I'm not convinced that they do or don't have evidence of a death, but re: naming suspects -- They basically did, IMO, by confirming the names of the guys who are "Persons of Interest". LE doesn't use the word 'suspect' anymore before people are arrested.
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31
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I'm not convinced that they do or don't have evidence of a death, but re: naming suspects -- They basically did, IMO, by confirming the names of the guys who are "Persons of Interest". LE doesn't use the word 'suspect' anymore before people are arrested.
Ixchel13
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yes we've discussed this, semantics. I think we know what I'm saying.
No way would they just let them all scatter if they found evidence that someone, specifically Lauren, died there in JRs apt.
When they arrested Brandon Scott Laverne, they had Mickey's bodily fluids,
but no body. Prior to having the fluids, yes, they misled the public about
whether or not they knew who did it.
Is evidence gathered from LE used in the civil case the Spierer's are using to get information?
Based on what I read throughout this thread, I originally thought maybe the death occurred at MB/CR's apt. Does anyone know if they did a search of their apartment?
I guess if they did a search of their place and came up with some evidence of a death, they may not have dismissed MB from the civil case. If they did not search their apt, then I guess it will stay on my personal list of possibilities.
(NOTE: Did you notice all of the "maybe," "may," "guess")
Based on what I read throughout this thread, I originally thought maybe the death occurred at MB/CR's apt. Does anyone know if they did a search of their apartment?
I guess if they did a search of their place and came up with some evidence of a death, they may not have dismissed MB from the civil case. If they did not search their apt, then I guess it will stay on my personal list of possibilities.
(NOTE: Did you notice all of the "maybe," "may," "guess")
If they didn't have enough evidence to arrest them, how could they prevent them from leaving Bloomington? My point is that something like a hit from a cadaver dog would not be enough for an arrest, so if LE did have evidence like this, I'm not sure how/ why we would know, as they haven't shared any evidence. But who knows what they found... I don't think they did a full search of the apts until almost a month after Lauren went missing. When JR left town, they didn't even have the video evidence yet, as far as I can tell from the reporting.
Ixchel13
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BBM I think the answer is in your question.
You compared this to Kristen Smart. But in her case, we know the cadaver dog hit. Because LE told us. A question would be, in how many cases when a cadaver dog has hit, has LE kept that from the public?
If a cadaver dog hit, it wouldn't be just a missing person case, it would be missing, presumed dead.
Our police chief would never have allowed JR to leave the country if Lauren's death scent and/or blood and bodily fluids were in his apt. To hold on to such info and then let POIs leave the country could cost him his job, plus holding on to such info secretly would not help their case one iota.
agree to disagree and:loveyou:
It would be unusual for LE to share evidence or cooperate at all with the civil case while their own investigation is ongoing and the case is open.
From what I'm getting from rereading the civil lawsuit is that the Spierer's believe that JR et al let Lauren leave in a state where she was unable to function and thus something happened to her - should we broaden our scope to others who may be involved after she "walked" away from JRs? I wonder who is shown on those cameras even if Lauren isn't? They could be involved, no? Maybe we can even expand our coverage of where cameras are located, not just the presumed way/s she may have taken, maybe branch out a little in each direction? Btown where r u?! 
I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the lawsuit is based on the known statements that the POI have given, which does not necessarily reflect what the Spierers believe happened. JMO
I would also love to know what cars and people LE has on video. I remember them stating that they were reviewing hundreds of hours worth of surveillance video, so I really hope that means they have more evidence than we know about.
I don't know the answer to that question, but it's definitely not unusual for LE to keep their evidence quiet until an arrest is made. My impression is that that is more the rule than the exception.
Ixchel13
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here's a weird thought, about the phone. My pet theory that someone had Lauren's phone. What if she somehow GPS'd her phone? Maybe that's what LE isn't revealing--I've never believed the just 2 phone calls scenario.
If she used gps to find her phone, and it gave Kilroy's address, then she was headed to Kilroy's. If it gave someone else's address--Zoe's for example, and JR knew his out of town guest was there, maybe that's what he and Zoe, are lying about, AND the bar manager. If they lied about the time, and it was
4:38 instead of 3:38, that would make sense.
A lot of other things would make sense--why Zoe would be such a staunch defender of JR. Why her key card was found in a different place, as someone else said, they could have been tossed out the window. Why she struck her head and no one helped her. With CR claiming amnesia, he can't refute that story of her falling and hitting her head. We have a video of her falling down with CR, but we have no video of her striking her head on the 10th and College steps or any timeline to back up the second altercation at 10th and C on the way to 5N. If anything, the timeline we do have of her emerging from the alley belies any extra time for that . Perhaps she rang the bell but no one answered and they went on.
Zoe, and/or JR's out of town houseguest, could be blackmailing JR or it could be Zoe blackmailing both JR and houseguest about drugs because she somehow played a role in Lauren's falling down and hitting her head and maybe even that fall was fatal. The video BTown so tantalizingly talks about
is right by Kilroy's and could be Zoe bringing the phone to Kilroy's.
Because it was all about, and has always been about, Lauren trying to get her phone, the reason she left SW and went to 5N after the altercation, IMO.
It is pretty obvious after the altercation, CR getting the bejeezus knocked out of him, Lauren's condition, that the romance, if ever, was definitely on hold.
In summary, it makes more sense that she met her demise after leaving JR's yet only less than 1/2 block from there, when she stopped at 10th and College to confront Zoe about having her phone, a phone Zoe could have picked up if she was also watching the game with the people down the hall
from Lauren and HT's apt. The last call JR made, supposedly, was to a guy who was also watching that game there with Lauren. IF this was to his out of town houseguest, that means he wasn't asleep in the spare bedroom when Lauren was trying to find her phone with JR.
Just where this mysterious guy was when the last call was made, or if there was a GPS applied to find this out where he was when JR called, would really make a difference.
If Lauren was just ok enough to function and begin a confrontation to get her phone away, she would not win that confrontation. I have never, ever believed that the confrontation at 10th and College happened the way the supposed witnesses say it did, nor at the time they say it did--and also, remember that Zoe never gives a reason why Lauren would be trying to get in her apt at such a time, or even speculates why.
The combo of drug charges and needing to make sure his friend<s> don't
get charged with murder could have made him obstruct justice just enough by saying he has no idea what could have happened after she rounded that corner
even while knowing where she was headed.
If she used gps to find her phone, and it gave Kilroy's address, then she was headed to Kilroy's. If it gave someone else's address--Zoe's for example, and JR knew his out of town guest was there, maybe that's what he and Zoe, are lying about, AND the bar manager. If they lied about the time, and it was
4:38 instead of 3:38, that would make sense.
A lot of other things would make sense--why Zoe would be such a staunch defender of JR. Why her key card was found in a different place, as someone else said, they could have been tossed out the window. Why she struck her head and no one helped her. With CR claiming amnesia, he can't refute that story of her falling and hitting her head. We have a video of her falling down with CR, but we have no video of her striking her head on the 10th and College steps or any timeline to back up the second altercation at 10th and C on the way to 5N. If anything, the timeline we do have of her emerging from the alley belies any extra time for that . Perhaps she rang the bell but no one answered and they went on.
Zoe, and/or JR's out of town houseguest, could be blackmailing JR or it could be Zoe blackmailing both JR and houseguest about drugs because she somehow played a role in Lauren's falling down and hitting her head and maybe even that fall was fatal. The video BTown so tantalizingly talks about
is right by Kilroy's and could be Zoe bringing the phone to Kilroy's.
Because it was all about, and has always been about, Lauren trying to get her phone, the reason she left SW and went to 5N after the altercation, IMO.
It is pretty obvious after the altercation, CR getting the bejeezus knocked out of him, Lauren's condition, that the romance, if ever, was definitely on hold.
In summary, it makes more sense that she met her demise after leaving JR's yet only less than 1/2 block from there, when she stopped at 10th and College to confront Zoe about having her phone, a phone Zoe could have picked up if she was also watching the game with the people down the hall
from Lauren and HT's apt. The last call JR made, supposedly, was to a guy who was also watching that game there with Lauren. IF this was to his out of town houseguest, that means he wasn't asleep in the spare bedroom when Lauren was trying to find her phone with JR.
Just where this mysterious guy was when the last call was made, or if there was a GPS applied to find this out where he was when JR called, would really make a difference.
If Lauren was just ok enough to function and begin a confrontation to get her phone away, she would not win that confrontation. I have never, ever believed that the confrontation at 10th and College happened the way the supposed witnesses say it did, nor at the time they say it did--and also, remember that Zoe never gives a reason why Lauren would be trying to get in her apt at such a time, or even speculates why.
The combo of drug charges and needing to make sure his friend<s> don't
get charged with murder could have made him obstruct justice just enough by saying he has no idea what could have happened after she rounded that corner
even while knowing where she was headed.
I respect your opinion, but no part of me can even slightly believe her cellphone is that relevant in the fact she went missing, and continues to be missing 2.5 years later with nobody talking.
I don't think it's unusual ZC defended JR or CR, or whoever it was she defended. Let's remember, she is friends with them, and sees them in a different light than the public. She knew them before all of this. By NO MEANS is that me defending those boys. If one of my close friends went missing, I would make excuse after excuse justifying reasons why another one of my friends wasn't responsible. Nobody wants to believe their buddy could be capable of anything like that.
Furthermore, all we really know about ZC from the night of 6/2/11- 6/3/11 is that CR and LS knocked on her door at like 3 something in the morning, correct? Who answers their door at 3 in the morning? In my mind there is nothing unusual about the fact nobody answered the door. It isn't unusual for people to be sleeping at 3AM. I don't even hear my alarm clock going off the first few times it does when it's right next to my bed on loud volume, much less someone knocking on my door when I'm in a sound sleep.
Finally, I can't even fathom that if LS was in the condition that she was in, she would even realize her phone was missing, much less care about its location. If she was falling face down on concrete and couldn't use her hands to hit the ground first, HOW could she possibly be able to be concerned about retrieving her phone from ZC?
Ixchel13
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BBM So, I guess people would rather speculate that Lauren was knocking on her door to get drugs, as people have said, or to get help from an OD--kind of ridiculous, wouldn't she have called 911? Zoe had something she wanted. I really don't think that something was drugs. CR's amnesia has something to do with whatever and whenever something happened at 10th and College.
Like I said, when someone claims amnesia, they can't refute what people say they did. If a witness claims to have seen him with Lauren and she hit her head and he said this and they said that, and it was at this time, he can't say it didn't happen. Maybe he believes he had some sort of amnesia because he can't remember that happening on the way to 5N. (because it happened on her way back). Maybe that's why he is suddenly saying he didn't have amnesia. Maybe it will come out that he doesn't remember that incident because it didn't happen.
About the phone, again, remember that the closing employees didn't notice she left her phone, the employees the next day noticed the phone because Jesse kept calling it. They have never said where the phone was found and when it was left, but that an employee answered it because it was ringing.
If the closing waiter didn't find the phone right after she left it, then it could have been returned at any time up until right before it was answered, even
during the next morning after Kilroy's opened.
She last used it right before she left her apt at 12:15 and didn't use it again before she left Kilroys after 2:30. Just don't believe she had her phone at Kilroys. She would have used it. People say she left it there as if it is an absolute but it isn't. If she didn't leave it there, whomever brought it back knows what happened to her and that's major.
It appears some dudes need to be sequestered and deposed. Then, perhaps we can clear some things up. For a tracking dog seems to have lost Lauren's scent at a location where she was under the care of one CR. And, at least 2 cadaver dogs had a hit by his dumpster.
I'm wondering how these dogs all got it wrong and some Jammone came along.
Past time for these boys to speak up.
I'm wondering how these dogs all got it wrong and some Jammone came along.
Past time for these boys to speak up.
I'm not speculating that they knocked on ZC's door to get drugs.
On the next block, she sat down on a staircase and fell backward, slamming her head on the concrete step. The thud was loud enough for a young woman to hear it and ask whether she was all right.
According to the woman, Rossman replied, Shes OK, Ill take care of it.
As Rossman and Spierer continued up the street, she fell hard and didnt raise her hands to cushion the blow as her face hit the ground. A few steps later, she fell again.
They then ducked into an apartment complex, called 10th & College, and knocked on the door of four female students who were at the party earlier. No one answered, and they left. At this point, Rossman had Spierer slung across his back and was carrying her.
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/news02/306030045
Per that article with accounts from the PI, LS was NOT in a good condition when going to ZC's....leading me to believe it was CR who had the idea to go there. LS couldn't even walk at this point, so again, I can't believe she would even know her phone was missing. I don't know why they went there, but it certainly seems like it was on CR's accord. Perhaps to dump her off on someones couch who was nearby, since she clearly couldn't walk? If LS was in such horrible condition it doesn't really make sense he'd want MORE drugs either. Yes, we all think "why wouldn't he call 911?"- because that's what most people think they would do, and it's definitely what people SHOULD do. LS probably wasn't the first girl CR saw in bad condition after partying. It's the same story- every weekend people get belligerent and black out- and right before the black out they don't look so good.... but time and time again you see them sleep it off and wake up in the morning and it's just another "how crazy was last night?!?" story. I can see how someone in college would think "they just need to sleep it off" or whatever- been there.
Again, I hope nobody thinks I'm defending any of the POI's- I think it's beyond disgusting that 2.5 years later nobody but DR has attempted to help the Spierer's.
And I agree with another poster, that if her phone was thrown over the balcony, wouldn't it be on camera? And LE traced the phones whereabouts, since they said it was last used at Smallwood. If it had left Kilroy's and then came back, that would be really crucial in discovering what happened to LS, and we likely would have heard about it, as that would spark a lot more tips than "Have you seen LS specifically". JMO
Ixchel13
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Another affluent family, the McCanns, were not arrested, we were shown lots of footage of cadaver dogs hitting all over the place, in their car, in their villa,
garden, etc. But even though the McCanns consider it a missing person case,
LE considers her most likely dead. And I do think it is because of the dogs.
The only cadaver hit we know concerning Lauren was by a psychic who came uninvited and we know how you feel about psychics, AbbeyR:drumroll:
Ixchel13
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I'm not speculating that they knocked on ZC's door to get drugs.
On the next block, she sat down on a staircase and fell backward, slamming her head on the concrete step. The thud was loud enough for a young woman to hear it and ask whether she was all right.
According to the woman, Rossman replied, Shes OK, Ill take care of it.
As Rossman and Spierer continued up the street, she fell hard and didnt raise her hands to cushion the blow as her face hit the ground. A few steps later, she fell again.
They then ducked into an apartment complex, called 10th & College, and knocked on the door of four female students who were at the party earlier. No one answered, and they left. At this point, Rossman had Spierer slung across his back and was carrying her.
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/news02/306030045
Per that article with accounts from the PI, LS was NOT in a good condition when going to ZC's....leading me to believe it was CR who had the idea to go there. LS couldn't even walk at this point, so again, I can't believe she would even know her phone was missing. I don't know why they went there, but it certainly seems like it was on CR's accord. Perhaps to dump her off on someones couch who was nearby, since she clearly couldn't walk? If LS was in such horrible condition it doesn't really make sense he'd want MORE drugs either. Yes, we all think "why wouldn't he call 911?"- because that's what most people think they would do, and it's definitely what people SHOULD do. LS probably wasn't the first girl CR saw in bad condition after partying. It's the same story- every weekend people get belligerent and black out- and right before the black out they don't look so good.... but time and time again you see them sleep it off and wake up in the morning and it's just another "how crazy was last night?!?" story. I can see how someone in college would think "they just need to sleep it off" or whatever- been there.
Again, I hope nobody thinks I'm defending any of the POI's- I think it's beyond disgusting that 2.5 years later nobody but DR has attempted to help the Spierer's.
And I agree with another poster, that if her phone was thrown over the balcony, wouldn't it be on camera? And LE traced the phones whereabouts, since they said it was last used at Smallwood. If it had left Kilroy's and then came back, that would be really crucial in discovering what happened to LS, and we likely would have heard about it, as that would spark a lot more tips than "Have you seen LS specifically". JMO
Ok, let's pretend we are a new detective opening up a cold case: the case of
Lauren Spierer. Let's start at the beginning and go over every detail. It started with the boyfriend picking up her phone at a bar
and reporting her missing. Before I interview him (BF always key suspect) I want to go interview the employee who called him after he kept calling it.
I ask the employee where they found the phone. They saw it outside in the sand near a table. I ask which table. It's a table near the fence. I find out the afternoon staff found the phone just because they heard it ring, it was not sitting by the cash register after being found by the night staff. I realize that
someone involved in her disappearance could have easily thrown the phone over the fence and let it sit there until discovered.
If Kilroy's had stated that the night employee found Lauren's phone right where she was sitting, brought it up to the register for claiming later, and then the person on duty the next day heard it ringing from where it had been put away, then I would believe she left it there. But not using her phone for
over 2 hours? Her mother never says she left her phone at Kilroy's, she has
said that Lauren last used her phone from SW at 12:15. But she never says,
"Lauren last used her phone.....and then left it at Kilroy's."
Has it ever been confirmed as to the location of her cell phone and shoes at Kilroy's - both inside, both outside, shoes outside, phone inside?
From Mrs. Spierer's Twitter account (link in my signature below):
"Our sweet, sweet Lauren-You are desperately missed. We will never stop searching for you." and
"Think of someone you love more than life. Now think how you'd feel if that person disappeared. Heartbroken."
I think all of here agree to not stop our search for what happened to Lauren and we are also heartbroken that she has not been found. Continued love to the Spierer family.
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IX - this is one where LE should have a pretty good idea or there is no LE in Bloomington. There had to be people who were at Kilroys who would know what table CR and LS were sitting at. LE would have phone records of everyone involved except maybe the throw away type unless it called one of the phones of interest. Remember it wasn't just the phone it was also her shoes. At this point it's pretty much accepted as fact that the Phone and the Shoes were left at Kilroy's. Cameras, witnesses, phone data, etc... could be used to prove otherwise and so far hasn't. At the same time, if JR or CR had LS's phone why bother returning it, along with her shoes to Kilroy's? That would be a hugely unnecessary risk! LS is missing so why not let the phone and shoes go missing too? Similarly JR admits to seeing LS's Keycard and Fake ID, 2 very interesting items when EVERYTHING else she had except maybe her jewelry was found somewhere. It strikes me as odd that those 2 things were seen by JR after her possibly fatal falls losing everything else in her hands. Those 2 items you would expect to be in her wallet/purse thing which was dropped. Now if you were going to the ridiculous risk of returning her phone and shoes why not drop off the Keycard and fake ID too? LS was seen on camera barefoot as she entered and exited SW, so that IS consistent with her leaving the shoes at Kilroys. So there is nothing public that would show her phone to be anywhere other than where it was found. IF there is any shread of evidence that shows her phone was somewhere else, used by someone else, etc... then LE is keeping that to themselves. I am far more interested in how JR knew that LS had the Fake ID and Keycard for SW. Because in my view someone took those items from her (like CR) or she had them stashed in her bra or pocket and someone removed them. I see no reason why she would pull them out to show JR.
They would not have been in her hands, because anything in her hands was dropped and left behind.
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