Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[tovarisch]

Now a days, probably not. And in your country, probably not as well. But in the US back then, most people kept their brown grocery bags.

Why perp(s) was so detailed about the money handling down to the obsessive instructions and concerns?

It's not really obsessive. The money was divided in a logical way that most people would divide it. $118,000 was divided into $100,000 & $18,000. A logical way that could actually be put A truly insane person would have divided the amount into 55,320 in tens, 26,340 in fives. 300 in hundreds, etc. This example is hyperbole, but the point is that an insane person would have chosen amounts and denominations that would be illogical to obtain, much less put in an attache case.

You see this is the big reason why the killer expected the ransom to be obtained and it wasn't meant to be a sick joke.



RDI;s aren't averting it. They are just waiting along with the IDI's for it to be matched to an actual suspect. A wait that is making the validity of it less and less likely by the year.

All I know is that we have DNA of an unknown person that could be the DNA of JonBenet's killer or the DNA of some slacker employee that blew his nose at his day job at the underwear manufacturer.

The fact that CODIS has not produced anything leads to the fact that this killer amazingly has never been convicted for a crime since or after JonBenet's death.

Also of note, the presence of one piece of evidence does not eliminate the presence of other pieces of evidence. This is the biggest mistake that people make in cases.

You and I live in the same country. Yes, I pay my personal taxes to IRS (in case, some people sometimes ask me). No, my American husband and me, we don`t collect paper bags in the kitchen. Ok, I will give you the reason why. I`m afraid of cockroaches.

There are solid forensic evidences pointing away from Ramsey. The whole list of them, not just DNA, brown paper bags particles just one of many others, not sourced.

The killer was an abnormal individual in every sense that reflected in the ransom note, and in the crime.
The level of intelligence of ransom is below middle standard, not ransom rather sick joke. They would never call. Body was in the basement.

 

[THE BUNK]

Yes, I pay my personal taxes to IRS (in case, some people sometimes ask me)

I'm not sure why it was relevant to tell me that, but OK. Whatevs.

The level of intelligence of ransom is below middle standard, not ransom rather sick joke.

The ransom note is not indicative of a person with below average intelligence. "Countermeasures" is not a word a below average intelligence person uses. The ransom note writer has at least college education and a history of office work. The writer is used to written letters in this style, which may indicate a position such as human resources, office manager and/or secretarial work. In fact the letter has a lot in common with your typical office memo.

The most interesting thing about the letter is that although the letter writer is familiar with grammar and composition...there is very little literary wit to it. This letter is not written like a diary, a poem or a novel. It's not even written like a crime novel. So, I don't think the letter writter has an english lit background .

I don't even think this letter writer is even insane or mentally disturbed. The letter reads very well and clear. The writer's train of thought does not wander to unrelated subjects. His thoughts are organized well. The letter AMAZINGLY follows an outline structure!!! This writer learned how to write book reports and thesis. This person has a better education than most people in this country. (sad to say).

There are solid forensic evidences pointing away from Ramsey. The whole list of them, not just DNA, brown paper bags particles just one of many others, not sourced.

If the forensics are so solid, why have you been unable to identify a suspect? It's easy to play lawyer, but much harder to play detective, isn't it? Solving a case is like a game of hide and seek, you have to find who's it. If you can't find 'it", you don't have any clues.

No, my American husband and me, we don`t collect paper bags in the kitchen. Ok, I will give you the reason why. I`m afraid of cockroaches.

Personally I think it might be remenants from your life in Russian...but again. whatevs.
Most supermarkets in the states ask you for paper or plastic bags. Lots of people in the US utilise paper bags to store their newspapers for recycling. It is not an uncomming think at all for people to have brown grocery bags.

I also believe that using a brown grocery bag to carry money is a trope found in at least a few movies of the 1970's.

 

[tovarisch]

To Bunk

Taxes- to explain you that I live in the same country as you, more then 180 days a year, means permenantly. Therefore paying taxes here. Therefore i know nothing about brown paper bags collections in my country and I was doubting every family here collects grocery bags..
I never lived with one cockroach in my kitchen, in any country, that`s why I`m not tolerant to it. Russia nothing to do with my fear, just my lack of experience to have them around.

Killer(s) was missed because they were in the very far circles from the center. Investigation concentrated on the inner circles. 150 people investigated and tested- it`s one drop in the sea, considering all the posible connections: business, pageants, students, construction workers, and so on....

 

[Ausgirl]

I'm still firmly on the fence, so forgive me this two-sided POV... re the note.

I've always pondered whether the note was written by a person using big words to try to sound more educated than they were. Having heard/seen many people do this, as well as communicating with a lot of very well-educated people, it just struck me that the strange use of 'attache' and the misspellings could have been explained by the writer of the note wanting to appear more literate than they actually were.

Of course, this could have been deliberate - a well-educated person, mimicking a less-educated person to mask the fact they that were, indeed, well-educated...

The other thing that sticks in my mind ((*and I do NOT think the note was genuinely a ransom note, just to be clear* )) is the "adequate sized" attache case. I am not a wealthy person, and never have been. So when I imagine 100,000 in paper money all in one place, I imagine it to take a LOT more room than it actually does - because I don't know what 100,000 in cash even vaguely looks like. So this, along with the 'trope' style wording, made me wonder if the writer was also from a background of relative poverty and could not imagine what that amount of money actually looked like, how much room it would take up.

Flipside - same as above - someone who *was* wealthy and *did* have an idea of how much room that amount of money might take up *could* have mentioned the attache case at all in order to mimic a person from a background of relative poverty. Plus - why would anyone, even in a clearly fake ransom note, want to offer a suggestion as to the size of the attache case, I cannot fathom.

It just depends, I guess, on how machiavellian anyone thinks the writer of the note actually was.

 

[Chrishope]

I'm still firmly on the fence, so forgive me this two-sided POV... re the note.

I've always pondered whether the note was written by a person using big words to try to sound more educated than they were. Having heard/seen many people do this, as well as communicating with a lot of very well-educated people, it just struck me that the strange use of 'attache' and the misspellings could have been explained by the writer of the note wanting to appear more literate than they actually were.

Of course, this could have been deliberate - a well-educated person, mimicking a less-educated person to mask the fact they that were, indeed, well-educated...

The other thing that sticks in my mind ((*and I do NOT think the note was genuinely a ransom note, just to be clear* )) is the "adequate sized" attache case. I am not a wealthy person, and never have been. So when I imagine 100,000 in paper money all in one place, I imagine it to take a LOT more room than it actually does - because I don't know what 100,000 in cash even vaguely looks like. So this, along with the 'trope' style wording, made me wonder if the writer was also from a background of relative poverty and could not imagine what that amount of money actually looked like, how much room it would take up.

Flipside - same as above - someone who *was* wealthy and *did* have an idea of how much room that amount of money might take up *could* have mentioned the attache case at all in order to mimic a person from a background of relative poverty. Plus - why would anyone, even in a clearly fake ransom note, want to offer a suggestion as to the size of the attache case, I cannot fathom.

It just depends, I guess, on how machiavellian anyone thinks the writer of the note actually was.

Some interesting observations. May I suggest that your first question will just lead you around in circles? Is it an educated person trying to appear as a dummy or vice versa? You can find "evidence" for either view. The best thing to do is realize it's a question that can't help solve the case.

On your second observation, I'm not sure even people of JR's wealth know how much room $100,000 takes up. JR wouldn't ordinarily be dealing with cash in that amount, he'd use cashier's checks.

These are the types of questions that will lead you astray if you decide on a definite answer. The are interesting, and occur to all of us.

 

[tovarisch]

I'm still firmly on the fence, so forgive me this two-sided POV... re the note.

I've always pondered whether the note was written by a person using big words to try to sound more educated than they were.

I totaly agree. More to this, they wanted to sound adults, who knew things, but they were not.


The other thing that sticks in my mind ((*and I do NOT think the note was genuinely a ransom note, just to be clear* )) is the "adequate sized" attache case. I am not a wealthy person, and never have been. So when I imagine 100,000 in paper money all in one place, I imagine it to take a LOT more room than it actually does - because I don't know what 100,000 in cash even vaguely looks like. So this, along with the 'trope' style wording, made me wonder if the writer was also from a background of relative poverty and could not imagine what that amount of money actually looked like, how much room it would take up.

It`s easy to imagine, it`s just 28 small notebooks, pocket size each. It would fit in any attache, and word "adequate size attache" is not adequate at all. Like anything else in the ransom. They wanted to throw in their smartness, like they saw big money every day of their lifes. Like they were fat cats also. And they failed .

 

[Ausgirl]

May I suggest that your first question will just lead you around in circles?
The best thing to do is realize it's a question that can't help solve the case.
These are the types of questions that will lead you astray if you decide on a definite answer. The are interesting, and occur to all of us.

Sorry, are you saying that everything I posted there was utterly pointless?

This is why I don't usually touch this Ramsey forum with a 10 foot pole.

 

[lawstudent]

The other thing that sticks in my mind ((*and I do NOT think the note was genuinely a ransom note, just to be clear* )) is the "adequate sized" attache case. I am not a wealthy person, and never have been. So when I imagine 100,000 in paper money all in one place, I imagine it to take a LOT more room than it actually does - because I don't know what 100,000 in cash even vaguely looks like. So this, along with the 'trope' style wording, made me wonder if the writer was also from a background of relative poverty and could not imagine what that amount of money actually looked like, how much room it would take up.

It`s easy to imagine, it`s just 28 small notebooks, pocket size each. It would fit in any attache, and word "adequate size attache" is not adequate at all. Like anything else in the ransom. They wanted to throw in their smartness, like they saw big money every day of their lifes. Like they were fat cats also. And they failed .

I think you've made really good points regarding word choice, and your perspective as a non-native speaker is very helpful in that. I work in verbal tutoring, so I pay attention to that stuff without even thinking about it. I agree it doesn't sound like someone who knows what that much money is going to look like or how it would be carried. I don't necessarily think it means they are poor, though. Most people, even pretty wealthy people, don't carry around 100k in cash at once. The people most likely to have exposure would be those who own their own businesses and have to collect and bundle the cash for deposit, and their close employees. One interesting thing that I now note is that normally, a ransom demand would include instructions as to the denomination of the bills and how they would be packaged for easy counting. I do not believe this was an actual ransom demand, though, so that's a whole different issue. But it's definitely not someone who is super bright.

 

[chlban]

To Bunk

Taxes- to explain you that I live in the same country as you, more then 180 days a year, means permenantly. Therefore paying taxes here. Therefore i know nothing about brown paper bags collections in my country and I was doubting every family here collects grocery bags..
I never lived with one cockroach in my kitchen, in any country, that`s why I`m not tolerant to it. Russia nothing to do with my fear, just my lack of experience to have them around.

Killer(s) was missed because they were in the very far circles from the center. Investigation concentrated on the inner circles. 150 people investigated and tested- it`s one drop in the sea, considering all the posible connections: business, pageants, students, construction workers, and so on....

Not every family in the US collects paper bags now. However, The Bunks comment was correct in that in 1996 many of us still were. I rarely have a brown paper bag in my house anymore, although when I get one I do save it,
but in 1996? We had a whole bunch of them in a cupboard above our Oven. It was quite common back then.

 

[tovarisch]

Not every family in the US collects paper bags now. However, The Bunks comment was correct in that in 1996 many of us still were. I rarely have a brown paper bag in my house anymore, although when I get one I do save it,
but in 1996? We had a whole bunch of them in a cupboard above our Oven. It was quite common back then.

The fight for if Ramseys had brown paper bags or not is over, because it diverts from the questions I put on the table. I give up and admit that they might had the bags.
The questions still remains the same, to RDI people:
1. Why would Ramseys put brown paper bag with the rope into JAR bedroom?
2. Why would Ramseys direct Mr. Ramsey in the ransom to switch adequate size attaché to brown paper bag after the bank?
3. Why Ramseys took brown paper bag to JB`s room on the night of the murder?
“Further, small pieces of the material on this brown sack were found in the "vacuuming" of JonBenet's bed and in the body bag that was used to transport her body (SMF P 181; PSMF P 181), thereby suggesting that either the bag had been near JonBenet or that someone who had touched the bag had also touched JonBenet." (Carnes 2003:93-94).

Please, anybody, give any scenario you have in mind for the sake of discussion between IDI and RDI going in the direction of solving unanswered puzzles.

 

[THE BUNK]

1. Why would Ramseys put brown paper bag with the rope into JAR bedroom?

To give the impression that the rope did not belong to them. They certainly couldn't put it back in it's original place.

2. Why would Ramseys direct Mr. Ramsey in the ransom to switch adequate size attaché to brown paper bag after the bank?

To give themselves the option of using either. Perhaps Jon Benet's body would go in attache case and the ransom money would be in the bag.

Another more devious idea might have been to someone give the impression they stiffed the "kidnappers' on the ransom amount. Think about it. What if some of the money is in an attache case , but the rest was in the bag. If the "kidnappers" for some reason only got the attache cache, they would have been short the ransom money. Being short on the Ransom would give all the excuse to murder JonBenet.

Probably the more likely scenario is that the Ramsey's had no idea how much space $118,000 would require. They probably just put in the bag as a precaution.

3. Why Ramseys took brown paper bag to JB`s room on the night of the murder?

Probably just dropped the bag with the rope while they were thinking things over in JB's room. I'm pretty sure they wanted to check to see if there was any evidence they needed to look at (like perhaps blood on the floor or the bed). Then they removed it to tend to other business. Nothing mysterious.

Please, anybody, give any scenario you have in mind for the sake of discussion between IDI and RDI going in the direction of solving unanswered puzzles.

Sure. But an important distinction needs to be made here. This case is really only an unanswered puzzle from the IDI side. From an RDI side, they already have their suspects.

 

[tovarisch]

I think you've made really good points regarding word choice, and your perspective as a non-native speaker is very helpful in that. I work in verbal tutoring, so I pay attention to that stuff without even thinking about it. I agree it doesn't sound like someone who knows what that much money is going to look like or how it would be carried. I don't necessarily think it means they are poor, though. Most people, even pretty wealthy people, don't carry around 100k in cash at once. The people most likely to have exposure would be those who own their own businesses and have to collect and bundle the cash for deposit, and their close employees. One interesting thing that I now note is that normally, a ransom demand would include instructions as to the denomination of the bills and how they would be packaged for easy counting. I do not believe this was an actual ransom demand, though, so that's a whole different issue. But it's definitely not someone who is super bright.

To Lawstudent
I rely on your knowledge of foreign student’s use of English as a second language. I hope that one day we can come from both sides to decide if the ransom was written by native speaker or not.

From my point of view on the ransom, I cannot explain that but I “hear” foreign accent in it. Too much stamps. People say here, or no, it`s a common English saying, it`s alright.
I would say that grammatically it`s almost fine, seams that they learned it seriously, but from the point of constructing the thoughts, it`s seems to me too primitive, not easy flowing speech of a contemporary American, too much of common sayings, like old grandmother`s referring to the old common sayings all the time.

Also, the word attaché. Other than attaché` case, it’s also a person. What came to my mind, if you foreigner and deal all the time with embassy for visas, passports, the word attaché (as a person) is part of the language. For example, for me the word attaché as a person- like for you as a counsel. The attaché as a briefcase is also not uncommon in my language, just as example of foreign language, no way I`m directing here, no way. Just an example , if I want to mock somebody, I would say to somebody -Don`t forget to take your attaché, it would imply I’m joking at the size of his briefcase or at the person, how important he looks.

From Wikipedia:
. Since administrative and technical staff benefit from only limited diplomatic immunity, some countries may routinely appoint support staff as attachés.

 

[tovarisch]

To give the impression that the rope did not belong to them. They certainly couldn't put it back in it's original place.

You, mean, The BUNK, they purchased the rope ahead of the crime to make the impression it did not belong to them? If they did not purchase, why they took it out of garage or something? If so, why they LEFT it on the JAR bed?


To give themselves the option of using either. Perhaps Jon Benet's body would go in attache case and the ransom money would be in the bag.

Wait, the BUNK, the attache case it is a business briefcase, for documents. The body will go there ??

Another more devious idea might have been to someone give the impression they stiffed the "kidnappers' on the ransom amount. Think about it. What if some of the money is in an attache case , but the rest was in the bag. If the "kidnappers" for some reason only got the attache cache, they would have been short the ransom money. Being short on the Ransom would give all the excuse to murder JonBenet.

The kidneppers got only attache case and been short on money ? Wait, wait, wait... You say there WERE the kidnappers whom Mr. Ramsey would take money to ?

Probably the more likely scenario is that the Ramsey's had no idea how much space $118,000 would require. They probably just put in the bag as a precaution.



Probably just dropped the bag with the rope while they were thinking things over in JB's room. I'm pretty sure they wanted to check to see if there was any evidence they needed to look at (like perhaps blood on the floor or the bed). Then they removed it to tend to other business. Nothing mysterious.

Very mysterious, the Bunk. The particles were on the JB`s body too. And body was in the basement. It means... the bag was there in the moment of killing...



Sure. But an important distinction needs to be made here. This case is really only an unanswered puzzle from the IDI side. From an RDI side, they already have their suspects.

No, you have not. Otherwise, you would not be here on this web. And it`s good that you are here. We are doing the same thing together.

 

[tovarisch]

Opps, I`m sorry, my answeres got in the the BUNK quote ! Exept the last one.
Because, the BUNK realy surprised me !

 

[Linda7NJ]

Sorry in advance...
What is this paperbag / cockroach thing of which you speak????
I've never lived with a cockroach, I'd likely burn my house down if one moved in!
What do paperbags have to do with cockroaches? I don't have any bags at the moment...I need to know because I do get them on occasion ....
Thank you...


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[gramcracker]

cucarachas love paper. some like to eat it, some like to use it for a litter box. I lost all of my cookbooks when I lived in Phoenix: opened the cupboard where they were lined up and encountered a nest of roaches. hadn't seen/heard them anywhere else. one of the first things I was told when I moved to PHX was to not save paper grocery bags because they're roach magnets

when I stayed at a friend's apt I walked around with a hammer because I'd see them skittering away when I walked into the next room. my aim got so good! one time I smashed the biggest spider I'd ever seen, but it was a tarantula. cockroaches are prehistoric creatures, from the days of the dinosaurs. they were here before humans and they'll be here after humans. the best roach repellent? leave one mangled body in sight and they'll disappear for a few days. oh, and there are also flying cockroaches in PHX - about the size of a Baby Ruth bar. (I no longer live in the desert)

 

[tovarisch]

Sorry in advance...
What is this paperbag / cockroach thing of which you speak????
I've never lived with a cockroach, I'd likely burn my house down if one moved in!
What do paperbags have to do with cockroaches? I don't have any bags at the moment...I need to know because I do get them on occasion ....
Thank you...



I`ve thought the cockroaches topic was over!

Ok, here is my theory, take it or throw it. I have fear of cockroaches. I have researched many-many years ago for prevention purposes. The article said that to live happily and ideally in the house roaches need three things- food, water and unmovable stack of paper at one place. They prefer to bread in the paper if available. That`s it.

Now, I want to tell real life anecdote that happen to me last summer. If you afraid of roaches as I`m you need to read it.

My husband and I decided to live frugally accordingly with the present day’s crisis. Last hot summer our refrigerator died. Husband said- Craig list is the answer! And he immediately jumped to the computer. I was very doubting about buying an old fridge. I said I want new one. He said – Remember? We live frugally now. He promised he would found almost new. He did, the price was adorably low and it said “almost new”, 2 split doors. We called; they came half an hour later. Took out fridge from their truck, put down on our drive way and proudly opened both doors. And… hundreds, hundreds of black roaches run out of it, like crazy. I screamed terribly...The sellers said- O, we did not know it, it`s our grandmother`s. I run quicker than roaches to the house, grabbed 30 bucks from the counter, where we prepared money for them, run back and begged- Please, here is 30 bucks, please take out of here in a second, in a second, please……
I spend hour to wash our drive way with the hose and almost one month I was paranoid, looking at every corner of the house. But the funniest thing was when my husband knew I paid them to take fridge away ASAP, $30 bucks. He became mad, really mad at me. He said- I know what business we need to start. We need to find fridge full of roaches and start selling it to people like you, and they will pay us $30/ every half-hour to take it away ASAP, we can do two trips an hour ! $60 /hour, he screamed - I will take $60/hour! I want this business!
We bought brand new fridge from Sears.

 

[Linda7NJ]

cucarachas love paper. some like to eat it, some like to use it for a litter box. I lost all of my cookbooks when I lived in Phoenix: opened the cupboard where they were lined up and encountered a nest of roaches. hadn't seen/heard them anywhere else. one of the first things I was told when I moved to PHX was to not save paper grocery bags because they're roach magnets

when I stayed at a friend's apt I walked around with a hammer because I'd see them skittering away when I walked into the next room. my aim got so good! one time I smashed the biggest spider I'd ever seen, but it was a tarantula. cockroaches are prehistoric creatures, from the days of the dinosaurs. they were here before humans and they'll be here after humans. the best roach repellent? leave one mangled body in sight and they'll disappear for a few days. oh, and there are also flying cockroaches in PHX - about the size of a Baby Ruth bar. (I no longer live in the desert)

I will add that to my long list of reasons to stay out of AZ.
Right next to scorpions, the temperature, and the sand storms!

Shiver!

Been to Florida a few times, they give flying cockroaches a cute little name...doesn't change the fact that they're a giant flying cockroach!!!

I had my hands full with those super tiny little black ants a few years ago...let's just say, I won!!!


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[Linda7NJ]

Sorry in advance...
What is this paperbag / cockroach thing of which you speak????
I've never lived with a cockroach, I'd likely burn my house down if one moved in!
What do paperbags have to do with cockroaches? I don't have any bags at the moment...I need to know because I do get them on occasion ....
Thank you...



I`ve thought the cockroaches topic was over!

Ok, here is my theory, take it or throw it. I have fear of cockroaches. I have researched many-many years ago for prevention purposes. The article said that to live happily and ideally in the house roaches need three things- food, water and unmovable stack of paper at one place. They prefer to bread in the paper if available. That`s it.

Now, I want to tell real life anecdote that happen to me last summer. If you afraid of roaches as I`m you need to read it.

My husband and I decided to live frugally accordingly with the present day’s crisis. Last hot summer our refrigerator died. Husband said- Craig list is the answer! And he immediately jumped to the computer. I was very doubting about buying an old fridge. I said I want new one. He said – Remember? We live frugally now. He promised he would found almost new. He did, the price was adorably low and it said “almost new”, 2 split doors. We called; they came half an hour later. Took out fridge from their truck, put down on our drive way and proudly opened both doors. And… hundreds, hundreds of black roaches run out of it, like crazy. I screamed terribly...The sellers said- O, we did not know it, it`s our grandmother`s. I run quicker than roaches to the house, grabbed 30 bucks from the counter, where we prepared money for them, run back and begged- Please, here is 30 bucks, please take out of here in a second, in a second, please……
I spend hour to wash our drive way with the hose and almost one month I was paranoid, looking at every corner of the house. But the funniest thing was when my husband knew I paid them to take fridge away ASAP, $30 bucks. He became mad, really mad at me. He said- I know what business we need to start. We need to find fridge full of roaches and start selling it to people like you, and they will pay us $30/ every half-hour to take it away ASAP, we can do two trips an hour ! $60 /hour, he screamed - I will take $60/hour! I want this business!
We bought brand new fridge from Sears.

Many many years ago I worked for child protective services. I had a few houses that I had to visit that were absolutely infested. Crawling everywhere.... I would never sit, and while standing, I would keep picking up me feet while pretending to shift my weight. I would imagine them crawling up my legs...

I always kept a complete change of clothes in my trunk, a garbage bag, and a can of Raid Roach killer.
I'd take my clothes off in the bathroom of the nearest place of business. Throw them in the garbage bag, spray the Raid and close it up real right and knot it twice. take them days later to a laundry mat and wash them twice.

I was like you, terrified of bringing them HOME!!!




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[Chelly]

I am getting concerned. Does this mean my book collection is cockroach bate? What about my supply of gift wrap? I buy toilet paper and paper towels in bulk and store then in a closet. Have I set myself up for a roach invasion?:gaah::gaah: