Italy - Sailing yacht sank off Italian coast, 15 rescued, 7 missing, 19 August 2024

[Dotta]

Crew. Were All Fluent in a Common Language? Language Barrier?

@RedHaus Thanks for your post w listing of crew members' ages, good point.

My title pretty much says it. Even in a crisis where everyone is fluent in a shared language, it's easy for miscommunications to happen.
Did all the crew members speak a common language?

Is it reasonable to guess, w a Kiwi captain & British passengers/guests (were some from other countries?) that it would be English? IDK.

Despite some crew hailing from Myanmar,* Ireland,** France,*** The Netherlands,**** it's possible they all spoke English fluently.

Also what about language of WEATHER REPORTS? Broadcast? Online? Or ?

Regardless, even if weather was the only/primary direct cause, circumstances would have been ripe for miscommunication.
What a tragedy.


____________________________
Languages, per wiki
* Official = Burmese.
** English, Irish, & Ulster Scots dialect.
*** Official = French.
**** Official = Dutch.

Crew of 8 different nationalities
Phew!

"The crew, some of whom were in their early 20s,
kept to themselves and often sat together at the resort’s bar or restaurant, reacting with a firm
'no comment'
every time a Times reporter approached them."

Captain of Sunken Yacht Under Investigation in Deaths on Ship

The investigation does not necessarily imply that formal charges will follow against the captain, James Cutfield.

www.nytimes.com

 

[branmuffin]

Crew. Were All Fluent in a Common Language? Language Barrier?

@RedHaus Thanks for your post w listing of crew members' ages, good point.

My title pretty much says it. Even in a crisis where everyone is fluent in a shared language, it's easy for miscommunications to happen.
Did all the crew members speak a common language?

Is it reasonable to guess, w a Kiwi captain & British passengers/guests (were some from other countries?) that it would be English? IDK.

Despite some crew hailing from Myanmar,* Ireland,** France,*** The Netherlands,**** it's possible they all spoke English fluently.

Also what about language of WEATHER REPORTS? Broadcast? Online? Or ?

Regardless, even if weather was the only/primary direct cause, circumstances would have been ripe for miscommunication.
What a tragedy.


____________________________
Languages, per wiki
* Official = Burmese.
** English, Irish, & Ulster Scots dialect.
*** Official = French.
**** Official = Dutch.

I think at least 8 of those crew members would be fluent in English. Many Germans and Dutch can speak English. South Africans can usually speak English as well as the obvious ones: New Zealander, Irish, English, Scottish. The French citizen with an English name probably spoke English. The deceased cook probably also spoke English since he was English/Antiguan. It would be insanity to have even one crew member on board who couldn't speak English, depending on what role they played. Not trying to throw shade on the owners of the ship, but I can say this as a fellow Brit, very few of us can speak a foreign language. And those that do, are usually bilingual because they come from immigrant families.

 

[SouthAussie]

Youth is the thing among professional sailors. Many of them start sailing when they are 8/9/10 years old. By the time they are 18 some of them are sailing professionally.
They need the young and agile to climb the mast to fix problems, to hang off the bow and fix problems.

A friend's son spends Aussie winters/European summers in professional yacht races all around Europe. Large boats contact him to ask him to be part of their crew. They get paid well.
He is now 36 and is considered an old-timer. But he has been sailing since he was very young, was sought out for his first big international yacht race when he was 18. He is very skilled, and language doesn't seem to be a barrier. They instinctively know what to do, what their position is, work well together, and many Europeans speak English.

imo

 

[Dotta]

Youth is the thing among professional sailors. Many of them start sailing when they are 8/9/10 years old. By the time they are 18 some of them are sailing professionally.
They need the young and agile to climb the mast to fix problems, to hang off the bow and fix problems.

A friend's son spends Aussie winters/European summers in professional yacht races all around Europe. Large boats contact him to ask him to be part of their crew. They get paid well.
He is now 36 and is considered an old-timer. But he has been sailing since he was very young, was sought out for his first big international yacht race when he was 18. He is very skilled, and language doesn't seem to be a barrier. They instinctively know what to do, what their position is, work well together, and many Europeans speak English.

imo

Well ...
They certainly are agile.
After all,
they managed to survive.

JMO

 

[RedHaus]

Youth is the thing among professional sailors. Many of them start sailing when they are 8/9/10 years old. By the time they are 18 some of them are sailing professionally. They need the young and agile to climb the mast to fix problems, to hang off the bow and fix problems

RSBM
Yes, @SouthAussie I can't disagree. I have experienced this myself on much smaller sailing yachts in the Caribbean. The crew - captain and cook / first mate - are often quite young, in their mid 20s or so, and very skilled.

But I guess my concern with this tragic situation is the experience such a young crew would have had with life and death high stress situations, with complex, urgent decision making and communication requirements? IMHO that comes with age, but that is a guess for me when it comes to maritime crises.

I've also read this magnificent yacht was very sophisticated with many electronic controls, even for the sailing systems and mechanisms. So I have to wonder - not knowing if I should - whether great analog sailing skills can easily translate to a more digital vessel?

So I welcome your further thoughts.

 

[al66pine]

Crew and Language?

I think at least 8 of those crew members would be fluent in English. Many Germans and Dutch can speak English. South Africans can usually speak English as well as the obvious ones: New Zealander, Irish, English, Scottish. The French citizen with an English name probably spoke English. The deceased cook probably also spoke English since he was English/Antiguan. It would be insanity to have even one crew member on board who couldn't speak English, depending on what role they played. Not trying to throw shade on the owners of the ship, but I can say this as a fellow Brit, very few of us can speak a foreign language. And those that do, are usually bilingual because they come from immigrant families.

@branmuffin Thanks for the post w your thoughts on the language issue.
Tend to agree.

Ooops. my earlier post overlooked crew member from South Africa.
Checked official languages there on wiki: Twelve of them, w English being one.

 

[SouthAussie]

RSBM
Yes, @SouthAussie I can't disagree. I have experienced this myself on much smaller sailing yachts in the Caribbean. The crew - captain and cook / first mate - are often quite young, in their mid 20s or so, and very skilled.

But I guess my concern with this tragic situation is the experience such a young crew would have had with life and death high stress situations, with complex, urgent decision making and communication requirements? IMHO that comes with age, but that is a guess for me when it comes to maritime crises.

I've also read this magnificent yacht was very sophisticated with many electronic controls, even for the sailing systems and mechanisms. So I have to wonder - not knowing if I should - whether great analog sailing skills can easily translate to a more digital vessel?

So I welcome your further thoughts.

The thing with sailing is that all of the sailors would have experienced many situations where their boat capsized/tipped/rolled due to the constant uncertainty of ocean waters. They would have learned how to personally get out of these situations and stay alive. And they try to help others as a team. Loss of life at sea shakes all sailors up. They mourn it greatly. imo

The responsibility falls on the captain, because at 51 years old he was leading the team. I don't know when he became injured - but it seems evident (from reading sailing forums about this tragedy) that they all would have been on-deck battling the storm when the boat rolled. Whether or not they could hear each other yelling instructions over the loudness of the storm is another thing.

 

[Luna20]

Though I know little about boats, I strongly suspect that the investigation is going to uncover evidence of the following attitudes:

1- This is a super yacht. Overloaded migrant ships are known to sink in the Mediterrenean. Super yachts do not sink. If you dont believe this, just start googling.

2- The super yacht has automated everything. The cockpit resembles a high tech airplane with Italian design flair. We have gotten very used to letting the auto pilot do almost everything. Saves us having to learn skills and allows for more relaxation.

3- If we see something amiss, we presume that the captain must have everything into consideration- and made the right choice. After all, they are a captain and captains make right choices, or they would not be captains- right? So.... no need to speak up.

Our safety check list? Start with attitude one, then work down to attitude three. So far, its worked every time.

In my inexperienced view I personally would not consider it to be a super yacht. Regardless of reports and documentation stating otherwise, I would prefer a real super duper one.

A few weeks ago we saw the boat that a whale breached. In that case the whale was much larger than the boat. That has always been enough to keep me from any water craft that isn’t a super sized yacht. I also didn’t go far from the beach into the ocean because of sharks so maybe I’m overly cautious.

There are a few important rules to keep you safe on water:

- Never stay below deck in case of weather deterioration

- Be sure to check the weather forecast and watch the sky

- Moor in places sheltered from the wind

- Thoroughly check the equipment

- Everyone on board should learn what to do in the event of serious trouble
(to avoid the likelihood of panic on board)

- Before setting off,
everyone should know where the life-saving equipment and first aid kit are located and
who is responsible for safety on the yacht

- If the wind is above 3 on the Beaufort scale,
then life jackets should be worn.
On small and unstable yachts, it is recommended to wear life jackets regardless of the wind force.

These are rules my Dad (an avid sailor) taught me when I was a teen.

I never liked sailing
But...
I loved singing Sea Shanties

“Never stay below deck…”

Would that be whoever is manning the post to protect the ones below deck?

 

[bmacmillan1]

The sinking of Mike Lynch's super yacht adds to questions about Autonomy and Darktrace he wanted to put behind him

The sudden deaths of 7 aboard the $25 million Bayesian have brought the complicated career of the ‘British Bill Gates’ to the fore.

fortune.com

 

[Dotta]

"Bayesian ​

will be raised from seabed​

after 18,000 litres of fuel are removed from its tank ​

in operation taking several weeks ​

under plans presented by doomed yacht's management firm."​

Bayesian will be raised after 18,000 litres of fuel are removed

The 184ft yacht sank off the coast of Sicily last Monday, killing British tech billionaire Mike Lynch, his 18-year-old daughter Hannah and five others.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[branmuffin]

In my inexperienced view I personally would not consider it to be a super yacht. Regardless of reports and documentation stating otherwise, I would prefer a real super duper one.

A few weeks ago we saw the boat that a whale breached. In that case the whale was much larger than the boat. That has always been enough to keep me from any water craft that isn’t a super sized yacht. I also didn’t go far from the beach into the ocean because of sharks so maybe I’m overly cautious.




“Never stay below deck…”

Would that be whoever is manning the post to protect the ones below deck?

It's a superyacht because its length is in excess of 130 feet, it has the world's tallest mast, it cost more than 35 million pounds. It is unusual because as you can see by the image shown below, its design is based on the racing yachts you see in America's Cup, but has a luxurious interior space for over 20 people, combination of crew and passengers.

 

[SouthAussie]

This Washington Post article says ... (paraphrased)


One of James Cutfield's attorneys (Aldo Mordiglia) said by email that James will be interviewed by public prosecutors later on Tuesday.
Another of his lawyers (Giovanni Rizzuti) told Italian media that James will defend himself against any charges.
Other crew members were interviewed on Monday.

A law enforcement officer (speaking on condition of anonymity) said they wanted to look at the side of the yacht that is not visible, but will have to wait until after the yacht has been retrieved.
Questions seem to be whether or not all hatches were battened down, and if every crew member did what they were supposed to do.

Italy’s National Research Council has issued an analysis, and said that a potential downdraft can increase wave size from 11 inches to almost 10 feet within a few minutes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/27/bayesian-yacht-captain-manslaughter-investigation/

 

[RedHaus]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/27/bayesian-yacht-captain-manslaughter-investigation/

RSBM
Thank you @SouthAussie. I also found this bit from the Washington Post article intriguing:

"The official said that with the exception of the yacht’s chef, “the entire crew was already on the lifeboat,” while the six guests who died were still inside the yacht. Asked whether an alarm was ever sounded, the official replied: “How were those [guests] still in their rooms?”"

I had not thought of an "alarm" to emergently rouse sleeping guests and crew below deck, but that would make sense on a yacht that enormous vs. a crew member knocking on doors.

And I also have wondered today about whether there are security cameras (CCTV) anywhere on the yacht, which officials could examine, presuming they survive submersion and considerable water pressure at that depth.

 

[Cryptic]

Ooops. my earlier post overlooked crew member from South Africa.
Checked official languages there on wiki: Twelve of them, w English being one.

Of the twelve, there are two big ones regarding education and business: English and Afrikaans. I would suspect that nearly all South Africans have a working knowledge of English.

 

[bmacmillan1]

Of the twelve, there are two big ones regarding education and business: English and Afrikaans. I would suspect that nearly all South Africans have a working knowledge of English.

Correct, the dominant language being English and the two SA crew will be English speaking.

 

[mickey2942]

I don't think language was a barrier here. This is not some Carnival cruise. This was no doubt, a well known crew, who probably had worked together before. Usually, when a Captain hires, he has a few people in mind, and then asks them if they have any friends who would be interested in being on the crew.

This type of work is pretty specialized, most people know everyone else, or knows of them. Which is why, if you are not competent or professional, you end up out of the super "loop".

 

[RedHaus]

Correct, the dominant language being English and the two SA crew will be English speaking.

Even if the crew all spoke a common language, English, I wonder about three communication challenges in the face of the brief crisis they faced or the hours and minutes leading up to the crisis:

1. Were local weather alerts being communicated in Italian over the yacht's Marine VHF Radio (or is there an international standard language or built in translation capabilities in a radio)?

2. With the roar of the storm, wind, thunder, swells, screaming guests, etc. how could the crew have effectively communicated with each other in those critical moments? Did they have Crew Radios?

3. Given "... the 'Salute'... [the yacht] was originally owned by John Groenewoud, a Dutch real estate developer", as @Yellowbelly posted from a source (post #237), and the yacht was built by an Italian boat builder, what language would the vast amount of electronic controls, as described upthread by an OP a super yacht would have, be labeled in?

 

[ItalyReader]

I don't think language was a barrier here. This is not some Carnival cruise. This was no doubt, a well known crew, who probably had worked together before. Usually, when a Captain hires, he has a few people in mind, and then asks them if they have any friends who would be interested in being on the crew.

This type of work is pretty specialized, most people know everyone else, or knows of them. Which is why, if you are not competent or professional, you end up out of the super "loop".

Agreed that language probably was not a barrier. Again, time will tell but I’m pretty confidant that a requirement for the job was fluent English. The applicants would have it on their resumes as well.

English is the main lingua franca these days.
English is the principal default language for non English native speakers. It’s not French, it’s not Spanish, it’s English. Example, if a Chinese person meets a Dutch person here in Italy, they will communicate in English. Not Chinese, not Dutch, not Italian. English.

Additionally, English is also the main international language for business in the world. So considering the clients’ backgrounds, it would have been required for the staff to speak English.

All my opinion as someone living in a non-English speaking country (Italy) and observing in my two languages how non-native speakers communicate between themselves.

I’m curious about the weather alerts as @RedHaus mentioned above, I looked online and it appears in Sicily the radio channels 68 and 21 have weather 24 hours in English.
Additionally, a high tech vessel like Bayesian would have had access to many more computerized English language weather alerts options.

Regarding the control panel language, if I can choose Italian or English or Dutch in my phone navigation settings then I believe it would be possible on a high tech yacht. Would love to hear from a captain of a very large yacht on this.

All my opinion -

 

[ItalyReader]

RSBM
Thank you @SouthAussie. I also found this bit from the Washington Post article intriguing:

"The official said that with the exception of the yacht’s chef, “the entire crew was already on the lifeboat,” while the six guests who died were still inside the yacht. Asked whether an alarm was ever sounded, the official replied: “How were those [guests] still in their rooms?”"

I had not thought of an "alarm" to emergently rouse sleeping guests and crew below deck, but that would make sense on a yacht that enormous vs. a crew member knocking on doors.

And I also have wondered today about whether there are security cameras (CCTV) anywhere on the yacht, which officials could examine, presuming they survive submersion and considerable water pressure at that depth.

Yes! I simply cannot understand hiw they were still in their rooms.
Yes, there had likely been drinking at the party and yes, it was 4am and probably at least some of the people were sleeping before the storm hit.
But with what I imagine as being a great deal of tossing and turning, windows breaking, how could they have been asleep?
Even if they had sound canceling headphones on (MOO - hypothesizing) - wouldn’t the movement wake them?
This was a big yacht but not a cruise ship - and you feel motion in a storm with a cruise ship, so you’d definitely feel it here.

Did they think it was safer to stay down below??

Because otherwise - if they weren’t down below because they chose to be - they had too little time between waking and their path being blocked.

Also - Hannah was found in her room on the left side, correct? So she never left it or she tried to leave and went back.
Her father had the stateroom next to hers but was found in the forward left cabin with 4 others, whose cabins had been on the right. So all those 5 wound up moving to presumably seek air pockets.

I do recall an earlier article (I would need to find it) where we have a quote from Angela, Hannah’s mother and Mike’s wife, where she says initially she was not worried but when the boat tilted and windows started breaking they went up/out to see what was going on. Will try to hunt down that quote unless someone else also recalls. It means she and her husband left the stateroom - but perhaps she went up to deck while he remained below - for too long? Sadly yes.

Those poor people.

Article that suggests they had been sleeping -

Sicily yacht sinking: trapped passengers ‘may have died on Bayesian because they were asleep’ – as it happened

Public prosecutor launches inquiry into deaths of British tech tycoon Mike Lynch and six others people in sinking off coast of Italian island

www.theguardian.com

 

[Luna20]

It's a superyacht because its length is in excess of 130 feet, it has the world's tallest mast, it cost more than 35 million pounds. It is unusual because as you can see by the image shown below, its design is based on the racing yachts you see in America's Cup, but has a luxurious interior space for over 20 people, combination of crew and passengers.

View attachment 527265

Thank you for the details. I personally would not choose this though because of it meeting the criteria of the excess of 130 feet.

Its the height that I am uncomfortable with in relation to the water level.

I love the entire look and drama of the tall mast, it is exquisite. It’s the prettiest I’ve ever seen.