IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[carlarae341]

This is quite plausible and thanks for sharing. IMO JR and/or MB would need to be highly motivated to encourage CR to leave her in the alley. Indication of an OD or unconscious Lauren would have been enough to do that. CR could have been doing this when MB says he was in bed. If CR was in fact in bed, MB and JR could have done it for him.

I think I am still trying to build this theory in my mind. Picture Lauren in bad shape when Cory drags her in after Kilroys. He is confronted by Zach Oakes, JW's friend. This confrontation could have scared him or pissed him off. He then takes Lauren to Mike Beth's and Jay R's too. They all decide that Lauren is way too wasted and maybe they assume Zach and friends may come back after them. They realize that they are ultimately responsible for whatever Lauren has in her system. They do not want to be responsible for whatever is in her system. They decide to put her in the alley making it look like she passed out there. Her belongings are nearby as well. They dump her there in a bad state. What happened to Lauren after they left her is a mystery so far.

 

[masootz]

I think I am still trying to build this theory in my mind. Picture Lauren in bad shape when Cory drags her in after Kilroys. He is confronted by Zach Oakes, JW's friend. This confrontation could have scared him or pissed him off. He then takes Lauren to Mike Beth's and Jay R's too. They all decide that Lauren is way too wasted and maybe they assume Zach and friends may come back after them. They realize that they are ultimately responsible for whatever Lauren has in her system. They do not want to be responsible for whatever is in her system. They decide to put her in the alley making it look like she passed out there. Her belongings are nearby as well. They dump her there in a bad state. What happened to Lauren after they left her is a mystery so far.

i like this theory better than the "they knew she was dead" theories. i don't think any of them were intelligent enough, or in a sober enough state, to determine whether she was dead unless they intentionally killed her (which i doubt). being children of privilege i think they'd be the first in line to call 911 and say "this chick got really drunk and now something's wrong". they'd be off the hook. drugs or not, i've said all along anything is better than being charged with homicide/murder.

long story short, i don't see a scenario in which they thought she died of an od and simply left her there. i do see a scenario in which they thought she was bad off and left her there, figuring she'd sober up and make her way home.

 

[carlarae341]

The alley scenario might explain some of the statements made like MB was putting CR to bed......or CR claiming amnesia......Or JR watching Lauren walk away at 4:30ish.......Time frame coverup statements? Lies?
Did they fear that ZO knew Lauren had been with them and had witnessed Lauren's condition while with CR? Would he report to JW? Did they place her in that alley alive but to make sure she wasnt with them any longer? Did they fear JW and his friends finding her with them if they didnt put her somewhere else? Were they coherent enough to realize how bad her condition really was when they placed her in that alley only passed out?
Did they for some reason return to the alley to find her deceased during this time frame? Does this explain the late night phone calls? Did they call someone for help to transport her away? Does this explain the time lapse between CR and and Lauren returning from Kilroys and JR's bogus
sighting of her at 4:30ish? They found her deceased? Panic mode? Stupid alibis?
Who helped to remove her? Who did they have to solicit for assistance?? DR with the late night call to him? AB with a white truck? Did DB transport her that morning? After all he left early. Was he really at Runcible Spoon as he tweeted? Did cameras show him there? Witnesses/staff saw him there? Shouldn't have been hard to verify.
And you need to ask why? Drugs. That's why. They feared "the man" more than they regarded Lauren Spierer. Several are involved and several feared "the man"....still do.

 

[Jupiter812]

i like this theory better than the "they knew she was dead" theories. i don't think any of them were intelligent enough, or in a sober enough state, to determine whether she was dead unless they intentionally killed her (which i doubt). being children of privilege i think they'd be the first in line to call 911 and say "this chick got really drunk and now something's wrong". they'd be off the hook. drugs or not, i've said all along anything is better than being charged with homicide/murder.

long story short, i don't see a scenario in which they thought she died of an od and simply left her there. i do see a scenario in which they thought she was bad off and left her there, figuring she'd sober up and make her way home.

Yeah, riiiiight.

Dos po' folks and lo class tho, they dunno rong from rite. Dey dont think bout no one but demselfs.

 

[AbbeyR]

I could be wrong, but I read Masootz's post as tying the 'privilege' part to being let of the hook (for drugs/ alcohol)?. I.e. having good lawyers, a first time offense, promising college students, etc., are all conditions that would likely play a role in a situation where drugs were involved but they had called for help.

One important thing that has to be factored in though in this case is that it wouldn't necessarily be fear of a drug charge but a homicide charge, if she overdosed and they had provided/ shared drugs with her. (And, there could be other reasons aside from drugs that could have played a factor, like if she was injured or fear of a sexual assault charge. At the time that Lauren disappeared, there was a big case at IU of another student who had taken an intoxicated student home and sexually assaulted her, who had just been sentenced to significant time in jail.)

In any case, on calling 911: It's also my feeling that normal people would call for help, especially people who likely had some first aid training. But then again, there have been many posts throughout the years here of examples where people (of all walks of life) didn't do the logical/ right/ obvious thing of calling for help when intoxicated/ panicked. And in some of those cases, it's easy to see that it doesn't take a sober person or criminal mastermind to hide someone or get away with a crime.

 

[VeryVeritas]

i like this theory better than the "they knew she was dead" theories. i don't think any of them were intelligent enough, or in a sober enough state, to determine whether she was dead unless they intentionally killed her (which i doubt). being children of privilege i think they'd be the first in line to call 911 and say "this chick got really drunk and now something's wrong". they'd be off the hook. drugs or not, i've said all along anything is better than being charged with homicide/murder.

long story short, i don't see a scenario in which they thought she died of an od and simply left her there. i do see a scenario in which they thought she was bad off and left her there, figuring she'd sober up and make her way home.

Wow interesting how now her witnessed and recorded head injuries and unconscious fall face down, as well as JR's statements about her injuries to further confirm. OD, Drunk, heart issue, head injuries, rape and murder all possible and in any combination. The only thing is that the likelyhood of her walking out of 5N is very slim giving the events leading up to the movement from SW to 5N. Pretending she was sober, not injured is not consistent with known facts.

 

[holly18]

Wow interesting how now her witnessed and recorded head injuries and unconscious fall face down, as well as JR's statements about her injuries to further confirm. OD, Drunk, heart issue, head injuries, rape and murder all possible and in any combination. The only thing is that the likelyhood of her walking out of 5N is very slim giving the events leading up to the movement from SW to 5N. Pretending she was sober, not injured is not consistent with known facts.

I totally agree with this. IMO for them to stick to this "lauren walked out of 5N and JR watched her walk to the corner and she was fine" there has to be something they're covering up. I think its totally possible that what they're covering up is that they left a very incapacitated LS in the alley, and she was either taken by (someone? I still find the possibility of her being abducted by a non-POI slim) the time they got back, or she had passed away before they got back. No matter what, IMO, there has to be a reason why JR/MB/CR try so hard to make the lauren walking out of 5N and being able to walk scenario fit.

IMO, the 5N boys have something to hide. That could be that they're responsible for her disappearance/ possible death or it could be that they acted irresponsibly that night (ie leaving her in the alley) or it could be that someone they are obligated to protect (ie a dealer or someone else with power over them) and didn't think that their statements would incriminate them the way they have. Bottom line, I think that JR's story has to be false, and it has to be false for a reason.

 

[Jupiter812]

I totally agree with this. IMO for them to stick to this "lauren walked out of 5N and JR watched her walk to the corner and she was fine" there has to be something they're covering up. I think its totally possible that what they're covering up is that they left a very incapacitated LS in the alley, and she was either taken by (someone? I still find the possibility of her being abducted by a non-POI slim) the time they got back, or she had passed away before they got back. No matter what, IMO, there has to be a reason why JR/MB/CR try so hard to make the lauren walking out of 5N and being able to walk scenario fit.

IMO, the 5N boys have something to hide. That could be that they're responsible for her disappearance/ possible death or it could be that they acted irresponsibly that night (ie leaving her in the alley) or it could be that someone they are obligated to protect (ie a dealer or someone else with power over them) and didn't think that their statements would incriminate them the way they have. Bottom line, I think that JR's story has to be false, and it has to be false for a reason.

Totally. They did not simply leave her somewhere thinking she was "bad off" and would "sober up and make her way home."

They left her because they played a role in her condition and were unwilling to take responsibility for it by doing the right thing: calling 911.

 

[carlarae341]

Exactly. They fear their dealer.

 

[AbbeyR]

I think if these guys had someone else to point the finger at (a dealer or anyone else), they would in a second.

 

[Jacobite]

i like this theory better than the "they knew she was dead" theories. i don't think any of them were intelligent enough, or in a sober enough state, to determine whether she was dead unless they intentionally killed her (which i doubt). being children of privilege i think they'd be the first in line to call 911 and say "this chick got really drunk and now something's wrong". they'd be off the hook. drugs or not, i've said all along anything is better than being charged with homicide/murder.

long story short, i don't see a scenario in which they thought she died of an od and simply left her there. i do see a scenario in which they thought she was bad off and left her there, figuring she'd sober up and make her way home.

Actually, this makes a lot of sense. It fits in very well with the very first theory and rumor that I heard concerning Lauren Spierer.

Maybe we have been making this case much more colorful and complex than it ever was?
Maybe it was a fraternity prank that went terribly wrong?

 

[Jacobite]

Totally. They did not simply leave her somewhere thinking she was "bad off" and would "sober up and make her way home."

They left her because they played a role in her condition and were unwilling to take responsibility for it by doing the right thing: calling 911.

If these guys took Lauren in to the woods in bad shape, dumped her, and she died that would be a much greater crime than hiding a body. She may have staggered and crawled around for some time.
Lost.

Remember the very beginning, Lauren's mom out calling Lauren's name, expecting an answer. That makes sense now.

 

[sammi89]

Actually, this makes a lot of sense. It fits in very well with the very first theory and rumor that I heard concerning Lauren Spierer.

Maybe we have been making this case much more colorful and complex than it ever was?
Maybe it was a fraternity prank that went terribly wrong?

I was part of Greek life at my school and I find these comments really offensive sometimes. Most Greek men and women are just like any other student.

There's bad apples in every organization. It is not exclusive to Greek life and/or Greek members.

I have never heard of such a prank being condoned by any Greek organization and that sort of behavior usually leads to severe consequences. I believe the fraternity some of the POIs supposedly belonged to was actually disbanded because of poor behavior, correct? If so, I wouldn't consider them a true fraternity. However, I believe there are rumors they still functioned like one or something? Maybe there is something to be said of a group of men meeting regularly with no oversight from the university or the Greek community and perhaps the mentality/close bonds that might form from that? Maybe not? It could be that I just have trouble keeping up with who exactly amongst the POIs belonged to this group to begin with lol.

If it was any sort of prank I think it was a prank done by a few young adult men, independent of their status as fraternity men or otherwise.


I do agree that things are probably much simpler than we normally expect. May I ask what the first rumor was that you heard regarding LS?

 

[sammi89]

I totally agree with this. IMO for them to stick to this "lauren walked out of 5N and JR watched her walk to the corner and she was fine" there has to be something they're covering up. I think its totally possible that what they're covering up is that they left a very incapacitated LS in the alley, and she was either taken by (someone? I still find the possibility of her being abducted by a non-POI slim) the time they got back, or she had passed away before they got back. No matter what, IMO, there has to be a reason why JR/MB/CR try so hard to make the lauren walking out of 5N and being able to walk scenario fit.

IMO, the 5N boys have something to hide. That could be that they're responsible for her disappearance/ possible death or it could be that they acted irresponsibly that night (ie leaving her in the alley) or it could be that someone they are obligated to protect (ie a dealer or someone else with power over them) and didn't think that their statements would incriminate them the way they have. Bottom line, I think that JR's story has to be false, and it has to be false for a reason.

Just adding to the possibilities with this scenario of leaving her in the alley: maybe they just assumed someone else would stumble upon her and call 911/get her help.

 

[sammi89]

If these guys took Lauren in to the woods in bad shape, dumped her, and she died that would be a much greater crime than hiding a body. She may have staggered and crawled around for some time.
Lost.

Remember the very beginning, Lauren's mom out calling Lauren's name, expecting an answer. That makes sense now.

I think if this happened, they would have to be absolutely evil to the core. If she was in bad shape and they knew it, why take her to the woods and leave her helpless?

Wouldn't it just be easier to call 911, take her home, or even leave her in the alley/kick her out to fend for herself/make her someone else's responsibility?

Or are you saying that is the prank you think may have happened?

 

[Jacobite]

That theory would put us back to square one became that's what was believed on day one.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I totally agree with this. IMO for them to stick to this "lauren walked out of 5N and JR watched her walk to the corner and she was fine" there has to be something they're covering up. I think its totally possible that what they're covering up is that they left a very incapacitated LS in the alley, and she was either taken by (someone? I still find the possibility of her being abducted by a non-POI slim) the time they got back, or she had passed away before they got back. No matter what, IMO, there has to be a reason why JR/MB/CR try so hard to make the lauren walking out of 5N and being able to walk scenario fit.

IMO, the 5N boys have something to hide. That could be that they're responsible for her disappearance/ possible death or it could be that they acted irresponsibly that night (ie leaving her in the alley) or it could be that someone they are obligated to protect (ie a dealer or someone else with power over them) and didn't think that their statements would incriminate them the way they have. Bottom line, I think that JR's story has to be false, and it has to be false for a reason.

There are many more facets to why the 5N stories do not add up.

For example:

1) It's human nature to go back home the way you came, people are creatures of habit. While JR miraculously saw LS's SW keycard and fake ID (things he should not have seen) and her black eyes (when they should not have yet been black unless she was critically injured or deceased) he probably didn't realize the route that LS commonly took to 5N through the alley... instead just assuming she would take the 11th to N. College route.
That's how lies trip people up. It's inconsistent that LS would go home that way, possible, but not likely.
2) JR said he spent considerable time testing to see if LS was able to walk on her own. This was part of his elaborate story. Thing is, that the walk was only 2 blocks and in the same amount of time, he could have just walked her home.
3)Some speculate how incapacitated CR/MB/JR all were that evening... only thing is that video and eyewitness accounts (except for MB's story) show that LS was far worse off than anyone, so not believable that she would be walking home alone. Quite absurd it is...
JR was quite alert he made astute observations in his detailed but defective story. MB claimed to be studying and not partying, only having a beer...
CR was capable of propping up and carrying LS and in all likelyhood carried her at least part way across that gravel lot towards 5N. LS is the one with the black eyes (per JR), head slams (per cameras and witnesses), and lost every loose belonging she had (except 2 cards which indicates they were not in her hands)

There is more, but really... how much more does it take?

 

[doubtingthomas]

There are many more facets to why the 5N stories do not add up.

For example:

1) It's human nature to go back home the way you came, people are creatures of habit. While JR miraculously saw LS's SW keycard and fake ID (things he should not have seen) and her black eyes (when they should not have yet been black unless she was critically injured or deceased) he probably didn't realize the route that LS commonly took to 5N through the alley... instead just assuming she would take the 11th to N. College route.
That's how lies trip people up. It's inconsistent that LS would go home that way, possible, but not likely.
2) JR said he spent considerable time testing to see if LS was able to walk on her own. This was part of his elaborate story. Thing is, that the walk was only 2 blocks and in the same amount of time, he could have just walked her home.
3)Some speculate how incapacitated CR/MB/JR all were that evening... only thing is that video and eyewitness accounts (except for MB's story) show that LS was far worse off than anyone, so not believable that she would be walking home alone. Quite absurd it is...
JR was quite alert he made astute observations in his detailed but defective story. MB claimed to be studying and not partying, only having a beer...
CR was capable of propping up and carrying LS and in all likelyhood carried her at least part way across that gravel lot towards 5N. LS is the one with the black eyes (per JR), head slams (per cameras and witnesses), and lost every loose belonging she had (except 2 cards which indicates they were not in her hands)

There is more, but really... how much more does it take?

You have identified many facets of their stories not adding up. I am sure there are many more as you state. My question is, what is the motivation for hiding or disposing of LS. What is it that happened that night that would make someone want to make her go away? Sex, drugs, money, anger, jealousy? I think if we can identify the reason we could narrow it down to the person, unless it was an abduction (which I don't believe) Looking for theories.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Totally. They did not simply leave her somewhere thinking she was "bad off" and would "sober up and make her way home."

They left her because they played a role in her condition and were unwilling to take responsibility for it by doing the right thing: calling 911.

There are several reasons why this would not make sense.

1) It would obviously trace back to them anyway!

2) They could have still called 911 and left her outside.
If you wanted her to be found why put her in an alley?

3) Such an irresponsible act could result in her rape, death, etc...
Where they would be linked anyway! Remember JR and LS go way back with family ties and being at the same summer camp. Is it more reasonable think that JR was that much of a sociopath that he would abandon her and then make up a story that she was at his place and walked out?


However, there is a way I could see this happening temporarily and it fits with the way I see it going down.
CR carries LS over to the place where her wallet/purse and keys are found. Something happened there. Maybe he was exhausted, maybe he tried to get her on her feet, but they paused there for some reason. Then he makes it over to the dumpster area behind 5N. Here he leaves LS, maybe still alive, maybe dying, maybe dead. The timeline is really important. This is happening right around 3:00am. But MB's call to JR is not for another 30 minutes. It is this time gap that for a long time gave some credibility to the idea that LS actually had made it to CR/MB's. But that's the only thing that does! In this 1/2 hr, CR makes it back to his apt. And by 3:30 MB is calling JR. It seems doubtful that MB saw LS because he did not describe her accurately in any way. There are no doors out the back of 5N, so not easy for MB to run out and check. Perhaps there is a window he could see her from, laying by the dumpster? Alive or dead there was some drama at CR/MB's until MB finally called JR. When I play out the scenarios of CR either trying to revive LS, or realizing that she is dead, it takes time either way.
I come to think that he would be down in that gravel lot with her for at least 10 to 15 minutes. So that gives him roughly another 15 to 20 minutes in his apt. Now by the time JR is called CR and MB have to be considering the possibilities (call 911? Call JR? etc...) After JR is called there may have been a face to face discussion lasting another few minutes. So by this time if JR goes down to check on LS (alone or with a house guest) there are 3 possibilities: 1) she is gone... so then why implicate yourself in an elaborate story saying you saw things like keycard / fake id and black eyes? So that doesn't wash with me. 2) She is still there alive... so at this point wouldn't it be risky to just go back home and leave her there? So back to the other decisions... take her to the hospital, call 911 or take her to your apt? 3) She is there and is stone cold dead... now for the same reasons leaving her there alive are risky, obviously leaving her there dead is just as bad if not worse. What is most likely? Consider then 3:30 MB calls JR and takes a few minutes filling him in a bit... then they meet in person for a few minutes... then JR goes down to check on her, that takes a few minutes. We are approaching 4:00 here... but by 4:15 calls are being made to DR and ?? by JR(was that landline or cell?, because if mobile phone then he may have been down there in the lot, even a wireless landline might reach there)

So my point is that if she were left there it would have most likely been by CR and then later when JR became involved she was taken away.

 

[VeryVeritas]

You have identified many facets of their stories not adding up. I am sure there are many more as you state. My question is, what is the motivation for hiding or disposing of LS. What is it that happened that night that would make someone want to make her go away? Sex, drugs, money, anger, jealousy? I think if we can identify the reason we could narrow it down to the person, unless it was an abduction (which I don't believe) Looking for theories.

As we have discussed before the motive may not have been what actually killed her but rather their (POI's) perception of what may have killed her and certainly how it may have looked / played out with authorities. More likely a decision in a panicked situation than a rational discourse.

1) We know she was drinking (seems unlikely to me that she drank enough to have fatal alcohol poisoning) but was that enough?
2) The "black eyes" that JR attests to seeing (he didn't know there was witnesses and camera evidence of falls)
3) It's not plausible to me that money would be a factor. She could have paid a drug debt... so that's out for me.
4) Sex - possible... date rape and even accidental death would not look good esp with black eyes.
5) Drugs - very likely involved, a lot harder to avoid culpability.
6) Jealously? No evidence of that... depending on whom you have in mind there doesn't seem to be an opportunity for that which fits within the known facts and MB/JR stories (and even ferreting out the lies and conflicts in their stories, still doesn't fit).

A friend that has been to your house partying DIES pretty much at your doorstep and has black eyes. Motive? Likely Primary motive is CYA!