Interim discussion regarding questions from the jury and Arias on the stand #79

[SunDawnn]

Regarding the gas cans, I believe it went as follows :

1) Monterey - Arias borrows (2) can from DB
2) Salinas - Arias buys the 3rd can from Salinas Walmart and never returns it;
3) Pasadena - Arias fills the car with credit card; fills one of DB cans and the new can with the $40 cash; fills the 3rd can (one of DB's cans) with 2.77 gals as it already had some gas
4) Somewhere between Pasadena - Mesa, but probably closer to Mesa - Arias fills the car with the gas from the cans
5) After the murder, Arias drives through and out of Arizona, filling up somewhere close to the original route (I-15) from S.California to West Jordan UT
6) After seeing Ryan Burns, Arias fills car and all (3) gas cans in SLC
7) Arias fills car in Winnemucca and then again in Sparks NV
8) Somewhere in between Sparks NV and when she returned the car in Redding CA (26 hour gap), Arias has herself a bonfire destroying the remainder of the evidence and causing the smoke smell in the car. Newly purchased gas can is left behind.

IMO, there are approximately 250 unaccounted miles on Arias' rental car receipt, most likely used between Sparks NV and Redding CA. Arias would have needed the extra gas to divert off the main road and also to destroy evidence. The car was also returned with no gas in it.

Unless I am mistaking.....it might be a point of interest that, the two gas cans she borrowed from Daryl were never returned either.

 

[Zuri]

I think many think smoke from fire...but I don't.

Out in the desert...most likely days before she returned the car but even a few hours...I don't think would encapsulate the car so much that it would take over the smell of gas.

Who would be stupid enough to light a fire to burn things so close to the car with gas cans in the trunk? I mean, not saying she didn't but if she did in fact do that she's lucky she didn't explode with the car! LOL!!

So I think, personally, that smoke from fire is not likely. Plus, I am not thinking that a rental car dude is actually "looking for" that type of smell...ya know?

They WOULD care about someone smoking in the car because that's probably against the contract - though that's just my presumption. I know smoke gets into the a/c system and could make renting to the next person especially with the quick turnaround on rental cars difficult.

I just can't explain the lack of smell in the car if gas cans were stored in there like they clearly were...and her getting some cigarettes to cover the smell would again, go to premediation after the fact? LOL!!

Usually when someone describes smoke contributed to cigarettes, they say cigarette smoke. Smoke, IMO, means other than cigarette smoke. On June 8, 2008, there was a wildfire in northern California in the Ventana wilderness. Perhaps the rental car people were smelling that and attributed the smell of smoke to being in the car when perhaps, it had permeated the cloth interior with the windows down. Just a thought...

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

(Quoted Tex Mex from previous closed thread)

Tex Mex: "For some reason I think she stashed her weapons under the sink by the shower. She puts them there, then she talks him into the photos. She turns around and grabs the knife. The cabinet door under the sink was open in crime scene photos."

I think that is an interesting theory. We do know that is where the cup came from that was left in the shower after the murder.

Someone (sorry can't remember who ) posted about the knife could of come from a restaurant. Jodi testified that she took some dishes when her dad's restaurant closed. I'm sure she took more than dishes.

 

[Shelby1]

Hi HOpe,
During her testimony, Arias said Esther had bought Travis the Astroglide. (sp)
Since it's also an ingredient, some thought she was not specifically speaking of a PERSON, but the way she worded it, it sounded like a girl Travis had previously had sex with.

I think it's a person, too. Anyone else think the last name starts with "Hig"? We can see the "Hi".....I think it's a lower case "g" that comes next.

 

[kscornfed]

I think his name is actually Matt McCartney, not McCarthy. On defense witness list. Told investigators in January he would lie for Jodi. They used to date. He is married and may be rethinking lying for a killer, regardless of whether she is is friend. Speculation that he and Jodi conspired to forge letters about pedophilia from Travis. Letters proven to not be in Travis' handwriting. Don't know why he is important since both sides would declare him a liar. But JM keeps bringing up his name. Something is up.

something is DEFINITELY up. maybe MM is JM's 'dirty little secret' and we'll find out why. I HOPE SO!!!!!!

 

[JusticeJunkie]

OK, unlike Arias, I am willing to admit when I was wrong. I thought Juan following her down those rabbit holes was stupid and time consuming.
After reading Mormon Attorney's post, I owe everyone a big, I'M SORRY.
Thank you MA, for explaining it so very well, and finally getting through to me. I'm sorry I ever doubted you, Juan. Please forgive me.

 

[Clue Finder 55]

My problem with the gun shot is how did she get so lucky since she knows nothing about guns to hit him dead on if he is lunging at her. Total BS!

Especially with a gun that Travis had told her was not loaded. Magic bullet

 

[Isabelle]

I would pay to find out what the fight was about on 5/26. To my recollection, that was never brought up in court. It had to be something bad for Travis to be so upset and call her a sociopath, imo.

I may be mistaken, but I think it was at the time Travis found Jodi hacking into his electronic superhighway!

 

[kaRN]

The interesting thing about bank/card statements is that sometimes the vendor will process a transaction and it won't be posted until a day or two after the transaction. It happened to me once where I bought something on a credit card and it didn't show up until 2 weeks later.

I bet the DT tries to use that angle somehow...like the 3 SLC transactions are a posting error.

JA had 2 weeks in July before she was arrested to correct that bank error, if indeed it was one. I really don't think the DT can keep going on with blaming others. Ryan was full of carp, Walmart is wrong, now the auditors at the Bank are wrong.

 

[zoozoo]

Folks please stop blowing the margins.

What does this mean?!

 

[lil_buddy]

Mormon Attorney - just wanted to say how grateful I am to be able to hear your prospective - truly fascinating and invaluable.

Yesterday in this wonderful post which I am linking
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 100 questions from the jury: Arias answering on her 17th day on the stand #78
you said you saw "that look of defeat, of resignation". I never saw that. Can you pinpoint the approximate time you saw that? I'd like to go back and review the video to see that.

TIA

 

[Nezumi]

Especially with a gun that Travis had told her was not loaded. Magic bullet

I LOL when she testified that thought it wasn't loaded but pointed it at him to get him to stop because *she* would stop if someone pointed a gun at her. Well, duh, Jodi. Unless it was the guy told you the gun wasn't loaded.

 

[atthelake]

The interesting part of the Trial is yet to come. We now know the Jury is very intuitive. They asked incredible questions that indicate they are questioning her elaborate story to cover up a stalker like horrendous murder.

The Psychologist and Domestic Violence Expert would be told they cannot watch any part of the Trial because they are called as a Witness (and they both examined Jodi) They both submitted reports. Reports are shared with the Prosecutor.

One of a few things will happen. They will testify she "is" suffering from PTSD and she has Battered Women syndrome.

If they indicate they "believe" her that Travis was abusive and she was under his control and he was a batterer..

I guarantee this.. That DV Experts reputation and work will go right down the toilet. That is the risk of testifying in a case "for" the Defendant that we now know revealed herself to be a cold blooded killer and she is the abuser.

Nobody will trust this Psychologist, OR the DV experts judgement. If they believe her then they basically believe whatever they are told.

In a case such as this if Laviolette sides with her (and in siding with her you are saying, she should go free) Look for her speaking engagements and books sales to end. WHO could trust her...

I wonder what they would do or how they would feel if they were following along and were not supposed to? And they grossly changed their mind about her?

Can anyone speak to that? What if they want to back off some of what they have concluded? What happens?

They are hired guns for defense. It will make them even better.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sustained]

The interesting part of the Trial is yet to come. We now know the Jury is very intuitive. They asked incredible questions that indicate they are questioning her elaborate story to cover up a stalker like horrendous murder.

The Psychologist and Domestic Violence Expert would be told they cannot watch any part of the Trial because they are called as a Witness (and they both examined Jodi) They both submitted reports. Reports are shared with the Prosecutor.

One of a few things will happen. They will testify she "is" suffering from PTSD and she has Battered Women syndrome.

If they indicate they "believe" her that Travis was abusive and she was under his control and he was a batterer..

I guarantee this.. That DV Experts reputation and work will go right down the toilet. That is the risk of testifying in a case "for" the Defendant that we now know revealed herself to be a cold blooded killer and she is the abuser.

Nobody will trust this Psychologist, OR the DV experts judgement. If they believe her then they basically believe whatever they are told.

In a case such as this if Laviolette sides with her (and in siding with her you are saying, she should go free) Look for her speaking engagements and books sales to end. WHO could trust her...

I wonder what they would do or how they would feel if they were following along and were not supposed to? And they grossly changed their mind about her?

Can anyone speak to that? What if they want to back off some of what they have concluded? What happens?

LaViolette is probably receiving pressure from battered women's groups NOT to testify as Arias is not displaying any signs of being battered and would damage the cases of any future battered women going forward. And also if Arias told her that Travis was looking at child *advertiser censored* on the computer, she would have to reveal that on cross and that we know is an outright lie. If I were her, I'd withdraw from the case. But money talks ...

 

[Quester]

Honestly, I was amazed at how he knew exactly what to do with this personality. It is something I have learned as a "therapeutic parent" and was literally delighted that he understood how he needed to handle her. Here are some examples:

1. Non-sense lying is for control. JA has no respect for anyone but herself. She is smarter than anyone. To keep control, she lies even when it does not benefit her. Not only that, but it is a "test" to see if those interacting with her are smart enough to catch it. If they don't catch her, she sees them as worthless and stupid. If they do catch her and hold her accountable, they gain her respect (even though she still feels brighter). JM showed her right at the outset that he could catch her on EVERY SINGLE lie and that he could prove it. He gained her respect - that's why she looked like she enjoyed it. She finally met a worthy opponent, not just another person who feel for her stuff. Without talking bad about Nurmi, he has obviously fallen for her stuff and has not taken her to task. She does not respect him. If you notice, she tests him all the time by controlling their direct and he lets her do it. Even when he tries to give her answers, she won't always take them. Control, even when it doesn't help her. Nurmi has failed her test. Honestly, I believe she has felt "safer" with JM because he earned her respect, as opposed to Nurmi who has not earned her respect and does not have leadership with her. It literally must be scary for someone like her to be in Nurmi's hands when he has failed her tests. (And, just to clarify, as her own attorney, he did not catch the gas can stuff, he failed to see the margins of the magazines - she has gotten the best of him many times on things he could have helped her on but she didn't trust him).

2. Authority. Once JM establishes control - which is essential - he must keep it. Notice that he constantly says to her, "Mam, did I ask you if you....." when she adds to questions. He is jerking the choke chain, letting her know he is still in control and she is out of line. She bulks back at him a few times, but eventually she does submit.

3. Follow through. JM also taught her from the outset that he will never bluff. Lots of attorneys bluff or hint at evidence that may or may not come in. But, every single time she has lied and he has caught her, he has followed it through ALL THE WAY until the bitter end. In every case, she has not gotten out of it without having to face that she was caught. While this irritated some people, especially when the point was useless, it was essential with her personality that he prove his worthiness to her. One of the reasons he was able to crack her was that she now is somewhat afraid of playing the same antics (not that she won't) because she knows he will prove whatever he brings up. As a result, she is giving up much sooner than in the beginning. Notice that in the interviews with Detective Flores, even when he had actual pictures, she would say "That looks like me. How can that be?" Even photo proof didn't stop the lies. Now, JM has shown her that he will prove each and every detail and it takes the fun out of trying to lie and control him.

4. He never got flustered. As a parent, this is one thing we learn right away. To have calm control. The moment we get angry or hostile or snooty, the child has "won" in their war of control. If they can control your emotions, often that is what makes them feel powerful - it often has nothing to do with the actual outcome of events. Controlling you and your emotions is sufficient to make them feel safe and in charge (also unteachable). By remaining calm, even though animated and sometimes aggressive, he never gave her the feeling of control. Even when he had to follow endless stupid rabbit trails that outsiders thought made him look like a fool, he maintained composure and saw it to the bitter end. That is critical.

In sum, I have honestly wondered who trained him and how he had the faith to do that right. It is very hard and I am sure he had to feel stupid chasing those leads all the way to the end. But, he taught her to respect him. He taught her that he had control. And, every time she is out of line, he jerks her chain again and she often submits. I think it has been brilliant and I am just glad the jury could see it.

Just want to say - as a therapeutic parent - I often have to handle lying and violence with the same calm and be willing to calmly go through lies until we get to the truth. BUT, as parents, we are also therapeutic and giving love because our goal is to change the outcome. So, I don't want anyone to read this and think that we, as parents, need to "jerk our child's chain" as JM has done with JA. He is obviously not trying to therapeutically parent -grin! He is going for pure control and I am amazed at how well he has done it.

Excellent post - thank you!

Would love to see your suggested reading list about effective communication with these type of individuals (adults) when cutting off all ties is not possible. TIA

 

[Mrs G Norris]

OK I've been thinking about something that is bugging me .. You know how Jodi's Aunt found her mobile (in her grandparents car) and handed it into police late, like in 2010 or something ... doesn't that fit in with the same time frame as the birth of the 'Travis was a pedophile, sex deviant, abuser' defence? And is that the only place where the recording of Jodi and Travis during the infamous sex call was discovered?

 

[manzana]

Originally Posted by Mormon Attorney
Honestly, I was amazed at how he knew exactly what to do with this personality. It is something I have learned as a "therapeutic parent" and was literally delighted that he understood how he needed to handle her. Here are some examples:

1. Non-sense lying is for control. JA has no respect for anyone but herself. She is smarter than anyone. To keep control, she lies even when it does not benefit her. Not only that, but it is a "test" to see if those interacting with her are smart enough to catch it. If they don't catch her, she sees them as worthless and stupid. If they do catch her and hold her accountable, they gain her respect (even though she still feels brighter). JM showed her right at the outset that he could catch her on EVERY SINGLE lie and that he could prove it. He gained her respect - that's why she looked like she enjoyed it. She finally met a worthy opponent, not just another person who feel for her stuff. Without talking bad about Nurmi, he has obviously fallen for her stuff and has not taken her to task. She does not respect him. If you notice, she tests him all the time by controlling their direct and he lets her do it. Even when he tries to give her answers, she won't always take them. Control, even when it doesn't help her. Nurmi has failed her test. Honestly, I believe she has felt "safer" with JM because he earned her respect, as opposed to Nurmi who has not earned her respect and does not have leadership with her. It literally must be scary for someone like her to be in Nurmi's hands when he has failed her tests. (And, just to clarify, as her own attorney, he did not catch the gas can stuff, he failed to see the margins of the magazines - she has gotten the best of him many times on things he could have helped her on but she didn't trust him).

2. Authority. Once JM establishes control - which is essential - he must keep it. Notice that he constantly says to her, "Mam, did I ask you if you....." when she adds to questions. He is jerking the choke chain, letting her know he is still in control and she is out of line. She bulks back at him a few times, but eventually she does submit.

3. Follow through. JM also taught her from the outset that he will never bluff. Lots of attorneys bluff or hint at evidence that may or may not come in. But, every single time she has lied and he has caught her, he has followed it through ALL THE WAY until the bitter end. In every case, she has not gotten out of it without having to face that she was caught. While this irritated some people, especially when the point was useless, it was essential with her personality that he prove his worthiness to her. One of the reasons he was able to crack her was that she now is somewhat afraid of playing the same antics (not that she won't) because she knows he will prove whatever he brings up. As a result, she is giving up much sooner than in the beginning. Notice that in the interviews with Detective Flores, even when he had actual pictures, she would say "That looks like me. How can that be?" Even photo proof didn't stop the lies. Now, JM has shown her that he will prove each and every detail and it takes the fun out of trying to lie and control him.

4.
in their war of control. If they can control your emotions, often that is what makes them feel powerful - it often has nothing to do with the actual outcome of events. Controlling you and your emotions is sufficient to make them feel safe and in charge (also unteachable). By remaining calm, even though animated and sometimes aggressive, he never gave her the feeling of control. Even when he had to follow endless stupid rabbit trails that outsiders thought made him look like a fool, he maintained composure and saw it to the bitter end. That is critical.

In sum, I have honestly wondered who trained him and how he had the faith to do that right. It is very hard and I am sure he had to feel stupid chasing those leads all the way to the end. But, he taught her to respect him. He taught her that he had control. And, every time she is out of line, he jerks her chain again and she often submits. I think it has been brilliant and I am just glad the jury could see it.

Just want to say - as a therapeutic parent - I often have to handle lying and violence with the same calm and be willing to calmly go through lies until we get to the truth. BUT, as parents, we are also therapeutic and giving love because our goal is to change the outcome. So, I don't want anyone to read this and think that we, as parents, need to "jerk our child's chain" as JM has done with JA. He is obviously not trying to therapeutically parent -grin! He is going for pure control and I am amazed at how well he has done it.

Thanks for your insight, I agree 100% with your assessment of Nurmi and Jodi, he has led her perfectly and she decides to take a turn and not give the answer best suited for her to remain alive.

Very insightful post, I did disagree with

He never got flustered. As a parent, this is one thing we learn right away. To have calm control. The moment we get angry or hostile or snooty, the child has "won"

I thought he got flustered often and gave control to the child (JA) at times

 

[Mormon Attorney]

OK, unlike Arias, I am willing to admit when I was wrong. I thought Juan following her down those rabbit holes was stupid and time consuming.
After reading Mormon Attorney's post, I owe everyone a big, I'M SORRY.
Thank you MA, for explaining it so very well, and finally getting through to me. I'm sorry I ever doubted you, Juan. Please forgive me.

You are too cute!!

 

[PrincessSezMe]

This is an interesting Youtube video that someone is directing at Bryan Carr (the loony guy who insists on Jodi's innocence). It's interesting how he goes over the timeline of the crime based on Jodi's story of events (not believable), and how he thinks it went down.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Z8MxOfIWlFc

 

[rob]

I think it's a person, too. Anyone else think the last name starts with "Hig"? We can see the "Hi".....I think it's a lower case "g" that comes next.

Higgins, Higginbothom (my dentist for Utah, says it is a common name there)