Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

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BBM. Where did you get this fact? We do not know when or whom they called because the DA failed to obtain a subpoena.

Actually I do know what I would NOT do. My 4-yr-old disappeared from my neighbor's backyard after an older child left the gate open. Within seconds the entire neighborhood was looking. I didn't call my attorney before I found her.

One of our dogs went missing the other night and our reaction when we realized she wasn't with us was to search the ENTIRE house, top to bottom.
One of my grandkids had shut the door to my husband's basement office with her inside sound asleep under his desk.

So, yeah, I think most of us have a pretty good idea of what we'd do if our child went missing from her bed and contacting our attorney would not be high on the list if we were innocent.

Where did you get your info about them not having all the phone records they needed???

See and when my son was missing, I ran out of the club house looking for him. Never went back in until he was found. So it is just what happens in the moment. What your gut tells you and everyone else's gut is going to tell them something different. There is no Wrong there.

Mike Bynum, A corporate Atty that was John's good friend and was there that day, advised them to get attorneys.
 
Where did you get your info about them not having all the phone records they needed???

See and when my son was missing, I ran out of the club house looking for him. Never went back in until he was found. So it is just what happens in the moment. What your gut tells you and everyone else's gut is going to tell them something different. There is no Wrong there.

Mike Bynum, A corporate Atty that was John's good friend and was there that day, advised them to get attorneys.

I would have advised them to get an attorney if a body was found in their house. What we don't know is what calls were made prior to people arriving at the house.

Detective Thomas said the prosecutor's office refused to issue a subpoena for the toll records. The RANSOM NOTE said there would be a phone call.

http://crimejusticeandamerica.com/sthomas1


BILL BICKEL
Did the Ramseys call anybody BEFORE they called 911?
STEVE THOMAS
great question, and one that I had — toll records, phone records, are so simple and Police 101. But for some reason i
couldn’t make that any clearer to Hutner/Demuth/Hpofstrom in order to obtain those elementary warrants. And since
the “small foreign faction” were going to use a telephone to make the contact, the warrant would have been easy to
obtain, through the nexus. But once again, when I left the investigation, records still had not been obtained
 
I would have advised them to get an attorney if a body was found in their house. What we don't know is what calls were made prior to people arriving at the house.

Detective Thomas said the prosecutor's office refused to issue a subpoena for the toll records. The RANSOM NOTE said there would be a phone call.

http://crimejusticeandamerica.com/sthomas1


BILL BICKEL
Did the Ramseys call anybody BEFORE they called 911?
STEVE THOMAS
great question, and one that I had — toll records, phone records, are so simple and Police 101. But for some reason i
couldn’t make that any clearer to Hutner/Demuth/Hpofstrom in order to obtain those elementary warrants. And since
the “small foreign faction” were going to use a telephone to make the contact, the warrant would have been easy to
obtain, through the nexus. But once again, when I left the investigation, records still had not been obtained

That is not proof. That is one person's word. One person who never ever investigated a homicide before. One person who quit the case.

JMO

And to be clear, The GJ needed no ones permission to subpoena any record they wanted. They could have had gotten them and we would not know.
 
Whenever I see someone mention the word hinky I know they are not objectively evaluating the case. Also I don't care how long a person has investigated a case, if they were biased the whole time their investigating was worthless because the most likely ignored anything that didn't support their bias.

What I really think is that something happened that was interpreted the wrong way because of assumptions made that were wrong. I think that by reexamining those assumptions we may solve the case.

And to clarify, its completely normal to call your lawyer in a situation like this. Only people who don't have full time lawyers think it is strange. This situation is exactly when you'd call your lawyer.

If the Ramseys were innocent they called the lawyer to help with the ransom issues and to help with legal issues.

Yes and The lawyer that was there Bynum was their good friend. A Corporate lawyer.. Not a defense lawyer and was there to support them in that difficult time.
 
That is not proof. That is one person's word. One person who never ever investigated a homicide before. One person who quit the case.

JMO

And to be clear, The GJ needed no ones permission to subpoena any record they wanted. They could have had gotten them and we would not know.

Yes, it is proof from one of the detectives. The Grand Jury wasn't convened for years. Records were long gone by then but even if they had been available the Grand Jury did indict the Ramseys for crimes.

I'd love to know what your intruder theory happens to be.
 
Yes, it is proof from one of the detectives. The Grand Jury wasn't convened for years. Records were long gone by then but even if they had been available the Grand Jury did indict the Ramseys for crimes.

I'd love to know what your intruder theory happens to be.

No they are not. They are never gone. The phone companies have records that can be accessed.

Sorry, because he said it does not make it proof for me.
 
Yes and The lawyer that was there Bynum was their good friend. A Corporate lawyer.. Not a defense lawyer and was there to support them in that difficult time.

It doesn't take a lawyer to understand the need to get an attorney if a body is found in your basement.

JMO
 
It doesn't take a lawyer to understand the need to get an attorney if a body is found in your basement.

JMO

They were advised to by their good friend who was an atty and they did. It is that simple.
 
I don't look at it that way. Like everyone is guilty and then if they are found not guilty it is only a technicality.

To me you are INNOCENT until proven guilty. And if no finding of guilt is found you go back to being presumed innocent.


The presumption of innocence is for jurors.

Presumption of innocence does not extend beyond the jurors.

That why they have grand jury indictments and hold people in jail and set bail all before trial. It's not because the court believes them to be innocent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
No they are not. They are never gone. The phone companies have records that can be accessed.

Sorry, because he said it does not make it proof for me.

And that's okay. Apparently your intruder theory consists of anybody but the Ramseys?

In reality, phone companies don't have the capacity to keep billions of phone records forever. The subpoena should have been issued when it was first requested.
 
The presumption of innocence is for jurors.

Presumption of innocence does not extend beyond the jurors.

That why they have grand jury indictments and hold people in jail and set bail all before trial. It's not because the court believes them to be innocent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ITA. Especially when the investigators themselves feel there has been a terrible miscarriage of justice for the victim.
 
The presumption of innocence is for jurors.

Presumption of innocence does not extend beyond the jurors.

That why they have grand jury indictments and hold people in jail and set bail all before trial. It's not because the court believes them to be innocent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually that's not what grand juries are for. They are not for being able to hold people. They are for seeing if there is enough to bring people to trial.

It's fine if we look at it differently. Knowing that there are many people in jail that are innocent and many that have been exonerated with DNA shoes grand juries are not always right.




Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)
 
And that's okay. Apparently your intruder theory consists of anybody but the Ramseys?



In reality, phone companies don't have the capacity to keep billions of phone records forever. The subpoena should have been issued when it was first requested.

Phone companies don't just throw away records. It was not 20 years later is was 3.




Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)
 
Phone companies don't just throw away records. It was not 20 years later is was 3.




Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)

Regulators dictate how long phone records are retained and it isn't forever or even three years. The sheer volume of data would overwhelm them.
 
Actually that's not what grand juries are for. They are not for being able to hold people. They are for seeing if there is enough to bring people to trial.

It's fine if we look at it differently. Knowing that there are many people in jail that are innocent and many that have been exonerated with DNA shoes grand juries are not always right.




Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)

I do not know of a single case of prosecuted child abuse where there has been a wrongful conviction. Please enlighten me with such a case. Thanks.
 
Regulators dictate how long phone records are retained and it isn't forever or even three years. The sheer volume of data would overwhelm them.


Do you have the evidence of that? I would disagree. They came to their verdict in1999. They convened in sept 1998. Less than 2 years.




Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)
 
I do not know of a single case of prosecuted child abuse where there has been a wrongful conviction. Please enlighten me with such a case. Thanks.


They are out there. Feel free to search. Also we aren't talking about just child abuse but murder. Police are fallible. The system us fallible. We don't have a 100% completely guilty prison population in the US.




Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)
 
Steve Thomas' IRMI/kindle location 4225
We achieved a Pyrrhic victory on November 5 when Beckner burst into the SitRoom and proudly handed me a "Consent to Release of Telephone Records" signed by both John Ramsey and Pete Hofstrom. It allowed us to obtain the Ramseys' cellular and home telephone records between December 1 and 27, 1996. We had to wait almost a year to see them, which had given the Ramsey lawyers months to work through the limited documents. The woefully incomplete permission slip did not give up Ramsey's company phones, calls made with a telephone card, or records about calls before or after December. We found nothing worthwhile. Just another exhausting trip to nowhere.

I sent a fax to AirTouch in Washington state and personally served the paper on US West in downtown Denver.

"I've been waiting for a phone call from you guys since last December," a telephone company security official said as he handed me the packer. "Usually cops come and get these things right away."

I winced, so tired of being embarassed by this case.

"Yeah, I get subpoenas and warrants every day," he repeated. "Surprised you took so long."

"I'll have to explain it to you someday," I replied and headed for the elevator.

The AirTouch cell phone records were useless. Ramsey started the service in January 1994. AirTouch said that 91 minutes of use were logged during the August-September billing period of 1996, and 108 minutes were used in September-October. October-November was just as busy.

December, however, the only period we were allowed to see, was empty. No calls at all. I asked if someone could have removed billing records from the computer? "No way," the AirTouch source told me.

"All these months preceding December are busy, and not one call was logged for that entire month?"

The representative was firm: "There ain't no way anybody altered these records." It wasn't logical. A search warrant might have answered the questions eleven months ago, but we had only this thin new "consent."

Checking the records, I found a repeat caller to John Ramsey's private office line. Three calls the day after the murder and two more a few days later came from the home phone of the lieutenant governor of the State of Colorado, Gail Schoettler.

Treating her like any other witness simply didn't work. The lieutenant governor strutted her political power and stonewalled me until she was damned good and ready to answer questions. Her husband, Don Stevens, a friend of John Ramsey for thirty-five years, had made the calls merely to convey sympathy, Schoettler told me. The experience demonstrated how deeply John Ramsey was plugged into the Democratic Party power structure. Colorado Governor Roy Romer was chairman of the Democratic National Committee and advised by the politically astute Hal Haddon, one of John Ramsey's attorneys. Haddon's firm prepared President Clinton's taxes. When Schoettler left office, she was appointed head of the US delegation to an international commission by President Clinton.
 
Do you have the evidence of that? I would disagree. They came to their verdict in1999. They convened in sept 1998. Less than 2 years.




Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own. :)

Do I have "evidence" that phone companies are regulated by the public service/utilities commission in various states? Uh, yeah, I do. But that has nothing to do with your intruder theory that an intruder murdered JonBenet.

I still await your theory on the intruder killing JonBenet.
 
I do not know of a single case of prosecuted child abuse where there has been a wrongful conviction. Please enlighten me with such a case. Thanks.
The Ramseys were indicted, not convicted.

Scarlett said:
"Actually that's not what grand juries are for. They are not for being able to hold people. They are for seeing if there is enough to bring people to trial.

It's fine if we look at it differently. Knowing that there are many people in jail that are innocent and many that have been exonerated with DNA shoes grand juries are not always right."

The Riley Fox case is a prime example w/many parallels to the JBR case.
 
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