Mama2JML
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Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2
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tovarisch
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Thank you, I appreciate your honesty.
But I`m in bulldogging mood. And I want to ask Mr. UK Guy :
Please, if you have a book you are referring, and you even know the page, give all of us the wording about that it was Meyer himself providing additional info on the shape and size of pineapple.
Thank you in advance.
tovarisch,
Excerpt from Autopsy Report, July 14, 1997
Excerpt from, JonBenet: Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas, pp 192
You can find other quotes to confirm Coroner Meyer's claim that he found pineapple in JonBenet's digestive tract here:http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-pineapple.htm
.
tovarisch,
1. we is the plurality of ws members who accept the assurances of multiple investigators including the coroner, who state that pineapple was discovered in JonBenet's digestive tract.
2. JonBenet's head injury does not prevent the stomach continuing to digest the pineapple. select any passage of time you like, it has no impact on what JonBenet last ate. dying is the head injury in combination with the ligature asphyxiation.
3. Steve Thomas.
4. All printed matter relating to JonBenet's homicide is literature, since it has been authored by literate people, e.g. Alex Hunter authored the true bills but never signed or announced that they existed publicly.
See above post for further reading regarding the pineapple.
.
aussiesheila2
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Hi again again Tovarisch,
I applaud your efforts to get to the primary sources of all information we have about the case. It is something I always try to do too like you, partly because of my previous occupation also.
The quote you requested from Schiller’s book is as follows:
PMPT
“Meyer noted in his report that the pineapple in JonBenet’s small intestine was in near-perfect condition – it had sharp edges and looked as if it had been recently eaten and poorly chewed.
Based on the condition of the pineapple in her intestine, the experts estimated that JonBenet had eaten it an hour and a half or two before she died., most likely after the family returned home that night.”
Like so much information the ‘one and a half hours’ bit has been attributed by many people to Meyer. But I don’t know that this is necessarily correct. Schiller says in the above quote that it was ‘experts’ who gave this estimation but I don’t know who the ‘experts’ were. One of them could have been Meyer I suppose.
edit: sorry for re-posting what Andreww already has done
Global Justice Ops
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In my opinion, it keeps coming back to JonBenet waking up and going dowm for a snack or an intruder feeding her the snack.
I wonder if John or Patsy ever commented on her sleeping habits. Like if she would ever wake up and go downstairs.
I wonder if John or Patsy ever commented on her sleeping habits. Like if she would ever wake up and go downstairs.
Mama2JML
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A continuation of the quoted paragraph from my PMPT:
"However, one Boulder medical examiner stated it could have been eaten as early as 4:30 P.M.before the Ramseys left their home for a dinner at the Whites."
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"However, one Boulder medical examiner stated it could have been eaten as early as 4:30 P.M.before the Ramseys left their home for a dinner at the Whites."
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tovarisch
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Today I will present my analysis of additional info on pineapple, which was kindly provided by the fellows web-rs. I want to show how I look for three I s: inconsistent, incomplete, incorrect information.
After that, I want to put it aside on the shelf, for now, and move on anther interesting topics.
I will start with the official document, coroner`s Meyer autopsy report , quote:
The esophagus is empty. It is lined by gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains a small amount (8-10 cc) of viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material without particulate matter identified. The gastric mucosa is autolyzed but contains no areas of hemorrhage or ulceration. The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple. No hemorrhage is identified. The remainder of the small intestine is unremarkable. The large intestine contains soft green fecal material. The appendix is present.
My taking on it: this is the official document, coroner reported his due diligent job to state/ DA. Key words: stomach is empty; food in small intestine; fragmented pieces; yellow-light green- tan; may represent fragments of pineapple. And that`s it. No size, no shape, no edges.
My thinking of possible: Meyer preserved contents for further research; under microscope, and later reported of his findings more thoroughly. Possible? -Yes. Do we know about it ? NO. Was it secret second report? You guess.
My conclusion: before further knowledge about the second look of Meyer, I assume that coroner`s autopsy report is the only ONE that exists.
Now, I`m reading S. Thomas quote from the book:
Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that it was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl. It was solid proof that it wasn't canned pineapple, and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?
My taking: OUR EXPERTS. Nameless, but multiple. Ok. Studied pineapple in the stomach. STOMACH? STUDIED? I know that Meyer was only one professional who performed the autopsy. When this group of experts had access to the body ? Or the contents? I do not know, never heard of. OK. What the experts studied for and what their finding? Here- it was not canned pineapple. And that`s it ? OK, I`m thinking. Something else of importance? Shape or size ? None. Ok, memorizing : Thomas`s experts found it was not canned pineapple.
My conclusion: inconsistent info, pineapple was not in the stomach. Incomplete info- nameless experts. No reference to Meyer`s himself. What I want to do with this info, where 2 out of three Is presented. Frankly? Nothing.
Now, I `m reading info from another book, PMPT:
Meyer noted in his report that the pineapple in JonBenets small intestine was in near-perfect condition it had sharp edges and looked as if it had been recently eaten and poorly chewed.
Based on the condition of the pineapple in her intestine, the experts estimated that JonBenet had eaten it an hour and a half or two before she died., most likely after the family returned home that night.
My taking: Wow. There is a hint on ANOTHER Meyer`s report, where shape and edges and poorly chewed come to the light. Because as far as we know the autopsy report, it was not there.
Next, the experts . Estimated an 1 and ½ before she dyed she ingested pineapple.
My taking: nameless experts, plural. OK. . They estimated the time of ingesting, STOP .This is not that Thomas`s experts had done. Thomas`s experts- estimated canned pineapple. Schillers`s experts- time of ingestion. Should I understand and believe according to PMPT, there were 2 reports of Mr. Meyer himself. And two groups of additional experts, one Thomas`s and Schillers with their narrows tasks on the subject?.
My conclusion: Inconsistent with the common knowledge of the one report. Experts are nameless meaning incomplete info. Two I out of 3 possible alerts. Would I consider this info and rely on it ? Not me.
After that, I want to put it aside on the shelf, for now, and move on anther interesting topics.
I will start with the official document, coroner`s Meyer autopsy report , quote:
The esophagus is empty. It is lined by gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains a small amount (8-10 cc) of viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material without particulate matter identified. The gastric mucosa is autolyzed but contains no areas of hemorrhage or ulceration. The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple. No hemorrhage is identified. The remainder of the small intestine is unremarkable. The large intestine contains soft green fecal material. The appendix is present.
My taking on it: this is the official document, coroner reported his due diligent job to state/ DA. Key words: stomach is empty; food in small intestine; fragmented pieces; yellow-light green- tan; may represent fragments of pineapple. And that`s it. No size, no shape, no edges.
My thinking of possible: Meyer preserved contents for further research; under microscope, and later reported of his findings more thoroughly. Possible? -Yes. Do we know about it ? NO. Was it secret second report? You guess.
My conclusion: before further knowledge about the second look of Meyer, I assume that coroner`s autopsy report is the only ONE that exists.
Now, I`m reading S. Thomas quote from the book:
Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that it was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl. It was solid proof that it wasn't canned pineapple, and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?
My taking: OUR EXPERTS. Nameless, but multiple. Ok. Studied pineapple in the stomach. STOMACH? STUDIED? I know that Meyer was only one professional who performed the autopsy. When this group of experts had access to the body ? Or the contents? I do not know, never heard of. OK. What the experts studied for and what their finding? Here- it was not canned pineapple. And that`s it ? OK, I`m thinking. Something else of importance? Shape or size ? None. Ok, memorizing : Thomas`s experts found it was not canned pineapple.
My conclusion: inconsistent info, pineapple was not in the stomach. Incomplete info- nameless experts. No reference to Meyer`s himself. What I want to do with this info, where 2 out of three Is presented. Frankly? Nothing.
Now, I `m reading info from another book, PMPT:
Meyer noted in his report that the pineapple in JonBenets small intestine was in near-perfect condition it had sharp edges and looked as if it had been recently eaten and poorly chewed.
Based on the condition of the pineapple in her intestine, the experts estimated that JonBenet had eaten it an hour and a half or two before she died., most likely after the family returned home that night.
My taking: Wow. There is a hint on ANOTHER Meyer`s report, where shape and edges and poorly chewed come to the light. Because as far as we know the autopsy report, it was not there.
Next, the experts . Estimated an 1 and ½ before she dyed she ingested pineapple.
My taking: nameless experts, plural. OK. . They estimated the time of ingesting, STOP .This is not that Thomas`s experts had done. Thomas`s experts- estimated canned pineapple. Schillers`s experts- time of ingestion. Should I understand and believe according to PMPT, there were 2 reports of Mr. Meyer himself. And two groups of additional experts, one Thomas`s and Schillers with their narrows tasks on the subject?.
My conclusion: Inconsistent with the common knowledge of the one report. Experts are nameless meaning incomplete info. Two I out of 3 possible alerts. Would I consider this info and rely on it ? Not me.
otg
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It's very convenient for you that you can state something as an accepted fact which comes from sources that you discount when used by others. Again, it is only showing your selective use of information to arrive at a presupposed conclusion.
Since you ask it of others, please tell us where, in anything "official" (as in your criteria above: "Stamped and signed. Official document. Visible by itself."), it states that the coroner estimated that JonBenet died at midnight (rsbm):
Where is it stated "officially" (as in your criteria above: "Stamped and signed. Official document. Visible by itself.") the time interval between the head blow and the garrote? Your words (rsbm):
I think the only place the 60 to 90 minute estimate is mentioned is in Kolar's book while writing about one doctor's opinion. Using your words again (rsbm):
[[[Pot, meet the kettle. Goose, meet the gander.]]]
Tovarisch, I would agree that different weights need to be placed on information depending on its origin. But as Andreww points out above, with only "official" documents, we're not left with much to discuss. And "experts" disagree and contradict one another, so one can make a case for almost anything if we select only those we agree with. I think you're right to suggest moving on from this subject. You've obviously made up your mind about it.
otg
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June 1998, John Ramsey interview by Lou Smit, Mike Kane:
0212
19 LOU SMIT: Do you know if JonBenet would
20 ever get up in the middle of the night to eat
21 these things?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. Not -- no.
19 LOU SMIT: Do you know if JonBenet would
20 ever get up in the middle of the night to eat
21 these things?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. Not -- no.
And:
18 LOU SMIT: See, that is a
19 question, when did JonBenet eat pineapple?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
21 I mean, the I will guarantee you it was not
22 after she came home. She was sound asleep. So
23 it had to be at the Whites or prior to that.
24 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now when
25 you say it wouldn't be afterwards, I mean
0518
1 now that's why you know this is going to
2 be a (INAUDIBLE) the question that's going
3 to always be asked?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: She was sound
5 asleep. When I carried her upstairs. I mean I
6 noted when I got her out of the car, and I
7 struggled to get her out of the back seat and
8 she was just, (NOISE) I almost dropped her, I
9 kind of struggled to get her up in my arms and
10 it didn't phase her, she didn't wake up, she was
11 just out. And I know, if she goes to sleep, she
12 is -- that's it for the night.
19 question, when did JonBenet eat pineapple?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
21 I mean, the I will guarantee you it was not
22 after she came home. She was sound asleep. So
23 it had to be at the Whites or prior to that.
24 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now when
25 you say it wouldn't be afterwards, I mean
0518
1 now that's why you know this is going to
2 be a (INAUDIBLE) the question that's going
3 to always be asked?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: She was sound
5 asleep. When I carried her upstairs. I mean I
6 noted when I got her out of the car, and I
7 struggled to get her out of the back seat and
8 she was just, (NOISE) I almost dropped her, I
9 kind of struggled to get her up in my arms and
10 it didn't phase her, she didn't wake up, she was
11 just out. And I know, if she goes to sleep, she
12 is -- that's it for the night.
tovarisch
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To OTG:
You are right, I do not have answers where all this "facts" came from, TOD, time in between the head blow and garrote, and so on.. When I think about it, I realize--who knows where I got this knowledge. That`s what is served to the common guys as "facts", but it might be far from the truth.
Concerning the pineapple, I have not made my mind, that`s why I want to get away from it for a while. I said I`m not putting on the shelf as a done deal.
The only I made my mind on that the theory JB ate pineapple after Whites is not exclusive.
To ALL: I want to ask your attention, if you are interested, on the following issue:
I`m very intrigued by the Santa letter " I love you all", found in the waste basket in JB room, torn. I post my concerns in post # 1670, do not want to re-type it. I found info on candyrose site in interview Lou Smit-John Ramsey 1998-06-23, ## 0550-0551,and it bothers me a lot.
You are right, I do not have answers where all this "facts" came from, TOD, time in between the head blow and garrote, and so on.. When I think about it, I realize--who knows where I got this knowledge. That`s what is served to the common guys as "facts", but it might be far from the truth.
Concerning the pineapple, I have not made my mind, that`s why I want to get away from it for a while. I said I`m not putting on the shelf as a done deal.
The only I made my mind on that the theory JB ate pineapple after Whites is not exclusive.
To ALL: I want to ask your attention, if you are interested, on the following issue:
I`m very intrigued by the Santa letter " I love you all", found in the waste basket in JB room, torn. I post my concerns in post # 1670, do not want to re-type it. I found info on candyrose site in interview Lou Smit-John Ramsey 1998-06-23, ## 0550-0551,and it bothers me a lot.
Mama2JML
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You may have overlooked my reply to your post; #1674, but I am bothered by the entire 'secret Santa' mystery as well.
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tovarisch
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Mama2 I have overlooked your post 1674, I`m on it now. But I have not overlooked your post I believe it was 1687- Bravo ! for your research ,I told before that you are the best researcher )))). Of course, nameless expert`s opinion mentioned by Schiller, but nevertheless, kind of thank you, Schiller.. for diversity...
You are right, it should have been looked deeply on all Santas in JB life before her death on Christmas, I hope they still have that letter, or card for the fingerprints.
I agree with you when "I love you all" addressed to the whole family, that`s how you address it, but if it address to one little girl?
After more research on the topic I `ll share my thoughts.
You know, I smell burning, that`s the expression, I have feeling that something is not right with this letter.
BBM. My guess is that the quote probably came from one of LA's experts. We know that he always considered the pineapple issue as the "big bugaboo" in his story, so he may have been trying to suggest that the pineapple was eaten hurriedly, without the parents knowledge. At least that is what it sounds like to me, and in my mind it is still a possibility that JB and Burke snuck downstairs and quickly gobbled down a few bites. This would explain the absence of individual serving dishes and spoons. So the kids sneak down, gobble a few bites, the hightail it back upstairs forgetting to return the serving bowl to the fridge. Seems a more likely scenario than Patsy leaving food on the counter to spoil.
Mama2JML
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"Gastric emptying has been completely discredited as a means of estimating the time of death..."
https://books.google.com/books?id=4...th&output=html_text&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1
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https://books.google.com/books?id=4...th&output=html_text&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1
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Again, especially on the Internet you can find an expert to say whatever you want them to say.
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Mama2JML
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I understand your point, but the source to which I referred in my previous post is a college-level textbook, written by a team of forensic pathologists/MEs/experts. The information I cited is up-to-date and based on scientifically- validated research. There is no mention of JonBenét Ramsey, RDI, IDI, etc. If you are aware of a comparable resource that supports your "pineapple theory", please, DO share.
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tovarisch
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Mama2, thank you for the great finding, this is not Literature, this is modern Science, and that`s what was lacking in JB`s investigation.
I'm not going to waste time and effort chasing down a source that would give a differing opinion because it would be a waste of time. I agree that digestion rate can not be accurately used as a time indicator, simply because different people process food faster or slower. Even the same individual might process food faster or slower on any given day.
But this is a different circumstance. We know JB didn't eat pineapple at the Whites. We know she ate crab at the Whites. Her stomach was empty. Pineapple was found that had just vacated the stomach. No signs of undigested crab were found. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that the last thing she ate was pineapple and that it was eaten after the Whites party when she arrived home.
I am not using digestion as a measure of time here, but in conjunction with other evidence (PWs assertion that she didnt serve pineapple, the Rs assertion that JB was fast asleep when they got home, and the bowl of pineapple on the counter) it clearly shows that the Rs are not being truthful. And it most certainly shows that she did not eat that pineapple prior to going to the Whites as the crab she ate there would have been behind the pineapple in the small intestine or still in the stomach.
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Mama2JML
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We know crab was served, and we know Priscilla saved a plate of crab for JB, but we don't know that JonBenét ate anything, @ the Whites' house.
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