, I still think whatever happened was not meant to result in a death. Even if JW is involved, I think it is more likely that it was an angry confrontation due to recent problems in their relationship and not because they were in some kind of abusive, controlling relationship. It seems like it has been hinted at/rumored they were having some issues, CR was at least interested, they had hung out the prior week/weekend, LS chose to hang out with CR instead of JW... I can easily see a heated confrontation with LS and JW IF they met up sometime that night. I still think that 5N seems more likely given what is publicly known. Random abduction and JW pose the same issue for me - there seems to be little public knowledge but who was known to be out at the time LS was supposedly out and no confirmation that LS was, in fact, actually out, except for a POI's word.

I still think you have to have someone letting JW know where LS was, or LS actually making the trek to JW's instead of Smallwood for that to occur. I would be more easily convinced that JW was the controlling lurker if there was even one known past incident he had checked up on her and waited to confront her.

Yes, I am aware that maybe this past behavior does exist and is known only to LE. That would change my opinion, as I mentioned, but because it is not known publicly, I don't see the point in discussing it except to acknowledge it as a remote possibility. I just give more weight to things that are known or at least rumored than something that has no known basis in reality (that we, the public, can be aware of at the moment).


my opinion only!

 

[sammi89]

Does LE have a SUSPECT?

The only person I've heard that was "cleared" was DR, and I'm not sure why. My point was that if they had evidence he would be on the SUSPECT list and without evidence DEFACTO he would be essentially on the cleared list. Can you prosecute without evidence? Do you have any evidence to implicate JW??

In my book, there is no known evidence on JW.
However, by video, witness accounts, and deduction there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence that implicates CR/MB and JR. Not enough to indict by what we can see publicly (or it would have been done), but in my view there should be enough for a civil case.

Does anyone know the statute of limitations on a wrongful death suit? Also, there is no body and as far as I know, the Spierers haven't filed to declare LS dead yet. Would the declaration factor into when the statute of limitations starts ticking?

I don't see them filing until the statute of limitations forces them to, honestly. I also don't see a criminal suit until there is a body because it should make an easier case for the prosecutor, as long as they have some kind of idea of what would have motivated each of the POIs and discovering the body is either a) the last nail in the coffin or b) narrows the POI down to one person.

 

[sammi89]

Maybe they have and possibly many of these 'discrepancies' only exist in the rumors and innuendo that gets spread around.... and not actually in the files of the investigators...

Even if true, I'm not sure how this is beneficial to discussing the case. How would you suggest discussing things that are unknown? You've mentioned how you have interpreted their discrepancies, but your interpretation isn't any more factual than someone who takes their discrepancies at face value (at least, until LE clarifies what is accurate).

The thing is, the discrepancies have been published and are known about, hence why they have been discussed at length. The media makes mistakes, sure, but at any point the lawyers for these young men (including JW's) could come out and clarify or deny them. Additionally, for discussion purposes, it really seems like all one can do is simply acknowledge the possibility that something might have been misspoken, second-hand, misheard, published out of context, etc. The problem is, that is probably true of most everything. If the POI felt differently, imo, it is their responsibility to correct them. They have made choices about how to handle the situation and, even if innocent, people are put into uncomfortable situations all the time. It would suck for them that this happens to be so public, but it is what it is.

 

[Ros]

The guy who was watching Kilroy's through a rangefinder (and claimed to know something about LS) wants his guns back. He appears to be someone LE has cleared of involvement in the disappearance of LS.

New story:
http://www.indystar.com/comments/ar...ng-Bloomington-police-s-search-Lauren-Spierer

Original story:
http://www.wthr.com/story/19243465/guns-found-after-man-arrested-near-iu-campus

 

[Tricia]

Please remember we do not allow personal attacks on Websleuths members.

Thank you,
Tricia

 

[akh]

Even if true, I'm not sure how this is beneficial to discussing the case. How would you suggest discussing things that are unknown? You've mentioned how you have interpreted their discrepancies, but your interpretation isn't any more factual than someone who takes their discrepancies at face value (at least, until LE clarifies what is accurate).

It's not like anyone has uncovered some great unknown and found the smoking gun in the case. Talking about these discrepancies is one thing, deciding that they are 'case solved' is another. And a few people get such tunnelvision with some things that I feel somebody has to balance that.

For one thing, should we consider LE are just idiots and haven't seen these discrepancies or don't connect them? Or should we think they've seen them and investigated them?

Many of the discrepancies can easily be described away as bad reporting, noise and hearsay.

By all means discuss them. I have no problem with that but put the proper weight on them and remember most could be explained away as bad reporting, hearsay, misunderstanding, problems with retellings, etc. ...And then remember there are PI's and LE investigating this case and they have the ability we don't: Speaking directly to these eye and ear 'witnesses'. They have the ability not only to get to the bottom of these discrepancies but compare them to the actual and full statements of the PsOI (and in LE's case at least compare to video evidence as well). And that is something we don't have.

I could see how these things could make someone curious or suspicious but these things we've seen so far shouldn't be convincing anyone of anything. Not with the lack of info the public actually has.

IMHO...

 

[bessie]

Please continue at the new thread.

IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community