Is Anybody In Charge of Portugal?

[SleuthMom]

what happens if the evidence is flawed - as some people have being saying -

Gord, sweety, the thing is if we are not going to believe the Police..who would we believe? I know the PJ like any other police in the world are not perfect but I do trust that they are doing the best they can. We have very little choice here really.

they seem to be putting all their eggs into one basket - which to some might mean they have very strong 100% case - but if they are wrong

Well, it seems to be they have evidence that leads back to the parents...they cannot ignore that. It would be very irresponsible if they did.

When Maddie went missing, the abduction theory was from day 1...they did not suspect the parents, they even caught Murrat. BUT when the abduction theory was NOT holding up and the BRITISH police made that manifested, it was THEN when the cadaver dogs were brought, etc etc etc. It was THEN, based on those findings that the police believes the Mc Cann are hiding something. It may not be enough to charge them, fair enough, but the evidence is leading to them. Sad but true.

 

[gord]

Gord, sweety, the thing is if we are not going to believe the Police..who would we believe? I know the PJ like any other police in the world are not perfect but I do trust that they are doing the best they can. We have very little choice here really.



Well, it seems to be they have evidence that leads back to the parents...they cannot ignore that. It would be very irresponsible if they did.
.

we look at other commentators - experts in the field of DNA , we see what they say , we look for other experienced officers from other countrys who have had experience in child abductions , we can do a lot of things - Some people have gone to portugal to see for themselves .

The two key bits of evidence here are the cadaver scent and the DNA evidence .

I think there is anough doubt about the reliablity of cadaver dogs to get it right 100% of the time that although a pointer - would not be something that could prosecute .

So all rests on the DNA - it has now been 5 months - the Judge has had the case from the police for almost a month - and now the chief guy gets canned ?

we do seem to be going round in circles a lot - we need the Mccaans to either be charged or not

 

[SleuthMom]

we look at other commentators - experts in the field of DNA , we see what they say , we look for other experienced officers from other countrys who have had experience in child abductions , we can do a lot of things - Some people have gone to portugal to see for themselves .

Well, the PJ is not working alone...let's not forget that. The British police is also working on the case and the one that suggested that the whole abduction theory was basically bologna.

The two key bits of evidence here are the cadaver scent and the DNA evidence .

I think the key is the DNA evidence, I don't think any judge will take the dog's scent as evidence without a body. Do we have cases where they did? I do not think so, maybe someone can tell us.

So all rests on the DNA - it has now been 5 months - the Judge has had the case from the police for almost a month - and now the chief guy gets canned ?

we do seem to be going round in circles a lot - we need the Mccaans to either be charged or not

I am not in a rush to charge them at all, it would be unfair if there is not enough evidence to do so. I say let's wait for the test labs and see what we get. They can remain as arguidos for 8 months and the police can extend it to another 4 months. At the mean time, continue the investigations.

 

[Rino]

I thought they had followed lots of leads - Murat and all the sightings in other countries.

If the other "leads" don't lead anywhere except back to the parents, then what is a police force to do?

They have. But there will always be some shill who wants to be in the spot light or gets paid or feels the ends justify the means to claim otherwise.

 

[april4sky]

If you think that just because Amaral is gone, the other officers will cease investigating the Mc Canns or seeing them as the responsible for Madeleine's death you are keeping your hopes way too high in my opinion. It is not only Amaral who thinks the parents are involved.

Never said that never thought that. So why you would throw that at me I don't know.

I don't have, and never have had an objection to the McCanns being investigated. Its only right and proper that they are investigated and I have said that many times before.
I would just like to see this case investigated in a professional manner, which it so clearly hasn't been up to now. IMO
I also know it still might not happen...But I think there was zero chance with Amaral in charge...Only time will tell.

What we do know is they have had the very "suspect" Detective, the now sacked lead detective Amaral working on Madeleines case. Even though he himself has been charged with a serious crime involving the mother of another missing child.
Never mind all the admitted leaks to the press of wild rumours, inuendo and smears from the PLE.
Yes it does concern me. Absolutely!!

As I said any cop in the UK charged with a crime would have been suspended "on full pay" until his case was resolved.
Would a cop in the US be allowed to carry on working after being charged with a serious crime?

 

[gord]

to sleuthmom

question for you - if you can put the Mccaans to one side - do you think that there is any chance she could have been abducted - not so much by trafficers - but a planned abduction by one or two men - either to order or for themselves - paedophiles who stalk certain areas .

I would be interested to know if you think that this could be a scenario

 

[SleuthMom]

Never said that never thought that. So why you would throw that at me I don't know.

Honey, I did not throw anything at you. My statement was based on yours "Thank God" as like things would change because Amaral is gone. You seem to take posts quite in a personal way so I would take that in consideration next time I reply.

I don't have, and never have had an objection to the McCanns being investigated. Its only right and proper that they are investigated and I have said that many times before.
I would just like to see this case investigated in a professional manner, which it so clearly hasn't been up to now. IMO

Okay, in what professional manner you think it should be investigated?

 

[SleuthMom]

to sleuthmom

question for you - if you can put the Mccaans to one side - do you think that there is any chance she could have been abducted - not so much by trafficers - but a planned abduction by one or two men - either to order or for themselves - paedophiles who stalk certain areas .

I would be interested to know if you think that this could be a scenario

Of course she could have been abducted taking in consideration the many times she was left alone in that apartment. Not so sure about a "planned" abduction though. Nevertheless, so far, no real *evidence* of an abduction has ever been found and based on the times Maddie was checked (believing the parents are not lying) there is no possible way she could have been abducted without nobody noticing anything. Someone is lying.

 

[gord]

Of course she could have been abducted taking in consideration the many times she was left alone in that apartment. Not so sure about a "planned" abduction though. Nevertheless, so far, no real *evidence* of an abduction has ever been found and based on the times Maddie was checked (believing the parents are not lying) there is no possible way she could have been abducted without nobody noticing anything. Someone is lying.

OK I am interested why you think that she could not have beed abducted without someone knowing

There is no real evidence because for one the scene of crime was not taped off until the next day - everyone from the staff to the rest of the group went back and forward .

There was also the evidence of Tanner who said she saw someone carrying what looked like a child - why could this not be true ?

someone could easily have slipped into the villa just after the last visit - someone who knew they were checking once every 30 mins - In and out very quick - pick up a sleeping child and then dissapear into the shadows into a car and then they could be 20 miles away before she was even discovered missing - 40 miles away before the police were even called

There would have been no witnesses as most of the group were at the tapas - it was dark - a car blends in with the rest - it is possible no ? It could have happened that way - doesnt take a great deal of stretching .

we know the police did not seal any borders - probably impossible anyway - they did not put out any road blocks , nor try and seal down the area

 

[SleuthMom]

OK I am interested why you think that she could not have beed abducted without someone knowing

As I said because of the time the Mc Canns gave it makes it almost impossible.

There was also the evidence of Tanner who said she saw someone carrying what looked like a child - why could this not be true ?

If I am not mistaken, Tanner did not disclose this information but days after the "alleged" abduction. Fishy. Second, another Tapas friend was almost at the same time in the same location and did not see anything or anybody. Does not sound right. Plus, think about Tanner and the Mc Canns for a minute...they are FRIENDS. IF what Tanner said is true and she saw Murrat taking Maddie (she identified him as the person, not sure if she backed off that statement though) wouldn't the Mc Canns be going nuts about investigating Murrat?? But no, they are searching for her in Morocco and other unusual places, it is just so odd.

someone could easily have slipped into the villa just after the last visit - someone who knew they were checking once every 30 mins - In and out very quick - pick up a sleeping child and then dissapear into the shadows into a car and then they could be 20 miles away before she was even discovered missing - 40 miles away before the police were even called

And absolutely no cameras, no staff, NO ONE saw anything??? Hmmm not sure, not sure. I don't think so.

 

[PharmSleuth]

gord,
I know you asked someone else this question and I know there is a lot of contradictory stuff in the press, but all of us must choose what we want to believe and what we don't want to believe. You state with such certainty that the apartment was not taped off until the next day. Colomom cited a Portuguese link:
in Diario de Noticias:

http://tinyurl.com/22lreg

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com... 86581&page=2 post #23 (my bolding)

in it it says "As DN could find out, right after Gerard and Kate McCann detected the disappearance of Madeleine, around 9.30 pm, over 20 persons entered the room, between friends and family who were there on vacation with the couple and their children, and also many tourists and resort employees, who, out of natural worry and anxiety, searched everywhere for the british child, rummaging beds, cupboards and other furniture, opening and closing doors and windows.

Although the appartment was immediately sealed that night by the authorities, this situation ended up eliminating possible traces of the passage of the person who took the british girl from the appartment."

Other sources that are linked in the media links at WS talk about these 20 people being there before police arrived.

Now, According to Jane Tanner (my bolding):
http://www.geocities.com/hallsofmirrors/SOL.html
Sol July 11th

“Jane Tanner is one of the key witnesses of the process, given the fact that she claims to have seen a man carrying a child, during one of her trips to the apartments to check on the children.

The english woman states she saw a man aged 35-40, with dark hair, wearing beige trousers, a dark jacket and classic black shoes, carrying a girl, who was wearing a pyjama and was barefoot.”

and Gerry McCann (my bolding)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...tml?in_article_id=483026&in_page_id=1811&ct=5
Gerry McCann says he is convinced that, when he checked on Madeleine at 9.05pm on the evening she disappeared, the abductor was somewhere inside the ground-floor flat. He thinks that the intruder - who would have entered the flat through an unlocked patio door - would have pounced almost immediately after he left.It would have taken seconds to scoop up the little girl and escape through a bedroom window."

This person with beige trousers and a dark jacket would have left the apartment through a window carrying a child. Besides being able to balance her without awakening her and not falling over as he passes through a window,how could he have left no beige or dark fibers on that windowsill?? :snooty:

You would have to believe that one of those 20 people wiped the windowsill off leaving no fiber trace or Jane is wrong or Gerry is wrong.Someone is wrong. None of us know who is wrong at this point.Isn't that why we continue to discuss and present our views?

 

[AfterMidnight]

to sleuthmom

question for you - if you can put the Mccaans to one side - do you think that there is any chance she could have been abducted - not so much by trafficers - but a planned abduction by one or two men - either to order or for themselves - paedophiles who stalk certain areas .

I would be interested to know if you think that this could be a scenario

Yes, I believe Madeleine could have been abducted, but I toy with the idea she was used as "bait" for a pedophile ring/or lone pedophile, and something went very wrong.

That's the only scenerio I can come up with that seems to fit all the quasi-facts in this case, including the man hiding in the stairwell and Kate's initial statements (if they're true).

 

[wtsn5]

As I said because of the time the Mc Canns gave it makes it almost impossible.


If I am not mistaken, Tanner did not disclose this information but days after the "alleged" abduction. Fishy. Second, another Tapas friend was almost at the same time in the same location and did not see anything or anybody. Does not sound right. Plus, think about Tanner and the Mc Canns for a minute...they are FRIENDS. IF what Tanner said is true and she saw Murrat taking Maddie (she identified him as the person, not sure if she backed off that statement though) wouldn't the Mc Canns be going nuts about investigating Murrat?? But no, they are searching for her in Morocco and other unusual places, it is just so odd.



And absolutely no cameras, no staff, NO ONE saw anything??? Hmmm not sure, not sure. I don't think so.

I have bolded the part I would like to discuss. Somewhere on this message board there was an article that Jane Tanner did tell the police that night she saw someone - she didn't tell the McCanns until a few days later. I will go searching for this info - not sure when I can get to it but I do remember reading that any one else remember that.

 

[CaliKid]

This is the quote from a retired Detective of 38 years iwho visited the area and knows a bit about policing

"There is now NO detective work being carried out by Portuguese police to link anyone other than the McCanns to Maddie's disappearance. Officially, they say they're continuing the search for an abductor. But their policy is now to only respond to sightings reported to them by Europol and Interpol.

The officers leading the investigation are pinning their hopes on the DNA evidence, getting some sort of confession from the McCanns or their friends, or finding Madeleine's body.

They remain convinced of her parents' guilt, apparently unwilling to consider another scenario, even as their "house of cards" case collapses around them. Another fresh revelation that undermines the Portuguese effort is that police also failed to take DNA samples from Madeleine's little brother Sean, two, and his twin sister, Amelie, until their parents were made "arguidos", or suspects, just over two weeks ago. This failure has seriously undermined the whole forensic case against the McCanns. It means early forensic work is flawed and needs to be re-examined. A process that could take months.

Evidence gathered by the Portuguese police against the McCanns which we have learned about in the past couple of weeks depends entirely on forensic tests, including DNA evidence, so-called bodily fluids and hair. Yet I have found that evidence has been fatally flawed through their own incompetence. The apartment was also not sealed off properly, meaning any evidence was contaminated from the outset."


Now treat it as cautious as you want - maybe it is all rubbish - but to me it ties in with a lot what went on in Porugal and maybe one of the reasons the chief officer has been fired

If the PJ already ruled out (in their minds) that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger who sneaked into the apartment and took her, why would they waste time and money investigating this theory? If evidence, which we may not even know about, leads them in to believe that the parents killed her, that is the conclusion they are going to investigate.

 

[SleuthMom]

I have bolded the part I would like to discuss. Somewhere on this message board there was an article that Jane Tanner did tell the police that night she saw someone - she didn't tell the McCanns until a few days later. I will go searching for this info - not sure when I can get to it but I do remember reading that any one else remember that.

Okay, if is true, I stand corrected.I do not recall exactly what Tanner said, what I did find odd is that she is the only one who claims saw something yet her testimony for some reason was not very strong.

 

[april4sky]

Honey, I did not throw anything at you. My statement was based on yours "Thank God" as like things would change because Amaral is gone. You seem to take posts quite in a personal way so I would take that in consideration next time I reply.



Okay, in what professional manner you think it should be investigated?

No problem

The "Thank God" was because they no longer have a cop leading the investigation when he himself has been charged with a very serious crime.
That in itself was very unprofessional.

As well as the fact that from the outset the PLE failed to secure and fully investigate the crime scene.
In fact it was many weeks before they asked for help from UK experts and the apartment was finally investigated.
Not securing and investigating a crime scene is also very unprofessional.
I don't believe either of these would happen in the UK, or I assume in the US.

 

[SleuthMom]

If the PJ already ruled out (in their minds) that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger who sneaked into the apartment and took her, why would they waste time and money investigating this theory? If evidence, which we may not even know about, leads them in to believe that the parents killed her, that is the conclusion they are going to investigate.

Exactly. Common sense to me.

 

[wtsn5]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1847879.ece


Okay here is one of the articles that mentioned when Jane Tanner reported this to the police. But there is another one on this site that states not telling the McCanns that night.

 

[AfterMidnight]

If the PJ already ruled out (in their minds) that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger who sneaked into the apartment and took her, why would they waste time and money investigating this theory? If evidence, which we may not even know about, leads them in to believe that the parents killed her, that is the conclusion they are going to investigate.

Is that how an investigation is carried out in Portugal - in the minds of PLE? Well, I guess that would save the expense of actually having to dig up facts. Add seeding the media with supposed information and the PLE can sit on their butts and think all day. Wonder if they can think up a cure for cancer?

 

[SleuthMom]

No problem

The "Thank God" was because they no longer have a cop leading the investigation when he himself has been charged with a very serious crime.
That in itself was very unprofessional.

I actually agree although I do not think that was the reason for his dismissal. He has a big mouth (I read his statements), he sounded frustrated (which I think somewhat is understandable).

As well as the fact that from the outset the PLE failed to secure and fully investigate the crime scene.
In fact it was many weeks before they asked for help from UK experts and the apartment was finally investigated.

But isn't interesting that after the British police comes to help and finds that there is no evidence of an abduction they decide to come with cadaver dogs, etc and the investigation shifts to the parents? The reason I say this is because the PJ gets so much criticism but it wasn't them with the theory of the parent's involvement, it was when the abduction one did not held up that other things were put into place and based on those findings, the parents were made arguidos.