IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[Ixchel13]

I don't know what would have been lost or gained in releasing video footage in this case. There are those who feel strongly it should have been released. Apparently, Lauren was very unsteady in some of the footage,and CR did not look so disabled and was helping her a lot to the point of carrying her at times. That it came down to whether she left JR's place the way he said she did, however, became the crux of the situation. No evidence to the contrary could be found.

I have always felt that if surveillance videos from a larger radius from where Lauren was last pinpointed were immediately obtained and viewed, LE would have had some more leads. That a car left either the corner where JR said he last saw her or even several blocks from that point might have been caught had a video dragent bee obtained as tightly as possible around the area. It took civilians, not LE to do this in the Leiby Kletzky case, and a civiliian who found the boy getting into the car with the perp. So much attention was given to search groups, massive searches, and very little to other ways of tracking who was doing what at that time in the morning IMO. There simply was not that much activity at 4 AM and so it would not have been so difficult to get a picture of it.

Also so much was put on those three students who admitted outright that they saw Lauren at the last reported times, that I think other alternatives were not investigates as thoroughly as they could have been. They lawyered up and stayed put. LE did not have any reason to give out their names, they had no recourse with them. Their silence will have served them well in the civil suit that the Spierers have levied against them. They did not admit to doing much of anything. TO prove they gave Lauren anything more than their company, their advice and offer to stay around, and her way--and she is an adult, is going to be tough. That was likely why their attorneys advised them to say nothing. I would not be surprised if the source of some of the contraband Lauren likely had that night and early morning was from them, but there is no proof.

Le hardly got any stories from the POIs, THey were lawyered up as are such folks of privilege. Morgan Harrington's friends who were in the arena while she was outside of it, lawyered up too, and they were never suspected in the least of killing her. There is a pattern here that is unmistable in the cases of Lauren, Morgan and Hannah. Partying with friends from college, all of privilege, taking enough substance to become disoriented, leaving the group with friends not accompanying though we are talking young women, under the influence, alone when dark, and then disappearing. We know what happened to Hannah and Morgan. Lauren has not yet been found, and I think most people knowing about this case, think the same happened to her. The difference is that there is not a clean proven break from the college friends in Lauren's case, only someone's word that has neither been disproven or proven.

BBM,UBM There is also a pattern of predators looking for these women. I agree that people should stick together when out clubbing. Men and Women. In this environment, we have the wolves among the lambs, no doubt. But, women who go out and get lost from their friends
or have one two many drinks are most likely than not to be of average means. Mixed in with those women are a some wealthy girls. It has nothing to do with money in general, although in this particular case, yes.
In Lauren's case either all the crazy things that went on led up to her walking out the door and being abducted. In this case, all of the interactions had to happen in order for the
event to happen at the precise moment; yet no one person is singularly to blame, unless one is inclined to blame them, and that's ok too IMO. OR all of the running around all night by everyone led up to some final altercation or event that caused Lauren to die. In that case, within these interactions are the ones that caused Lauren to die and so it is important to look at all of them and vet them through a scenario, JMO.

 

[Ixchel13]

LE has pretty good tape of CR and Lauren making their way home and the times seem to jive. Further investigation of the camera footage in later hours did not match other witness accounts. Just couldn't have happened when and where the witnesses said it did and just didn't work with the time line of what LE knows happened.

Whatever the journey, it all comes down to the last person who admits he was left with Lauren until she left him. That's the crux of the matter. Is what HE says happened when the truth? Can't tell. No witnesses, no cameras. Yes, it is possible and just looking through this whole website we can easily see that though strager danger is over emphasized, disoriented, lone young women at night are prey . They are just out there for the pickings by some predator. If JR told the truth, then she was picked up by someone, went with someone in a black hole area as far as surveillance cameras go, and disappeared from there. And there's no telling where the "ride" took here. Without a trace.

BBM yes this could have happened, but I give our LE enough credit that if they really thought that was the case, the general public would have been warned of this particular danger much more emphatically. I give them enough credit when they say they don't believe the stories they are being told by POIs and friends, that their stories don't match up, and that this pertains directly to Lauren's disappearance and not just rich kids being rich kids.
If we go with that, that their stories don't match up, well then, this is just the place to speculate which parts of their stories, and witness stories, don't match up. Other posters may refute those theories. Other posters may ignore their refutes, and so on and so forth and that's part and parcel of what makes this site so special.:loveyou:

p.s. when I say particular danger, I don't mean the basic fact that a woman alone at night is easy prey isn't true, far from it. Just would like to say, a woman doesn't have to be drunk, disoriented, or dressed provocatively to be a victim of a killer! Just looking through this website, you can also see that. IOW, in this particular case, IMO, LE doesn't think there was a stranger. Of course they could be wrong! but IMO, doubtful.

 

[chipmunk]

Anyone know if it's true that LE found the person driving the white truck (car with open back), interviewed him and ruled him out? I read this in a 2013 news update but can't recall where.

If not true technology must be available to enlarge the writing on the vehicle to see what is says -without blurring it much. Any experts know?

 

[bessie]

Anyone know if it's true that LE found the person driving the white truck (car with open back), interviewed him and ruled him out? I read this in a 2013 news update but can't recall where.

If not true technology must be available to enlarge the writing on the vehicle to see what is says -without blurring it much. Any experts know?

Yes, it's true.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6737482

 

[akh]

I wonder how, when CR does appear on tape, his condition looks compared to what the bar manager says about the person with LS that she saw? Does CR appear sober and steady on his feet in the videos that do exist? Or does he appear to be a person not long from a crash himself?

 

[doubtingthomas]

If my memory is correct I remember the bar witness describing the person they saw with LS as wearing a polo shirt. If this is true and they saw a video of CR and LS entering SW and in line at Sports, they should be able to tell by the clothes if they were the same person.

 

[imkeylime]

Thanks for the welcome! I was very amazed at the speed at which the HG case is unfolding. I have read as many threads on Lauren as I can to catch up on (still plodding). Its just so sad that perhaps LE has focused so hard on the boys from that night that they may have possibly lost a trail for a random, unrelated event happening to her. She was so vulnerable if she did indeed attempt to go home. I would think that after all of this time they would have gotten something of enough value to charge the friend/friends if they were involved. Jmo.

Part of the problem with the whole random abduction scenario, IMO, is that the POIs haven't given enough info to totally rule them out, even if there's also not enough info to totally rule them in. They most likely have been instructed to do so, as they are 1) the last person whose apartment LS visited, 2) the last person LS partied with, 3) LS' boyfriend, and 4) a guy who probably connects 1) and 2). In addition, one or more may have supplied something that helped get LS in a really messed up state that night. And to be fair, we shouldn't rule out DR and DB, either, though the former seems to have cooperated, and we know little about the latter.

I do think that all possible options need to be exhausted in this case. Maybe the POIs have told more than we know, which would be wonderful. For example, did CR see anyone at Sports who might have been watching him and LS? Did he sense anyone following them? FWIW, I do hope that the construction sites were closely examined. While it seems that the white truck has been ruled out, the thought (not mine) that she might have been found in a construction area by someone starting early is interesting, IMO.

The construction areas have always given me the creeps in terms of this case.

 

[jamicat]

Part of the problem with the whole random abduction scenario, IMO, is that the POIs haven't given enough info to totally rule them out, even if there's also not enough info to totally rule them in. They most likely have been instructed to do so, as they are 1) the last person whose apartment LS visited, 2) the last person LS partied with, 3) LS' boyfriend, and 4) a guy who probably connects 1) and 2). In addition, one or more may have supplied something that helped get LS in a really messed up state that night. And to be fair, we shouldn't rule out DR and DB, either, though the former seems to have cooperated, and we know little about the latter.

I do think that all possible options need to be exhausted in this case. Maybe the POIs have told more than we know, which would be wonderful. For example, did CR see anyone at Sports who might have been watching him and LS? Did he sense anyone following them? FWIW, I do hope that the construction sites were closely examined. While it seems that the white truck has been ruled out, the thought (not mine) that she might have been found in a construction area by someone starting early is interesting, IMO.

The construction areas have always given me the creeps in terms of this case.

What could the POIs tell LE to possibly help find Lauren if they are indeed telling the truth? CR says he has no memory of the night. Maybe he's not telling the truth, maybe he is. My guess is that his memory is impaired for the eving, but I think the time and distance from Sports to Lauren's apt, to his apt to JR's apt to Lauren leaving that at 4AM is not making it likely that someone was stalking her all of that time. Also, he and Lauren were on video cameras for a portion of their trek from Lauren's place to his.

IF you assume that they are telling the truth but refusing to answer questions about things like drug/alcohol intake and providing them which would have prettey much guaranteed them losing the type of civil suit levied on them that the Spierers have right now, how can they possibly prove they are innocent?

IMO, if their parents had an iota of doubt that they were innocent, and I'm sure they were tested thoroughly through private polygraphs in this regard, those guys would have been sent to Timbuktu or anywhere on the other side of the world instead of left in Bloomington where any word here, or anything happening to show further involvement might have happened. They had the money to do so. That they refused to comment on substance use and abuse makes it more difficult for the current lawsuit against them to prevail I don't think there is any proof that either CR or JR gave Lauren any contraband. With CR going straight to bed and Lauren continuing to JR's place, I don't see how he could be blamed for what happened afterwards. CR was out of it due to punch, he says, that is on video tape, and he did go straightaway home when that happened. Lauren did not have to go with him. She was in her own apartment building right near her apartment when that happened and she chose to go with him instead. That she was in bad shape too, was the case, but then so was CR. To argue who was in worse shape from video footage, still doesn't cut it as to whether he was able to insist she stay behind--he was hit and hurt. Vomited as soon as he got home. MB and JR had nothing to do with those events, and when they dealt with Lauren it came down to doing as she asked. MB took her to JR's and JR substantiates that putting himself at risk as he was then left alone with her and the last person as such.

All of them could have been on some drugs or drinks of varying kinds IMO, and Bo DIetz has said the usage there was so rampant that it would just be another night/morning there. Nothing new. That Lauren walked out on her own at 4AM and JR didn't have the wherewithal, energy, or anything to accompany her or call a cabe seems to me to right in line of the time and the activities earlier that morning.

Frankly, CR and JR might easily have supplied Lauren with some drugs and drinks that added to her condition. But there isn't any proof of it. What possible good is it to them to say so now? It would just mean having civil damages to pay the Spierers. And frankly, they were only one of many who gave Lauren goodies of that sort. The cases now in VA of MH and Hannah Brown all involve their classmates giving them drugs/drink and letting them go out affected and alone in the dark. No different with Lauren.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Yes, it's true.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6737482

BUT, LE said the same thing about Isreal Keyes vehicle that was seen on security camera footage in the parking lot of the Samantha Koenig abduction. I am personally not willing to completely take the white truck out of the picture for this reason. It's not uncommon for LE to give this kind of false information to the public when they feel there is a good reason to do so. However, since there is zero information about the owner or driver, there is really nothing more to add so I guess my point is actually irrelevant anyway. Just helping when I can, ha!

As far the writing on the side of the vehicle, I'm a trained photographer and I have all the advanced editing software. I have examined the photos at length and I so far have not been able to discern very much at all from the writing. I did however revisit the photo recently and I did discover within the reflection of the windows what appears to be a man standing in a doorway of the building on the opposite side of the street. I don't want to lead anyone to believe that it's some sort of crystal clear mirror image because it isn't, but it did look to me to be the form of a man. Even if I'm correct, I highly doubt that an ID could be gained from it though which I why I never took it any further.

 

[Ixchel13]

[From Jamicat]
"IF you assume that they are telling the truth but refusing to answer questions about things like drug/alcohol intake and providing them which would have prettey much guaranteed them losing the type of civil suit levied on them that the Spierers have right now, how can they possibly prove they are innocent?

IMO, if their parents had an iota of doubt that they were innocent, and I'm sure they were tested thoroughly through private polygraphs in this regard, those guys would have been sent to Timbuktu or anywhere on the other side of the world instead of left in Bloomington where any word here, or anything happening to show further involvement might have happened. They had the money to do so. That they refused to comment on substance use and abuse makes it more difficult for the current lawsuit against them to prevail I don't think there is any proof that either CR or JR gave Lauren any contraband. With CR going straight to bed and Lauren continuing to JR's place, I don't see how he could be blamed for what happened afterwards. CR was out of it due to punch, he says, that is on video tape, and he did go straightaway home when that happened. Lauren did not have to go with him. She was in her own apartment building right near her apartment when that happened and she chose to go with him instead. That she was in bad shape too, was the case, but then so was CR. To argue who was in worse shape from video footage, still doesn't cut it as to whether he was able to insist she stay behind--he was hit and hurt. Vomited as soon as he got home. MB and JR had nothing to do with those events, and when they dealt with Lauren it came down to doing as she asked. MB took her to JR's and JR substantiates that putting himself at risk as he was then left alone with her and the last person as such.

All of them could have been on some drugs or drinks of varying kinds IMO, and Bo DIetz has said the usage there was so rampant that it would just be another night/morning there. Nothing new. That Lauren walked out on her own at 4AM and JR didn't have the wherewithal, energy, or anything to accompany her or call a cabe seems to me to right in line of the time and the activities earlier that morning.

Frankly, CR and JR might easily have supplied Lauren with some drugs and drinks that added to her condition. But there isn't any proof of it. What possible good is it to them to say so now? It would just mean having civil damages to pay the Spierers. And frankly, they were only one of many who gave Lauren goodies of that sort. The cases now in VA of MH and Hannah Brown all involve their classmates giving them drugs/drink and letting them go out affected and alone in the dark. No different with Lauren.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE=jamicat;11120008]What could the POIs tell LE to possibly help find Lauren if they are indeed telling the truth? CR says he has no memory of the night. Maybe he's not telling the truth, maybe he is. My guess is that his memory is impaired for the eving, but I think the time and distance from Sports to Lauren's apt, to his apt to JR's apt to Lauren leaving that at 4AM is not making it likely that someone was stalking her all of that time. Also, he and Lauren were on video cameras for a portion of their trek from Lauren's place to his.
From Ixchel13:
BBM and colorized by me and magnified by me. This whole thread. practically, is about whether the POIs are telling the truth! Lots of people think not, including LE and most of MSM. most definitely up for discussion on this type of thread.
You might think no different with Lauren, but it is the minute thing someone does committing a crime that gets them caught. and during the aftermath, and as time goes on. Rest assured that someone will slip up, because the reasons they get separated from their friends are many and varied and involve a tiered amount of people, sooner or later, someone is going to need to talk and lots of people will be waiting, hoping, and praying for that moment.

 

[AbbeyR]

... With CR going straight to bed and Lauren continuing to JR's place, I don't see how he could be blamed for what happened afterwards. CR was out of it due to punch, he says, that is on video tape, and he did go straightaway home when that happened. Lauren did not have to go with him. She was in her own apartment building right near her apartment when that happened and she chose to go with him instead. That she was in bad shape too, was the case, but then so was CR. To argue who was in worse shape from video footage, still doesn't cut it as to whether he was able to insist she stay behind--he was hit and hurt. Vomited as soon as he got home. MB and JR had nothing to do with those events, and when they dealt with Lauren it came down to doing as she asked. MB took her to JR's and JR substantiates that putting himself at risk as he was then left alone with her and the last person as such.

All of them could have been on some drugs or drinks of varying kinds IMO, and Bo DIetz has said the usage there was so rampant that it would just be another night/morning there. Nothing new. That Lauren walked out on her own at 4AM and JR didn't have the wherewithal, energy, or anything to accompany her or call a cabe seems to me to right in line of the time and the activities earlier that morning.

Frankly, CR and JR might easily have supplied Lauren with some drugs and drinks that added to her condition. But there isn't any proof of it. What possible good is it to them to say so now? It would just mean having civil damages to pay the Spierers. And frankly, they were only one of many who gave Lauren goodies of that sort. The cases now in VA of MH and Hannah Brown all involve their classmates giving them drugs/drink and letting them go out affected and alone in the dark. No different with Lauren.

(Snipped and BBM)

It's hard to say lauren chose to go with Corey at that point, when the reports at Smallwood say she was intoxicated to the point of being non-responsive. She couldn't even walk on her own, fell on the ground in Smallwood, and Corey lifted her up and carried, pushed and dragged her home, according to several witnesses.

Corey may have been intoxicated too, but he managed to carry Lauren home, and have a coherent enough exchange with several people where he took responsibility for Lauren, saying she was okay, and he had things under control.

What seems in line with the evening is that Lauren couldn't get anywhere on her own, which is the main (but not only) thing that gets in the way of a random abduction theory, IMO.

There is, according to the lawsuit, evidence that the guys at 5 N gave Lauren alcohol. Corey bought her drinks and 'helped' her drink them at the bar. We don't know if there is any proof of the guys at 5 N (or anyone else) giving Lauren drugs. There may or may not be... This is another one of the main issues in this case as in the case of sexual assault or overdose, the person(s) responsible for giving her drugs would have faced serious charges and had a motive to conceal what happened and her location.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

and have a coherent enough exchange with several people where he took responsibility for Lauren, saying she was okay, and he had things under control. BBM

GOOD POINT. How far would this go in the lawsuit if there is a witness that will state he CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY. If you do so, would you not actually then be HELD RESPONSIBLE if that person is harmed and you failed to turn over responsibility of their care when the opportunity to do so was available to you?

 

[jamicat]

CR was likely very much under the influence too even as he did say what he did and bring Lauren along. We'll see how the law suit goes. The thing is, all of the guys finished up at IU and no said anything more about in that college setting which was very much pro Lauren. If anything were to come out, it would have likely happened then.

I think that the focus on the POIs hampered the investigation. Had there more attention given to the possibility of someone picking up Lauren even as the investigation came up with a big zero in implicating the POIs, there might have been some evidence found. We know some young people who were at IU at the time of the disappearance and in time many of them felt that the POIs integrated right back in, there was no undercurren of suspicion among them and that a lot focus had been given to them for a year after what happened. That she disappeared so completely is truly a mystery, and if we only knew who was out driving around the area at that time in the mornings, there could be some other thread to follow. This has truly devastated the Spierers who I think are venting more on the fact that those men did not care for their beloved daughter as one would think someone so vulnerable should have been treated. than in looking at other options. I so would like to see Lauren found, as her being missing is truly an open painful sore to many. Seeing other cases like hers, where the vicitm becomes prey to those out there looking just for that vulnerable girl, I think she fell into the clutches of someone just like that who is still out there and perhaps still seeking such victims.

 

[Jacobite]

http://fox59.com/2014/10/22/human-remains-found-on-vacant-lot-at-bloomington-mobile-home-park/

 

[ninij9]

http://fox59.com/2014/10/22/human-remains-found-on-vacant-lot-at-bloomington-mobile-home-park/

Remains appear to be 2 to 3 months old. Can't be her.[emoji17]

 

[akh]

and have a coherent enough exchange with several people where he took responsibility for Lauren, saying she was okay, and he had things under control. BBM

GOOD POINT. How far would this go in the lawsuit if there is a witness that will state he CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY. If you do so, would you not actually then be HELD RESPONSIBLE if that person is harmed and you failed to turn over responsibility of their care when the opportunity to do so was available to you?

FYI and others- The lawsuit is all but finished. The judge tossed it. Barring a reinstatement via appeal, there is no civil lawsuit now unless I missed a tentacle of it surviving pretrial motions (and I don't think I did).

 

[akh]

This whole thread. practically, is about whether the POIs are telling the truth! Lots of people think not, including LE and most of MSM. most definitely up for discussion on this type of thread.

I'm not sure we can or cannot say that about LE. They've been silent to the point that I don't think we can know anything with certainty about what they think at this point.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

FYI and others- The lawsuit is all but finished. The judge tossed it. Barring a reinstatement via appeal, there is no civil lawsuit now unless I missed a tentacle of it surviving pretrial motions (and I don't think I did).

I had to take some time and I haven't caught up yet, thanks for the heads up.

 

[Wondering Aloud]

Right Turn, This was new to me. If this was discussed earlier on here, I don't recall and too lazy today to go searching...so apologies if it has. Also, as always, I will probably ramble. Oh, how I wish I could be as concise as AKH or AbbeyR.

I have been re-reading MSM and have now read twice that JW's parents arrived before Lauren's. Hmmm. This rubbed me the wrong way. I, of course, already have a (negative, negative, negative) preconceived opinion of JW's parents based on their statement and FB posts. So I started thinking again about JW. Got the call from Kilroy's, retrieved phone, couldn't locate Lauren, and then got the keys from HT all the way on campus, during her class, to check her room....WHAT? That seems extreme. What did HT tell him? She certainly would have known Lauren's likely location, right? She was admittedly with her until 12:30 a.m. that morning. Wouldn't she have covered for Lauren....she stayed with so and so...etc. So, did he need to get something from her room (ala Ixchel13)? This new (to me) information is driving me crazy(er). I understand friends raising the alarm the next afternoon, after they presumably spoke with the 5N guys. I don't understand JW's actions and certainly not his parents arriving almost immediately.
Literally, the only reason I don't buy the 5N guys stories in their entirety is because the the Spierer's lawsuit. I feel they must have some secret knowledge about their guilt and that is why they are pursuing them, and if that is the case....then I say sue them till the cows come home...bury them for the rest of their lives. But as a semi recent IU grad, and a female, I find their account of events plausible, if not likely. And while I can understand those who can't or don't understand the reported events of the evening, I would just say that you are either too far removed from college life to remember or your college reality was way different that this groups....or mine.

 

[Ixchel13]

Right Turn, This was new to me. If this was discussed earlier on here, I don't recall and too lazy today to go searching...so apologies if it has. Also, as always, I will probably ramble. Oh, how I wish I could be as concise as AKH or AbbeyR.

I have been re-reading MSM and have now read twice that JW's parents arrived before Lauren's. Hmmm. This rubbed me the wrong way. I, of course, already have a (negative, negative, negative) preconceived opinion of JW's parents based on their statement and FB posts. So I started thinking again about JW. Got the call from Kilroy's, retrieved phone, couldn't locate Lauren, and then got the keys from HT all the way on campus, during her class, to check her room....WHAT? That seems extreme. What did HT tell him? She certainly would have known Lauren's likely location, right? She was admittedly with her until 12:30 a.m. that morning. Wouldn't she have covered for Lauren....she stayed with so and so...etc. So, did he need to get something from her room (ala Ixchel13)? This new (to me) information is driving me crazy(er). I understand friends raising the alarm the next afternoon, after they presumably spoke with the 5N guys. I don't understand JW's actions and certainly not his parents arriving almost immediately.
Literally, the only reason I don't buy the 5N guys stories in their entirety is because the the Spierer's lawsuit. I feel they must have some secret knowledge about their guilt and that is why they are pursuing them, and if that is the case....then I say sue them till the cows come home...bury them for the rest of their lives. But as a semi recent IU grad, and a female, I find their account of events plausible, if not likely. And while I can understand those who can't or don't understand the reported events of the evening, I would just say that you are either too far removed from college life to remember or your college reality was way different that this groups....or mine.

very good post. yes their stories are plausable and almost guaranteed to raise reasonable doubt. And, they could be true.
During the first year of Lauren's disappearance, on these threads I was sure it was a random abduction. Mainly because I know the area, but also because their stories
do seem like what is going on right now.
IMO, our LE did look into random abduction. There's been no indication that they've
dropped the ball.
They are careful not to accuse the POIs outright, but yet will not "acquit" them in public opinion. They keep JW as a POI, even though friends vouched for him. As time goes by, some of us have even released the other 7 POIs from any guilt, in our minds,
yet LE has not released them.
And the camera footage. They say they are viewing hours of footage and they only see Lauren in those few minutes of footage they talk about. But maybe the mystery
lies in who they see in the rest of the footage! This is how, IMO, they know people are lying! When we say the cameras picked up very little, that is more of a guess. The entire footage of the altercation has been sequestered as evidence, or we would have
viewed it. For example, someone who alibied JW as being at home watching the game could have been on that tape. Not saying they were. This is just conjecture. Say LE then went to this person and confronted them about impeding an investigation, so the guy admits it and says he wasn't really home but he knows Jesse was because he texted him during the altercation. So now, they have JW on camera somewhere, maybe even just walking down a street, and the roomie getting caught lying. Maybe instead of just by being the bf, they have other info.
Instead of shoddy policework, it could be the piles and piles and piles of $$$$$ that's
impeding the investigation. These POIs aren't just a little rich. And MB is probably the wealthiest, btw, apropos of possibly nothing.