GUILTY India - Mukesh Singh & 5 others for fatal gang rape on Delhi bus, 2012

[BrownRice]

India is one country I would NEVER visit! My sister visits every few years for spiritual reasons. Sheesh give me a good strict Muslim country like Iran any day (where they will arrest men that dare touch or harrass women).

Here is an interesting video on "women only" trains in India, the were started to help curb the horrendous sexual harrassment and groping that has gone on forever. Notice the reporter implies it is really just because women have joined the work force and started riding the trains more (meaning the men aren't at fault).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhSazXN48qc

Ya, in Iran women have lots of rights. They must have their husband's permission to travel, they are forced into marriages, can be stoned to death. No thank you.

 

[Sonya610]

Ya, in Iran women have lots of rights. They must have their husband's permission to travel, they are forced into marriages, can be stoned to death. No thank you.

Not sure where y'all are getting your facts about Iran. In Iran women drive, vote, work, control their own money and can travel at will. No male escorts are ever required. Iranian women are also the most highly educated in the middle east with more women in the universities than men.

I visited Iran in large part because women DO have equal rights and a traveling lone female will be safe and treated with respect. The men are very polite and respectful, they don't leer at women in a rude manner and they don't dare touch or harrass women in public for any reason on fear of arrest. As far as stoning that is not a gender based punishment.

India is the exact polar opposite with a staggering amount of sexual harassment, public groping, rapes, forced prostitution, bride burning, child sex slaves, culling infant females, etc.... The Iranian government would be lopping off the heads of any scoundrels that did such a thing (or more likely hanging them with a crane).

 

[BrownRice]

Not sure where y'all are getting your facts about Iran. In Iran women drive, vote, work, control their own money and can travel at will. No male escorts are ever required. Iranian women are also the most highly educated in the middle east with more women in the universities than men.

I visited Iran in large part because women DO have equal rights and a traveling lone female will be safe and treated with respect. The men are very polite and respectful, they don't leer at women in a rude manner and they don't dare touch or harrass women in public for any reason on fear of arrest. As far as stoning that is not a gender based punishment.

India is the exact polar opposite with a staggering amount of sexual harassment, public groping, rapes, forced prostitution, bride burning, child sex slaves, culling infant females, etc.... The Iranian government would be lopping off the heads of any scoundrels that did such a thing (or more likely hanging them with a crane).

I'll take your word for it since I've never been there. However, I had a coworker who grew up in Iran (female) and she fled to the US under some type of political asylum and she told me of her struggles over there and the vast disparities of how men and women were treated.

If you google women's rights in Iran, the articles that come up support what she told me.

 

[Sonya610]

she told me of her struggles over there and the vast disparities of how men and women were treated.

There are women in the US that will tell you about vast disparities in the workplace and how women aren't treated equally or paid equally.

Iran is definitely very conservative and the government makes sure it stays that way. Having said that any bias towards women is cultural and not a matter of government policy. As a lone traveling female I was granted special priviledges several times, from having my bags waived through customs without a search, to getting a personal assistant in the airport that helped me exchange cash and get a cab, to being waived through metal detectors even though I set them off. I seriously doubt that they would have done any of those things for a lone male.

People see what they want to see. Many will look at the women in the full length black chadors as meek lambs that are forced into submissiveness. In fact only about 15% of Iranian women wear the chador, it is typically a strong statement regarding their political affiliation and identifies them as being ultra-conservative pro-government supporters from very conservative families. The chador in Iran is not a sign of submissiveness, if anything it is a sign that one had best watch their step and be on their best behavior.

Back to the subject of India -- that is one place I would NEVER want to visit, their horrid attitude towards women is one of the main reasons. Culturally they have virtually no respect towards women at all and their sexual behavior is atrocious.

 

[Ausgirl]

Rape happens everywhere. It is not a political problem.

No disrespect intended, but this thread is about the horrific rape (now murder) of a young woman, and all this cultural soapboxing is irksome.

May she rest in peace, poor girl.

 

[Sonya610]

Rape happens everywhere. It is not a political problem.

It IS a political problem! That is why they have the riot police out and are seeing mass protests and shutting down parts of the city!

That is why they flew her to a foreign hospital when it looked like she was dying, the same hospital one of their presidents used, because this has become a MAJOR political problem! Can't imagine why there would be mass protests in countries where the government enforces laws and harshly prosecutes rapes, they are protesting because the government DOESN'T!

They are protesting because they are blaming the GOVERNMENT for an ongoing problem!

 

[Sonya610]

Any pictures of the perps? Links?

 

[BrownRice]

It IS a political problem! That is why they have the riot police out and are seeing mass protests and shutting down parts of the city!

That is why they flew her to a foreign hospital when it looked like she was dying, the same hospital one of their presidents used, because this has become a MAJOR political problem! Can't imagine why there would be mass protests in countries where the government enforces laws and harshly prosecutes rapes, they are protesting because the government DOESN'T!

They are protesting because they are blaming the GOVERNMENT for an ongoing problem!

Thanks for clarifying the hospital. I couldn't understand why she was hospitalized in Singapore.

 

[Ausgirl]

Mass protest against rape in Iran

Mass protest against rape in America

Mass protests against rape in Japan

.... it's not political - and I say this in response your extremely generalised comments about India.

If it must be political, then it is at its core the politics of disempowerment**. Protests against rape, like rape itself, happen everywhere.

And she was shipped to Singapore because the state of the art multi-organ transplant facility there offered the victim a bit more hope after all her abdominal surgery and the heart failure in India. It IS conceivable that people were simply trying to save her life.

** ETA: I originally said 'gender' but hey, men and boys are raped, too.

 

[jjenny]

Thanks for clarifying the hospital. I couldn't understand why she was hospitalized in Singapore.

I presume because she needed organ transplants. That hospital is known because of it's multi-organ transplant procedures.

 

[Sonya610]

I presume because she needed organ transplants. That hospital is known because of it's multi-organ transplant procedures.

So everyone in India that requires an organ transplant is shipped to a foreign hospital? Okay then, that makes sense. India may have one of the highest TB rates in the world but apparently they are great when it comes to shipping off needy citizens and providing organ transplants in foreign hospitals.

They sent her to Singapore! And folks say it isn't about politics? Come on now. Singapore is INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE and VERY high tech! Does anyone really believe this wasn't political? Sadly they removed all of her intestines and waited until she was on deaths door before they sent her to brilliant doctors and a first rate hospital.

 

[bourne]

Mass protest against rape in Iran

Mass protest against rape in America

Mass protests against rape in Japan

.... it's not political - and I say this in response your extremely generalised comments about India.

If it must be political, then it is at its core the politics of disempowerment**. Protests against rape, like rape itself, happen everywhere.

And she was shipped to Singapore because the state of the art multi-organ transplant facility there offered the victim a bit more hope after all her abdominal surgery and the heart failure in India. It IS conceivable that people were simply trying to save her life.

** ETA: I originally said 'gender' but hey, men and boys are raped, too.

Thanks for the links. But the mass protests in Japan actually refers to Japanese residents protesting the rape of Japanese women by U.S. military men stationed in Japan, and the mass protests in England is actually about protesting rape in the New England (Massachusetts) area.

I don't know how "political" the protests of rape in India is, and how rampant rape of women in India is. It would be helpful to obtain statistics of rapes in India by Indian residents vs. other countries.

 

[Donjeta]

The decision to fly her in a special air ambulance was taken at a meeting of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's cabinet on Wednesday, the government having already promised to pay all her medical bills.

But while ministers have insisted that the decision was taken purely on medical grounds, newspapers have suggested that authorities who have struggled to retain nationwide protests over the attack were keen to have her transferred out of the country.

An unnamed doctor who was part of a team of experts consulted about the transfer told The Hindu newspaper that they had only been asked whether it was safe to move her rather than if it was the best course of action.

"The question was not whether there were any deficiencies in treatment that would be met by moving her... She was being given the best possible care."

Samiran Nundy, chairman of the organ transplant and gastro-surgery department of Delhi's Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, told the paper that the transfer made little sense.

"I just can't understand why a critically ill patient with infection in blood and body, high grade fever and on the ventilator is being transferred," he said.

"It will take weeks in this case to even look into the possibility of an intestinal transplant so why hurry and take the patient out from a facility which works so well. It seems more of a political move."

http://www.news.com.au/world/india-rape-victim-to-be-flown-to-singapore/story-fndir2ev-1226544236180

 

[Sonya610]

http://www.news.com.au/world/india-rape-victim-to-be-flown-to-singapore/story-fndir2ev-1226544236180

Thank you for the link.

The decision to fly her in a special air ambulance was taken at a meeting of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's cabinet on Wednesday, the government having already promised to pay all her medical bills.

But while ministers have insisted that the decision was taken purely on medical grounds, newspapers have suggested that authorities who have struggled to retain nationwide protests over the attack were keen to have her transferred out of the country.

 

[Sonya610]

I don't know how "political" the protests of rape in India is, and how rampant rape of women in India is. It would be helpful to obtain statistics of rapes in India by Indian residents vs. other countries.

Statistics are based on government abilities/priorities and law enforcement abilities/record keeping/reporting. In some countries the murder stats are extremely high, yet rape and theft stats are very low. Why? Because the authorities can't/don't track or prosecute "minor crimes" like rape, pedophilia, robbery, burglary, etc...

 

[bourne]

There are women in the US that will tell you about vast disparities in the workplace and how women aren't treated equally or paid equally.

Iran is definitely very conservative and the government makes sure it stays that way. Having said that any bias towards women is cultural and not a matter of government policy. As a lone traveling female I was granted special priviledges several times, from having my bags waived through customs without a search, to getting a personal assistant in the airport that helped me exchange cash and get a cab, to being waived through metal detectors even though I set them off. I seriously doubt that they would have done any of those things for a lone male.

People see what they want to see. Many will look at the women in the full length black chadors as meek lambs that are forced into submissiveness. In fact only about 15% of Iranian women wear the chador, it is typically a strong statement regarding their political affiliation and identifies them as being ultra-conservative pro-government supporters from very conservative families. The chador in Iran is not a sign of submissiveness, if anything it is a sign that one had best watch their step and be on their best behavior.

Back to the subject of India -- that is one place I would NEVER want to visit, their horrid attitude towards women is one of the main reasons. Culturally they have virtually no respect towards women at all and their sexual behavior is atrocious.

Women in Asia, particularly South Asia, tend to face greater gender disparities than women in America. The government does little to protect its female citizens against inequalities in education, socioeconomics, etc. So it does appear that politics may play a role in rapes of women in South Asia.

http://www.bridge.ids.ac.uk/reports/re56.pdf

 

[bourne]

Statistics are based on government abilities/priorities and law enforcement abilities/record keeping/reporting. In some countries the murder stats are extremely high, yet rape and theft stats are very low. Why? Because the authorities can't/don't track or prosecute "minor crimes" like rape, pedophilia, robbery, burglary, etc...

I agree that the lack of self-reports by rape victims, and the lack of accuracy in recording of rapes and the prosecution of the rapes, skew the actual statistics. I would think the numbers of actual rapes then would be vastly underestimated, meaning the numbers of rapes are actually higher than what is given by stats. Because of the lack of prosecutory actions of rapists by the government, this lends to the opinion that the government do not take rapes seriously, and thus undermines the concept of equal protection of rape victims (generally women) in the eyes of the law, making rapes a political issue.

 

[Sonya610]

I agree that the lack of self-reports by rape victims, and the lack of accuracy in recording of rapes and the prosecution of the rapes, skew the actual statistics. I would think the numbers of actual rapes then would be vastly underestimated, meaning the numbers of rapes are actually higher than what is given by stats. Because of the lack of prosecutory actions of rapists by the government, this lends to the opinion that the government do not take rapes seriously, and thus undermines the concept of equal protection of rape victims (generally women) in the eyes of the law, making rapes a political issue.

Often the victims never report it because of shame, fear of family ostracism, repercussions by the rapists family, worries of being raped/shamed by the police, or because "rape just happens" deal with it.

Often the police/government really don't care nor keep good records, especially in a "high tech" country like India where image is everything in the world market. If a high profile incident occurs ship them to the best hospital in Singapore and hope the political storm passes.

 

[Ausgirl]

Laws against rape don't prevent rape. Even in "good strict Muslim countries" like Iran. Even in places where women's rights are upheld, like America. If laws and bills of rights prevented rape, a significant percentage of the crimes on this forum would never have happened at all.

Really, I was just annoyed by the vilification of India over Iran and the negative comparison made to "good strict Muslim countries", where rape happens every day, just as it does in every other nation.

But my point stands. I am not saying that rape cannot be political, or have political motives, or political ramifications or that politics doesn't play a part in attitudes toward the victims. I agree, many countries are in desperate need of revising their laws and practises regarding sex crimes.

What I am saying, though, that sex crime happens in every nation, no matter how 'enlightened' or how strict its laws - because the sickness of mind and spirit which causes one human being to want to brutalise another against their will clearly cannot be prevented by laws or political paperwork alone, unless the potential victims are subjected to substantial loss of personal freedom. With the possible exception of any culture that fosters true equality and respect among all its members.

Those six men didn't commit a political crime, or rape that poor girl because they are culturally predisposed to it. Indian men are not ALL rapists! Those men were drunk and vicious and bent on causing hurt. Like so many other rapists around the world, right now.

 

[Sonya610]

Really, I was just annoyed by the vilification of India over Iran and the negative comparison made to "good strict Muslim countries", where rape happens every day, just as it does in every other nation.

Yeah well in Iran there are no "women only train cars" as a sad and pathetic attempt to offer sanctuary from the groping and molestation the female populace endures.

In India the disgusting behavior is accepted and NOT prosecuted, and special train cars are put in force to offer a reprieve for those females that are lucky enough to have access to one. The other females can get groped or assaulted on the trains and it isn't a problem.

I guess it is all about what culture is PC these days.

When the crime of rape means a death sentence you can bet laws DO matter.