Interim discussion regarding questions from the jury and Arias on the stand #79

[Mormon Attorney]

Thank you for you very heartfelt and informative posts.

Would the fact that her parents owed several restaurants and would have been very busy during her formative years be enough to cause her problems, IYO? Or would it take more trama?

In regards to when Jodi said on the stand that she loved her mother, I felt as if I saw a split second change in her mother's face and eyes. I feel terrible for her mom. I know she seems to act inappropriately at times but she has to be so torn up and conflicted. It's my feeling that she wants desperately to believe it wasn't premeditated but has her own doubts. I feel like when Jodi said she loved her, for a split second it hit her in the heart and she immediately rejected it knowing Jodi is manipulating her again.

If you feel comfortable sharing, it would be interesting to know if you have to form barriers, as a parent, to keep from getting hurt by the things your child may say or do to you.

Thanks for your thoughtful question. Honestly, on the restaurant issue, we can speculate as to whether that played a role, but I HIGHLY suspect there is so much more here that we do not know. As a result, I think restaurants were probably the least of the worries. I believe this family has many, many secrets that are still kept. If you look to 48 hours, she said that she had such a great childhood and her family was really close - her fantasy. TA said things about her family and he had never met them - those things must have come from her. Her mom sits there every day but does not show the emotion one would expect from a mom of a child potentially on death row - it all hints at something much bigger.


And, I think JA has probably said she loves her mom many times but because JA doesn't form attachments, particularly with females, I don't think it ever rang true. Nothing JA has said is news to her mom. I would suspect they have had very heated exchanges and it was likely such a relief when JA left. Except the issues have never left. She could be in court for many reasons, but her actions and those of JA don't show a bond or true attachment. That's why, IMV, her actions don't match what we expect her to be feeling. I am sure there is tremendous guilt -which alot of our families have whether they did something wrong or not - could I have done more? What could I have done differently? This may be the very last thing she gets to do for her child - sit in court. Even if that bond is never there, most moms long for that bond, that closeness. She likely understands JA better than anyone. Her family knows more than we will ever know. JMO.

Yes, our families have to set tremendous boundaries. One especially hard aspect is for the siblings of a child like JA. They are so good at being polite and charming that often no one outside the family could even believe what the child does at home. Siblings might have their privacy invaded, toys wrecked. They may even get beat up at home. Then, they go outside and their sibling is able to provide the best front for everyone else. Sometimes people love the disturbed sibling more than those who are trying to deal with it.

Parents raising a child like JA (who are involved with getting help) KNOW and EXPECT false allegations. They also know that a child that shows love one day may turn around and literally pee on their favorite outfit the next day. Literally. This is part of the healing. Things are not linear. They are not easy and it takes tremendous endurance. One BIG issue because of this is that we get some respite for our parents and catch them before burnout. It is really hard as a parent when you see your child showing some attachment one day and think, "We are getting somewhere!" only to find your favorite birthday card ripped to shreds on your pillow that night. Boundaries are essential, so is an outlet for the parents to express grief so they don't take it out on the child. That is so important.

 

[Nosey Parker]

It does...I thought! But I swear she said she told the Psychologist the story in 2009 (August she guessed) I will look at the Video again. It was yesterday Afternoon testimony! (and to think I was listening so carefully as I want to know the first time that started to emerge)

Stephanie, do you know under what circumstances she saw this 'psychologist'? Was it a court ordered evaluation?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Most people, men in particular, who are looking to own a gun for protection or just target shooting aren't buying a .25 caliber. More common to have a 9mm or a 45.

I guess Travis was just unlucky to have a loaded .25 in his closet when this all went down and JA was protecting herself. I mean, what are the odds that the gun was loaded and it was a caliber which typically causes the most internal damage given its lack of power (i.e., bullets don't exit as easily as a higher caliber gun)?

If you want to stop someone wanting to harm you ,you have a gun to stop them,not piss them off and make them more intent on doing it.

 

[JusticeJunkie]

It does...I thought! But I swear she said she told the Psychologist the story in 2009 (August she guessed) I will look at the Video again. It was yesterday Afternoon testimony! (and to think I was listening so carefully as I want to know the first time that started to emerge)

I posted a link last night of the trial testimony, Steph, and the exact spot about the phone.
She says she could NOT record on her phone, UNTIL she got the Helio, but in her testimony, she says she had more sex recordings on her "other phone".
Not possible for both to be true.

 

[kaRN]

They are hired guns for defense. It will make them even better.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

By JA's own testimony and response to a juror question- She has no mental condition and has not been treated for one. She was assessed by a psychologist in relation to her claims of abuse BUT WAS NOT TREATED.

I live in Canada and can't speak to the US legal system as it relates to persons who are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but I would strongly believe that persons in custody requiring treatment for mental or physical illness would be treated promptly for them in the US as they are here. I'm pretty sure it's a right enshrined in your constitution as it is in ours.
But she's received no treatment or so she says. So the assessment can't say that much or make any recommendations for medical or psychological follow-up.
Same with her BS claims of being suicidal.

 

[Shelby1]

To answer someone else's question, I have also "not" seen the Suicide letters anywhere, so I don't know where we will view them.. Or if!

Pictures of the notes displayed during the suicide talk in court are here:


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Interim discussion regarding questions from the jury and Arias on the stand #79

 

[TexMex]

You only get soot or stippling at close range of a couple of feet or so and trying to hit something with any accuracy at 30 feet with a 25 cal and moving target would be a bit of a strech.

30 inches!

 

[carnnell]

Just my opinion, but I could see JA seeing Wilmott as more of a competitor than Nurmi. Her issues force her to try to control anyone - no one is on "her team," even her own defense team (which has got to be a struggle for them). Anyway, I think JA herself probably comes across better with Nurmi because she does not see him as competition. I think with Wilmott, her control issues would be that much worse, especially because I suspect Wilmott has some talent. I think they were forced this way and I will even go so far as to say that I think Nurmi has had to "dumb down" so as not to get a negative reaction from her. I think if he went faster and was more to the point, her argumentative side would spark and they would be sunk even faster. JMO.

Can you imagine how Jodi would be with former Texas Prosecutor Kelly Siegler who prosecuted Wright for stabbing her husband 199 times? That would ultimate power show down unless Kelly figures how to deal with Miss Priss.

That would be something.

JMHO

 

[MrsProsecutor]

Can Mr Martinez turn both Experts against Jodi (in an honest way) by allowing them to talk then presenting them with the new things uncovered?

Giving them a chance to change some info they thought about her?

I think Juan can get them to testify that TRAVIS was the one battered, and NOT JA. he is very smart and there is more actual evidence that she obsessed over and was abusive to him. I'm including a bit about how he might do this that I shared on another thread:

LaViolette on Cross
Hi all, looking ahead to when the defense calls it's Domestic Abuse expert, Alyce LaViolette, to the stand, I really hope Juan uses her own book in his cross examination.

It Could Happen To Anyone: Why Battered Women Stay
By Alyce LaViolette and Ola Barnett

Excerpt pg. 111

Men in abusive relationships do not ordinarily respond the same way women do. *In the Carmody and Williams study (1987), men predicted that retaliatory physical assault by their wives was very unlikely, and they further judged the severity of their assaults as very low. *men also reported that they could easily protect themselves against physical assaults: "she was easy to stop"; "I just pushed her away"; or "I restrained her." One important reason that few men fit into the category of battered is that unless their mates have used an equalizer, such as a weapon, the men just are not afraid. *This does not mean they are not assaulted and cannot be battered.

My dream cross:
Juan: Ms. LaViolette, according to your book, a battered man would be one that had a partner who abused him using an equalizer, would that be correct?

LaViolette: yes

Juan: would a sharp knife be considered an equalizer?

LaViolette: yes

Juan: would a handgun be considered an equalizer?

LaViolette: yes

Juan: could a circumstance or a setting be used as an equalizer? For example, being in a seated position, or being wet and naked in the shower?

LaViolette: possibly

Juan: I'm done with this witness.
__________________

 

[Zuri]

Thanks for asking. If they have gotten proper help, the diagnosis has been reactive attachment disorder. However, all of these children are complex. In fact, we refer to it generally as "Complex Trauma." Most of these kids have many other diagnoses including oppositional defiant disorder, anxiety, PTSD, fetal alcohol, bipolar disorder, significant learning delays of all types*, adhd, etc. These kids have often been hit genetically and environmentally with lots of deficits.

Interesting on the learning deficits, my child has a nonverbal learning disability and also tends to take things VERY literally. When I have watched JA argue about specific words in a very literal sense, I have recognized that. While there is no doubt she is vying for control and being difficult, I also sense that she may have difficulty processing the questions as most people would. Her word "hyper-literal" would be very accurate for my child, as well.

Although I work with biological families too, our families are mostly adoptive families where there is clear evidence of abuse, neglect, or chronic instability in the first three years of life which alters brain function. Add drug exposure or fetal alcohol and that compounds things. Then, with altered brain function, you see some common traits such as failure to emotionally regulate, no impulse control, etc. These traits then often lead to the ADHD diagnosis and others. So, again, the commonality to my families is the early trauma. Some of our kids have a long list of diagnoses because of these brain changes and alcohol exposure.

Thank you for posting all of this. I did not sleep well at all after reading last night's post as it was haunting. I watched the documentary clip on here today and was further haunted. What you pointed out in your post was brought to life if you will, in the documentary. My heart broke. I am now very conflicted about JA. I have spent all this time "hating" her for what she did to TA. I absolutely "hate" what she has done to this family. I have "hated" the lack of decorum her mother has displayed along with the mocking of TA family seen on camera. I have been content to see her as demonic and soulless and deserving the DP over and over.
In Working as a critical care RN for over 30 years, I have fine tuned my observations and assessments of people, as I had to do it daily. To think that my judgement has been clouded by her heinous act and lying is very disturbing to me. Please do not misinterpret that I have sympathy for her as I don't. What do you think happened to the "child" in JA way back when? I have a hard time believing that children are born "evil". Heck, I had difficulty seeing what you saw in her face when she knew the gig was up. I am just trying to comprehend all of this as I think we all are. We would not be here if we didn't care for one reason or another. Thanks to all of you who post day after day and are as invested as I am. Respectfully submitted, IMO

 

[TexMex]

Just my opinion, but I could see JA seeing Wilmott as more of a competitor than Nurmi. Her issues force her to try to control anyone - no one is on "her team," even her own defense team (which has got to be a struggle for them). Anyway, I think JA herself probably comes across better with Nurmi because she does not see him as competition. I think with Wilmott, her control issues would be that much worse, especially because I suspect Wilmott has some talent. I think they were forced this way and I will even go so far as to say that I think Nurmi has had to "dumb down" so as not to get a negative reaction from her. I think if he went faster and was more to the point, her argumentative side would spark and they would be sunk even faster. JMO.

Do we know who will handle the experts? Hope it's Willmott!

 

[JaimeInLA]

Did the car rental guy or DB say what color Jodi's hair was? Ryan said it was blonde, right?

I'm working on a theory that maybe those sex photos weren't even taken that day. It is really bothering me that Travis has hairy legs in the shower, and hairless legs in the photos.

 

[kaRN]

Pictures of the notes displayed during the suicide talk in court are here:


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Interim discussion regarding questions from the jury and Arias on the stand #79

She was planning suicide in '07 and wanted her Grandmother to open the letters a year later??

 

[JusticeJunkie]

Thanks for your thoughtful question. Honestly, on the restaurant issue, we can speculate as to whether that played a role, but I HIGHLY suspect there is so much more here that we do not know. As a result, I think restaurants were probably the least of the worries. I believe this family has many, many secrets that are still kept. If you look to 48 hours, she said that she had such a great childhood and her family was really close - her fantasy. TA said things about her family and he had never met them - those things must have come from her. Her mom sits there every day but does not show the emotion one would expect from a mom of a child potentially on death row - it all hints at something much bigger.


And, I think JA has probably said she loves her mom many times but because JA doesn't form attachments, particularly with females, I don't think it ever rang true. Nothing JA has said is news to her mom. I would suspect they have had very heated exchanges and it was likely such a relief when JA left. Except the issues have never left. She could be in court for many reasons, but her actions and those of JA don't show a bond or true attachment. That's why, IMV, her actions don't match what we expect her to be feeling. I am sure there is tremendous guilt -which alot of our families have whether they did something wrong or not - could I have done more? What could I have done differently? This may be the very last thing she gets to do for her child - sit in court. Even if that bond is never there, most moms long for that bond, that closeness. She likely understands JA better than anyone. Her family knows more than we will ever know. JMO.

Yes, our families have to set tremendous boundaries. One especially hard aspect is for the siblings of a child like JA. They are so good at being polite and charming that often no one outside the family could even believe what the child does at home. Siblings might have their privacy invaded, toys wrecked. They may even get beat up at home. Then, they go outside and their sibling is able to provide the best front for everyone else. Sometimes people love the disturbed sibling more than those who are trying to deal with it.

Parents raising a child like JA (who are involved with getting help) KNOW and EXPECT false allegations. They also know that a child that shows love one day may turn around and literally pee on their favorite outfit the next day. Literally. This is part of the healing. Things are not linear. They are not easy and it takes tremendous endurance. One BIG issue because of this is that we get some respite for our parents and catch them before burnout. It is really hard as a parent when you see your child showing some attachment one day and think, "We are getting somewhere!" only to find your favorite birthday card ripped to shreds on your pillow that night. Boundaries are essential, so is an outlet for the parents to express grief so they don't take it out on the child. That is so important.

I really wish I could send your extraordinary posts to HLN. Not so they could see the light as I have, but because they would be such a teaching tool for so many, and get the exposure they deserve on national TV.
You are a true blessing. Thank you for sharing your inside knowledge and heart with us.

 

[CJae]

go up to the top of the thread, there's a box that says "search this thread" (right side of page) put in your user name and any posts that quoted you will show up

Thanks! Same problem here!

Also, when trying to answer posts I've often found myself locked out!

Is there a way of bringing posts from other threads to new ones?

TIA!

 

[SunnyinMO]

Why can't I get anyone to answer this?? :tears:

to the best of my knowledge I don't think we have seen them.

 

[TotallyObsessed]

Since I am really, REALLY bored today.....listening to the tape from yesterday’s awesome-ness and am making notes of some of the more nuanced moments from Mr. Juanderful.

JM: It’s fair to say the statements you made to Richard Samuels were YEARS after this case began to be prosecuted, correct?

JA: Possibly, yes. I don’t remember the exact time frame.

JM: Well it was in 2011 that you talked with him, wasn’t it?

JA: No it was 2010.

JM: SO YOU DO REMEMBER THEN that it was in 2010. So that was years after this case began to be prosecuted, right?

JA: I believe it was, yes.

JM: Well you just told me 2010. Are you going to go back on that answer or stick with it. Which one do you want?

LOLOLOL!

 

[Mormon Attorney]

Thank you for posting all of this. I did not sleep well at all after reading last night's post as it was haunting. I watched the documentary clip on here today and was further haunted. What you pointed out in your post was brought to life if you will, in the documentary. My heart broke. I am now very conflicted about JA. I have spent all this time "hating" her for what she did to TA. I absolutely "hate" what she has done to this family. I have "hated" the lack of decorum her mother has displayed along with the mocking of TA family seen on camera. I have been content to see her as demonic and soulless and deserving the DP over and over.
In Working as a critical care RN for over 30 years, I have fine tuned my observations and assessments of people, as I had to do it daily. To think that my judgement has been clouded by her heinous act and lying is very disturbing to me. Please do not misinterpret that I have sympathy for her as I don't. What do you think happened to the "child" in JA way back when? I have a hard time believing that children are born "evil". Heck, I had difficulty seeing what you saw in her face when she knew the gig was up. I am just trying to comprehend all of this as I think we all are. We would not be here if we didn't care for one reason or another. Thanks to all of you who post day after day and are as invested as I am. Respectfully submitted, IMO

I understand what you are saying. For me, JA has passed the point of no return. Once you brutally murder someone, especially premeditated, you are out of control. She knew what she did was wrong. She had the ability not to do it. She gave in to her extreme rage and jealousy. That is not ok. For that, in my view, she should get the death penalty. She had a choice and, to be clear, she knew right from wrong. Just because something happened in childhood does not excuse what she did, especially since she knew what she was doing.

I think where the haunting feeling comes in is that there are other young JA's out there. I have parents who literally KNOW that, without intervention, their child would be fully capable of doing this. It would not surprise them in the least. They are seeking help and, often, cannot find it or are denied help. As upset as we are at JA (and rightfully so), there is more we can do to help those who are on that path, while there is still a chance.


Just my thoughts.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

It does...I thought! But I swear she said she told the Psychologist the story in 2009 (August she guessed) I will look at the Video again. It was yesterday Afternoon testimony! (and to think I was listening so carefully as I want to know the first time that started to emerge)

It starts here at around 19:15 when Juan starts discussing her lies.....
[video=youtube;4BaLE7MiXvI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BaLE7MiXvI[/video]
Going through it now ....

 

[Clue Finder 55]

This is an interesting Youtube video that someone is directing at Bryan Carr (the loony guy who insists on Jodi's innocence). It's interesting how he goes over the timeline of the crime based on Jodi's story of events (not believable), and how he thinks it went down.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Z8MxOfIWlFc

I think all websleuths should take a look at this short film it is the most likely way Travis was killed with the right time frame to.
Glad you posted the youtube link.