Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[Chewy]

Exactly. That is why no one should take information in this case for granted and as fact. Start fact finding for yourself and go back and hunt down what is fact and what is not. Look for the real answers.
There is a ton of stuff that is just not real evidence. It is not fact nor it is part of the case. It is just someone else's game of telephone.

The ransom note is a prime example. It is there, it it written on paper from the home and then left there with no attempt to hide the practice note or the paper and pen. That is a note written by someone that has no fear of having it linked to them.
That is what the evidence shows. That the handwriting did not match anyone tested, Also scores a point for an intruder writing the note.

So the ransom note, until proven otherwise is indeed a real ransom note.

I go with what I KNOW to be true. It took a long time for me to find out some things were just not true.

I think if people took the time to search out answers for themselves. And did not get their info from books or other people who just tell them what happened, it would be more clear what happened here.

Great post.

Especially to the bolded

I'd be curious the way you think the death wound up happening. A couple of things confuse me. I can't imagine why an abductor would try to take her body to the basement and out the window there. If they intended to take her, why not just walk out a back door? Certainly that's going to be much easier than trying to shove a child UP through a window with a metal gate over the top of it? I can see the argument that they came in that way but it doesn't make sense to me.

I wondered if the intruder could have come in during the Christmas party or at least come in and set up a way for them to return later. If this was the case then they would have had time to write the ransom note. I do agree that them not taking the draft note with them is interesting. That would be a surefire way of getting caught later, somehow having the draft note on them. I can see an intruder leaving it behind when a normal instinct would be to get rid of it.

I guess where I'm lost with the intruder is motive and why she wound up dead.

Some ideas

The entire thing was planned with her death included. They always intended to murder Jonbenet and to have the Ramseys find the body in the basement. This is why she wasn't concealed. The goal was that the Ramseys would drop off the ransom money and then go home and wait and wait and finally call the police. The police would arrive and find the body. And that's why there's a descrepency between "delivered" and "pickup" in the note. Basically they would pick her up off the floor. A sick joke.

The reason the $118,000 was chosen as the ransom amount is that they knew they'd easily be able to come up with this amount of money. Since this was a bonus there was no need to "liquedate any assets" but could just be taken. But this amount of money wouldn't be ransom worthy for an affluent person. It would be worth it to a poor person.

Another thing that people assume (as I mentioned before) is that no one knew this amount of money except those close to the Ramseys. But this isn't true. The company that processes pay checks would know this amount of money, the accountants involved and the payroll coordinator. I can imagine a group of low paid employees marveling at the largess of the top executives and resenting it. Not likely that they'd involve themselves in all this but not entirely impossible.

 

[Chewy]

Here's an interesting interview of John Ramsey. It seems like he has a suspicion of who did it. But they don't name names. If anyone wants to PM me the name of the person he thinks did it, I'd much appreciate it.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...exonerated-in-the-murder-of-his-daughter.html

 

[Anti-K]

Only if you suggest that they attempted to "Frame" someone else. If the ransom note was simply designed to create "reasonable doubt" and confusion about what happened, then it's worked beautifully.

As far as the kidnapping goes, we still are confronted by the reality that the Intruder didn't hide the body. They didn't even hide it in a box or behind something. She was left flat out in the middle of the floor. Why would a person trying to elicit a ransom leave her in such an easily found place? That's what makes the note seem fake to me.

If the note threw suspicion elsewhere, it came right back to the Ramseys the minute the body was found in the house. And, it would have come to them earlier if the so-called practice note had been found earlier.

There is simply no advantage or rationale for unnecessarily creating self-incriminating evidence, never mind that that unnecessarily created self-incriminating evidence actually contradicts what you’re trying to explain or cover up in the first place!

As far as the kidnapping goes, we still are confronted by the reality that the killer hid the body well enough to prevent the family from finding it, and that the police should have easily found it.

I can understand it if you’re troubled because you can’t see or understand a motive; but, that is no indication that one (or, an intruder) doesn’t exist.

Here are a few ideas (3 & 4, or a combination of are a cpl examples that could fit the Theory of Intent): http://tinyurl.com/kv973we
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

The note threw suspicion elsewhere. Without the ransom note you'd have parents with a murdered mutiliated body in the house and no reason to think a stranger did it. At least the ransom note created the possibility that it was an intruder.

As far as the 118, those types of coincidences happen all the time. But as for the writer subconsciously choosing the ransom amount in that number, it's too much of a stretch for me. It's too much of a coincidence that John had just received that bonus and it's an anomoly of a number to ask for.

I do think that there is a possibility that this person wanted the attention of the FBI but for what? What's the motive. Once you find that one thing in the ransom note is a flat out lie, then you can't take the rest of it the same way.

For example, they offered to return her body. And that "correction"

If we
14. monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to
15. arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
16. (delivery )pickup of your daughter.

indicates to me that the writer may have already known she was dead. But again the body wasn't concealed in the basement. Anyone who has watched any crime shows at all would assume that the body would have been found by the police within the first hour of showing up at the house.

So if an Intruder did it. What's the reason?

The ransom note contradicts the body in the house. How does this, if RDI, explain anything? The ransom note was written in the house with materials from the house. How does any of this cast suspicion elsewhere?

As you say, “Anyone who has watched any crime shows at all would assume that the body would have been found by the police within the first hour of showing up at the house.” This includes the Ramseys; right? Of course it does.

Still hoping you will explain how you make the leap from deducing that the ransom note was fake, to, it is likely that the parents wrote it.
...
AK

 

[Anti-K]

I appreciate that and have no trouble with a one on one with you. I just don't want to open it up to an onslaught.

I will give you a little here, if you want to chat in pm about it more that works for me too..

There is no history of abuse in this family.
It is Christmas night when this occurs.
The R note is written on their pad and paper but they make no attempt to destroy these things or remove them, There is a practice note in the trash, also ridiculous if they are trying to hide a crime.
The actual weapon that caused the head injury is gone. There is no tape in the house that matches the tape used on JBR.

Which means they were removed. The Tdna and the DNA in her panties match and it is not an R or anyone else that was tested, and I think it is 200 people known???
That leads to an intruder who did not care that the pad and paper were from the house because it would not lead out the door, But they did take the weapon that was used to bash in her head and the tape used on her mouth. Those things would have lead to them.

That is the simplest direct line to a theory following the evidence. Anything else leads to making up or assuming facts. And that does not work for me.

There was no practice note in the trash. There were no pages from the notepad in the trash.

There was a so-called practice note in the notepad, still attached.

According to some there was bleed through on the so-called practice note page that may have been from an even earlier draft.
...

AK

 

[Chewy]

The ransom note contradicts the body in the house. How does this, if RDI, explain anything? The ransom note was written in the house with materials from the house. How does any of this cast suspicion elsewhere?

As you say, “Anyone who has watched any crime shows at all would assume that the body would have been found by the police within the first hour of showing up at the house.” This includes the Ramseys; right? Of course it does.

Still hoping you will explain how you make the leap from deducing that the ransom note was fake, to, it is likely that the parents wrote it.
...
AK

Well one thing you can do is look at the actual result of the note rather than speculation.

The parents were never arrested. Half the people out there think an IDI. So obviously it worked. I also think (if we're talking RDI) that they needed to mutilate her body so badly that no one would believe the parents could have done it.

If Jonbenet was killed in the house and they tried to cover it up, they needed to make it look like "someone else" did it. How do you do that? Well a ransom night written by a would be abductor DEFINITELY throws suspicion elsewhere. Frankly I'm puzzled why this is so obscure to you. It's blatant to me.

What we do know is that the ransom note is FAKE for one reason. That is Jonbenet's body was murdered and left in the house. Even if you accidentally killed her, why leave the ransom note behind? Why not just take it with you.

We could argue, they accidentally killed her and had to get out of the house quickly....except this doesn't make any sense. They took her down to the basement. Why? They took time to fashion a garotte and to arrange her body and cover her body with a blanket from the dryer. If someone panicked during an accidentally killing, they certainly wouldn't linger in the house so long to do such things.

So that would mean they took her down to basement. Why did they take her there if they intended to kidnap her?

Perhaps you can explain this?

 

[Chewy]

There was no practice note in the trash. There were no pages from the notepad in the trash.

There was a so-called practice note in the notepad, still attached.

According to some there was bleed through on the so-called practice note page that may have been from an even earlier draft.
...

AK

What difference does it make that it was in the trash or on the note pad, bottom line is that they left it behind instead of taking it with them.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

There was no practice note in the trash. There were no pages from the notepad in the trash.



There was a so-called practice note in the notepad, still attached.



According to some there was bleed through on the so-called practice note page that may have been from an even earlier draft.

...



AK

Huh,really?! so all this time I got suckered in by the practice not was in the trash fallacy. Color me corrected . I swear there were even links about it here.

Thanks for clearing that up.



Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

 

[Mama2JML]

Huh,really?! so all this time I got suckered in by the practice not was in the trash fallacy. Color me corrected . I swear there were even links about it here.

Thanks for clearing that up.

You were probably confusing the "practice note" with the note (or card) found in the wastebasket in JonBenét's bedroom.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-neighbors-barbara-kostanick.htm

 

[THE BUNK]

As far as the 118, those types of coincidences happen all the time. But as for the writer subconsciously choosing the ransom amount in that number, it's too much of a stretch for me. It's too much of a coincidence that John had just received that bonus and it's an a

Especially an amount that was easily obtainable at the time. If the Ramsey's had to withdraw 500K that might be more difficult and hurt the family financially.

 

[Anti-K]

Well one thing you can do is look at the actual result of the note rather than speculation.

The parents were never arrested. Half the people out there think an IDI. So obviously it worked. I also think (if we're talking RDI) that they needed to mutilate her body so badly that no one would believe the parents could have done it.

If Jonbenet was killed in the house and they tried to cover it up, they needed to make it look like "someone else" did it. How do you do that? Well a ransom night written by a would be abductor DEFINITELY throws suspicion elsewhere. Frankly I'm puzzled why this is so obscure to you. It's blatant to me.

What we do know is that the ransom note is FAKE for one reason. That is Jonbenet's body was murdered and left in the house. Even if you accidentally killed her, why leave the ransom note behind? Why not just take it with you.

We could argue, they accidentally killed her and had to get out of the house quickly....except this doesn't make any sense. They took her down to the basement. Why? They took time to fashion a garotte and to arrange her body and cover her body with a blanket from the dryer. If someone panicked during an accidentally killing, they certainly wouldn't linger in the house so long to do such things.

So that would mean they took her down to basement. Why did they take her there if they intended to kidnap her?

Perhaps you can explain this?

Ah, but we aren’t talking about being arrested; we’re talking about “suspicion.” And, the note being written in the house and with materials from the house served to cast suspicion towards those who were known to be in the house. So, yes, let’s look at the actual result of the note rather than speculation: suspicion directed towards the parents.

That’s JBR 101, my friend.

People report (fake) kidnappings only after a body has been disposed of. In fact, it is the disposal that causes the killer to make such a report – they need to explain why so-and-so is missing. In such a case a ransom note would make sense and a ransom note would point suspicion elsewhere. But, Jonbenet was not missing; she had not been disposed of. If RDI, the note becomes nonsensical, contradictory, and unnecessarily self-incriminating.
.

Most of your musings are answered here: http://tinyurl.com/kv973we
.
If RDI, the Ramseys needed to explain a dead child. They could have thrown her down the spiral stairs, waited an hour or more, then driven her to the hospital and claimed that they found her on the floor – she must have fallen down the stairs while we were sleeping – no self-incriminating evidence, no ligatures, garrote, tape, blanket, basement; no 91 call to the police, no police, no crime scene, nothing, just lawyers and lies and getting the hell outta Dodge.

No one reports a fake kidnapping until after they’ve disposed of the body.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

What difference does it make that it was in the trash or on the note pad, bottom line is that they left it behind instead of taking it with them.

It’s the difference between what IS evidence and what is NOT evidence.
Besides that: a so-called practice note in the trash might suggest that they had tried to dispose of it, thus severing the connection between notepad and note. A so-called practice note in the notepad means they did not attempt to get rid of it (of course, there is more to it than that!).
...

AK

 

[2 percent]

Yes, I'm saying that when I read through theories(I'm no expert by any means I'm just pretty good at detecting hystrionic thinking) and I see someone trying to shoehorn a coincidence into their theory it always throws off (In my opinion) the very good critical thinking skills that it started off with.

What you wrote was a very valid idea. Well one of them anyway, that is that everything mentioned in the ransom note was designed to get the attention of the FBI.

But when you start grasping at straws like "the number 118 was written ten times on those two pages" you get lost in the dust you are kicking up with your add ons. Your idea doesn't need add ons.

This is just my bias btw but it's been the way I've seen cold cases solved in the past. The new set of eyes goes back to the information and looks at who lied and what assumptions were made that were wrong.

So we need to look at all the assumptions being made. You bring up a very good one, that is the ransom note was fake.

There's a few reasons most of us think this.

A. Jonbenet wasn't kidnapped, she was dead in the house
B. It was a really long ransom note that was written in the house
C. It was filled with melodramatic "movie lines" and seemed to ramble

If we deduct that this means the ransom note was fake we can surmise it is likely that the parents wrote it to throw suspicion off of them. (I'm still thinking this is the case but it is interesting to reexamine the above assumptions.)

A. It could be that Jonbenet was accidentally killed during the kidnapping and then they mutilated her and left her right there because they never intended to kill her. It was a real kidnapping.

B. It could be that the ransom note was written by someone who lingered in the house hours before the Ramseys came home.

C. It could be that the ransom note had another reason for being written the way it was. And you bring up that perhaps the perpetrator wanted the FBI to get involved.

This is an interesting observation because as I've stated before, the perpetrators couldn't possibly have thought that the cops wouldn't find the body until hours later. It wasn't hidden in the basement. There were places the body could have been concealed if they wanted to hide it. It was left out to be found. So why was this?

I think the RN is a fake.
It's too long-winded, too threatening (6 times saying JB will die, be executed or beheaded) and too specific for any kind of professional experience as they claim (watching them without being spotted?! SNORT :floorlaugh

But mostly I think it's crap because of the claim that they will scan John for electronic devices...there was going to be face to face contact? There was only the mention of delivery and pickup, why not mention face to face electronic scanning there? Remember, we're assuming this was planned out...they couldn't work harder on a legible and understandable RN without over doing the death threats and going on and on and on and on...

 

[THE BUNK]

If RDI, the Ramseys needed to explain a dead child. They could have thrown her down the spiral stairs, waited an hour or more, then driven her to the hospital and claimed that they found her on the floor – s

1. Throwing her down the stairs would not provide a murder weapon, which the garrotte does.

2. By saying they found her down the stairs, there would be no intruder. So it would be a question of whether this was an accident. They would have no evidence to show that an intruder arrived-something that the ransom note provides. It's evidence that they can show a police officer to prove an intruder.

3. The Ramsey's would have to explain what Jon Benet was doing up...which would also lead to the question of was anyone up the same time as Jonbenet was. The question whether Burke was up with Jonbenet would make it a necessity that Burke be interviewed.

4. The Ramsey's would be putting themselves at the mercy of the autopsy. If the autopsy shows that Jonbenet couldn't have died from falling down the stairs. That's it. The Ramsey's are lying and there is no intruder to fall back on.

5. A fall downs the stairs would not explain the past molestation which a sexual attack from an intruder would have explained.

6. In that scenario, the Ramsey's know nothing. They aren't supposed to know how Jonbenet wound up on the floor. That's a mystery. Being that this is a death of a child, there will be a full investigation to make sure it is not a homicide. This would mean the Ramsey's would have to come up with a cover story AFTER the fact.

7. I'm pretty sure if giving enough time, the Ramsey's could have made several improvements on this theme. Problem is they didn't have time. A decision had to be made and action had to be taken right away.

8. More importantly...if Jonbenet survived and woke up...what prevents her from saying "Mommy and Daddy hurt me!" to the doctors and the investigators.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I think the RN is a fake.
It's too long-winded, too threatening (6 times saying JB will die, be executed or beheaded) and too specific for any kind of professional experience as they claim (watching them without being spotted?! SNORT :floorlaugh

But mostly I think it's crap because of the claim that they will scan John for electronic devices...there was going to be face to face contact? There was only the mention of delivery and pickup, why not mention face to face electronic scanning there? Remember, we're assuming this was planned out...they couldn't work harder on a legible and understandable RN without over doing the death threats and going on and on and on and on...

To me the RN reads like a power trip for some younger man or a guy who felt inadequate and spent too much of his life watching movies. It seems to me it was written to get out their feelings more than to get cash for JBR. It reads to me like someone wanting to teach JR a thing or two.

It is certainly not what someone would write who was trying to make a murder look like a kidnapping and trying to cover up an accidental death.

It would be short and simple then.

It sounds just like a delusional wild thinker to me. Someone who wants to be powerful but just is not.

 

[THE BUNK]

To me the RN reads like a power trip for some younger man or a guy who felt inadequate and spent too much of his life watching movies

A young man uses the word "fat cat" and "advises you be well rested"?

He feels inadequate...yet he refers to himself as a SMALL foreign faction.

He wants to feel important.....yet he never says he will kill Jonbenet..just that she will die.

The language is not consistent with a 30 and under.

It is certainly not what someone would write who was trying to make a murder look like a kidnapping and trying to cover up an accidental death.

Even though he alluded several times that if they speak to the police she would be dead?

It would be short and simple then.

The reason why it's not short and simple is that several pieces of information had to be given to to the police.

1. That this is a definitively a kidnapping and nothing else. Certainly not a sexual crime.

2. That they are not a child molester, serial killer, or the parents...bu that they are a foreign faction doing this for political reasons.

3. They are expecting the money to be withdrawn. So they had to spend a lot of the letter explaining exactly how this money would be take out. Taking out mind you...not delivered!!

4. They had to explain clearly that if the police was called or anybody else that Johnbenet would not only die but her body would never be returned.

5. They had to explain there would be an action that would signal the drop request. The phone call. If the phone call is not received...then it becomes a clear signal that the Ramsey's did not follow the orders and Jonbenet is dead.

 

[2 percent]

To me the RN reads like a power trip for some younger man or a guy who felt inadequate and spent too much of his life watching movies. It seems to me it was written to get out their feelings more than to get cash for JBR. It reads to me like someone wanting to teach JR a thing or two.

That is not what the RN is saying. As a matter of fact there is no direct threat to John at all - in the third sentence the RN says they respect his business!!! The closest the RN came to insulting John was the brain thing.
No direct threats to John, several direct threats to JB. It's clear the note wanted to give several scenarios of death for JB but none for John and no other family member was mentioned. You don't find it odd that JB was the only one threatened with death and she was the only one that died?
I do

It is certainly not what someone would write who was trying to make a murder look like a kidnapping and trying to cover up an accidental death.

Yea, it is. It's a desperate attempt to set up her death.
Again, the note was all about JB dying in different ways for different reasons. Funny isn't it that they said she'd die if the cops were called...and she died.

It would be short and simple then.

Almost all ransom notes are short and simple. They are written beforehand and are purposefully concise and to the point. Practiced too.
If anything the fact that this is long and rambling means it was written by someone who was not focused while writing and under a real or imaginary time crunch as well as some stress.

It sounds just like a delusional wild thinker to me. Someone who wants to be powerful but just is not.

Sounds to me like someone with diarrhea of the mouth who has to use 15 words to say what most can say in 5. The first half of the note is very different than the second half, too.

 

[THE BUNK]

his life watching movies

I think if he was a real movie buff he would use a lot more allegories to old movies. Much like how Zodiac kept referencing movies like the "most dangerous game" and the "Tenth Victim" and The Red Phantom. Two of which are obscure movies.

Ransom was not an obscure movie. It was played quite often on cable back then. Any person who watched it casually could pick up a line or two from it.

 

[THE BUNK]

Sounds to me like someone with diarrhea of the mouth who has to use 15 words to say what most can say in 5. The first half of the note is very different than the second half, too.

Diarrhea of the hand is more like it! I agree. This is a person who likes to write and is used to writing long notes in this type of style and voice.

It almost seems like the writer used to be a secretary.

Listen Carefully is an awful lot like ATTENTION. The type of thing you put on a company memo.

In fact the whole Ransom not reads like a company wide memo that a secretary would write on behalf of his or hers boss.

It also sounds like a note your mother would leave for you when you are going away to camp.

The writer of the ransom note writes letters like this all the time, IMHO. All they did was change the subject from a company picnic to a ransom demand.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

IMO the Ransom note points far away from an R writing it. It makes sense to me that it was someone who felt they were important but not recognized as such.

If you are writing a note and don't want it to lead to you, You write as little as possible, unless you are not anyone known to the family, and don't care. Then you can say what you want for the attention you want, and try and scare people.