Jahi’s family wants her declared 'alive again’

[K_Z]

Regarding the meds and hormones, organs and tissues still respond to drugs even after brain death.

As an example, if you give a loop diuretic like Lasix to a brain dead person, if their kidneys are relatively normal, they will produce a lot of urine.

If you give a drug that is a heart rate stimulant, the heart will beat faster.

If you give insulin, blood sugar will drop.

If you give an anti diuretic hormone such as vasopressin, the kidneys will conserve urine.

Target tissues and target organs remain responsive to drugs, even in states of brain death. That is not new information. That STILL does not prove or demonstrate that the brain is not dead, or that the person is any more "alive".

 

[al66pine]

Regarding the meds and hormones, organs and tissues still respond to drugs even after brain death.
As an example, if you give a loop diuretic like Lasix to a brain dead person, if their kidneys are relatively normal, they will produce a lot of urine.
....
Target tissues and target organs remain responsive to drugs, even in states of brain death. That is not new information. That STILL does not prove or demonstrate that the brain is not dead, or that the person is any more "alive".

. sbm

K_Z
Thanks for the above and other plain English explanations you given for the medically-less knowledgeable (or medically ignorant, like me).

Other medical professionals -
Thanks very much for sharing your insight into the world of US healthcare.

 

[K_Z]

Regarding Attorney Dolan.....and the view from my armchair.....

I know this may sound sort of odd (and I can't be the only one who feels this way), but I can't wait to see what Attorney Dolan will come up with next. Like him or hate him, he's a masterful manipulator. In a very twisted sort of way, I can appreciate that kind of intellectual talent, and ambition, and chutzpah! Whatever he comes up with will be interesting.

There are not too many attorneys willing to walk this kind of path with this kind of family for this long. I have thought about it, and I sort of "get" why he is willing to pursue this futile path. Dolan is not stupid, or in denial. He knows, and wants to push the envelope to see what can happen, anyway. IMO. JMO, but he seems to get a genuine "thrill" out of hopeless causes like this. Now, if I'm right, there is a whole other bag of worms regarding his clients and ethics attached to that, but it seems that he just is willing to carry their flag. Even if certain failure is ahead-- the thrill of staving off that failure as long as possible keeps him motivated.

 

[TJL]

Regarding Attorney Dolan.....and the view from my armchair.....

I know this may sound sort of odd (and I can't be the only one who feels this way), but I can't wait to see what Attorney Dolan will come up with next. Like him or hate him, he's a masterful manipulator. In a very twisted sort of way, I can appreciate that kind of intellectual talent, and ambition, and chutzpah! Whatever he comes up with will be interesting.

There are not too many attorneys willing to walk this kind of path with this kind of family for this long. I have thought about it, and I sort of "get" why he is willing to pursue this futile path. Dolan is not stupid, or in denial. He knows, and wants to push the envelope to see what can happen, anyway. IMO. JMO, but he seems to get a genuine "thrill" out of hopeless causes like this. Now, if I'm right, there is a whole other bag of worms regarding his clients and ethics attached to that, but it seems that he just is willing to carry their flag. Even if certain failure is ahead-- the thrill of staving off that failure as long as possible keeps him motivated.

Money motivates a lot of people to do some pretty strange things. He knows if he even gets one little victory here, then that's free advertising and just think of all the people who will be beating down his door to give him 40% of multi-million dollar lawsuits.

 

[joypath]

Why can Nailah not go back to California? She says that if Jahi gets sick and has to go to the hospital they will kill her in Ca.
But who would take her in New Jersey?
I thought that St. Peter's was their very last hope as far as hospitals that would accept Jahi. I guess we don't know for certain that Nailah has worn out her welcome there but it certainly appears that way. St.Peter's did refuse to do the testing on Jahi, no one from St. Peter's was asked to testify or speak on Jahi's behalf and Nailah has not muttered a word of thanks for the kindness of that hospital when she is expressing gratitude to God and her "supporters". It looks like they parted on unpleasant terms. So what hospital in New Jersey is going to take her now if she "gets sick" ? No one is obligated to admit a dead body.

BBM:IMVHO, NOTHING prevents NW from returning to California, funding & coordinating the return of Jahi's body is a completely different story and an expensive one at that! Ah, the ship "IF JAHI GETS SICK" has sailed...and the opportunity to KILL her has also passed!

Without a link, I will dare to say that the rational, typical standard suggestion of care being provided outside of an acute care facility PROBABLY was presented as the next step in the St. Pete's patient care plan. And may God help any EMS responders to any 911 call regarding this case!

PS: just for light reading, here's the 2006 document regarding the "declaration of death upon the basis of neurological criteria": http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/proposal/bmepro515.htm

 

[Nore]

Hi K_Z, I just read the 11 pages (PDF) they have as much chance of changing this ruling as a snowball in he((. I have no real education but I understood every word. Whats more it looks like they cant even present anymore to CA. courts~last page. K_Z the movement is not only reflex from spine, when she moved arm and foot I swear it looked like someone moved her on other side or shook the bed. Real movement is very slow, so slow one may not realize it happened unless they are looking at the time.~like I'm telling you something you didn't already know.:lol:..Take care. Noreen

 

[Nore]

Hi again. I have been thinking of the young mother in Texas who hospital had to keep on ventilator because of the baby. Her parents were against it and so was her husband. When they finally gained permission to remove due to length of pregnancy her husband spoke. Now I do not remember his exact words but he said to the affect he was thankful. He had been buying her favorite perfume and using it generously to mask odor which was developing. Her poor hands were stiff and showing signs. The baby was malformed and dead. They buried her with her baby. So sad but a peaceful situation..I hope his life and her familys are going better now.
I don't remember too well anymore, I'm 82yrs. Please excuse mistakes.Facts are right..

 

[SwampMama]

Hi again. I have been thinking of the young mother in Texas who hospital had to keep on ventilator because of the baby. Her parents were against it and so was her husband. When they finally gained permission to remove due to length of pregnancy her husband spoke. Now I do not remember his exact words but he said to the affect he was thankful. He had been buying her favorite perfume and using it generously to mask odor which was developing. Her poor hands were stiff and showing signs. The baby was malformed and dead. They buried her with her baby. So sad but a peaceful situation..I hope his life and her familys are going better now.
I don't remember too well anymore, I'm 82yrs. Please excuse mistakes.Facts are right..

Nore, you are always one of my favorite posters. I am so amazed that you are 82. I would never have guessed that. That has to be a typo! I hope that when I am 82 that I am as sharp as you are and still here on WS.

 

[Denalus]

http://thaddeuspope.com/images/Request_get_more_evidence.pdf
I'm new at this. Hope this posts ok.

 

[TJL]

http://thaddeuspope.com/images/Request_get_more_evidence.pdf
I'm new at this. Hope this posts ok.

Yeah we've had that since Dolan issued his big press release about the Oct 9th, 2014 court hearing being "postponed." This is also the same motion that Dolan dropped the very next day (Oct 9th, 2014) at the mini-hearing, but we didn't find out about him dropping it (or that there even still was a hearing on the 9th) until just this past week (the 15th) when the court published it to the record.

Don't worry about being new, lol I was new to W/S just a couple weeks ago, but have followed and investigated this case since December...and I'm still finding/learning new things every day. All of us are Welcome to the discussion! It looks like Thaddeus Pope just got around to putting that document up. He's pretty busy, so I don't blame him. There's a few more in the chronology he's missing but I'm sure he'll get them up when he has a chance.

 

[Denalus]

Thanks for the clarification-- I hadn't realized that was the motion that was dropped.

 

[TJL]

Thanks for the clarification-- I hadn't realized that was the motion that was dropped.

I don't think they (Dolan and family) really wanted anybody to know it had been dropped, and they had planned to do it all along. He issued that huge press release the evening of October 8th, 2014, telling the media (and the world) that the case was being postponed for 4 weeks to allow his team time to get more expert testimony and evidence. He also used this as yet another opportunity to publicly shame CHO by blaming them and Dr. Fischer for him having to request 4 more weeks.

And yet, with that big press release the night of the 8th, he still went to court the morning of the 9th and dropped the motion entirely. No press release afterwards, no media interview, not even a twitter message, and the family hasn't said anything, either. Dolan has been pressed for comment as to why he dropped the motion, but he hasn't made any comments or answered any questions. So basically he made a big public media stink about needing 4 more weeks to prepare his case, but it's all crickets and mouse farts with him dropping the motion entirely.

 

[katydid23]

Thanks for the clarification-- I hadn't realized that was the motion that was dropped.

:welcome: to WS. :fireworks:

 

[lawstudent]

I know this isn't really on-topic, but since the situation with the pregnant woman was brought up, I have been wondering something. Was the fetus also brain dead? I think the reporting on that case was very sloppy because the science/medicine wasn't understood by the journalists, and my guess is the doctors thought it was likely but were not sure.

I see so many articles saying the mother was without oxygen for an hour, likely due to a blood clot. If the bloodclot blocked bloodflow to her brain, she could be deprived of oxygen, but the fetus would not be if she was still breathing, right, and the blood was flowing through the umbilical cord? But if it was for an hour, it still seems long enough that the fetus also would have been deprived of oxygen too long. Not sure if it works differently given how a fetus receives oxygen.

Then articles report that the fetus wasn't developing correctly, possibly due to the oxygen deprivation. But is fetal development driven by the brain? It seems the fetus would develop mostly normal physically, but have no chance at survival. The deformities could have been preexisting, but it's just a weird situation and I was wondering how that would work. It seems like maybe no one knew exactly what would result. But it would seem that the fetus was also legally dead, and yet that never really gets mentioned.

 

[Donjeta]

IIRC they suspected she had pulmonary embolism but weren't sure until autopsy. (Not sure what the autopsy said?)

Marlise Munoz was found not breathing and had no pulse so the fetus would not have had blood flowing through the umbilical cord until her circulation was restored. Her husband started CPR when he found her but IIRC they weren't sure how long she was lying on the floor.

 

[JulieBZ]

The motion to drop was visible later on the evening of Oct 8, 2014. Was very hush-hush.

 

[JulieBZ]

I know this isn't really on-topic, but since the situation with the pregnant woman was brought up, I have been wondering something. Was the fetus also brain dead?

From reading back when it happened, the baby was badly malformed and could not have survived.

 

[JulieBZ]

http://thaddeuspope.com/images/Request_get_more_evidence.pdf
I'm new at this. Hope this posts ok.

This is the one that he filed on Oct 8th. It's not new. He withdrew the whole thing later that evening.

 

[TJL]

The motion to drop was visible later on the evening of Oct 8, 2014. Was very hush-hush.

I think you may be talking about the motion to drop the writ of error coram nobis. That was entered and visible on the 8th, but the follow up motion to drop the requested continuance wasn't even on the table until they went to court on the 9th, and the court clerk entered it into the record as part of the hearing from the 9th, but it didn't get published until the minutes of that hearing were entered on the 14th.

If you look at the two documents I provided, you'll see the motion for continuance was dropped and signed by Grillo as part of the hearing on the 9th, and then the second document shows where it was entered officially into the minutes by the clerk. Hope this helps.

Both were very hush-hush indeed

 

[JulieBZ]

Why can Nailah not go back to California? She says that if Jahi gets sick and has to go to the hospital they will kill her in Ca.
But who would take her in New Jersey?
I thought that St. Peter's was their very last hope as far as hospitals that would accept Jahi. I guess we don't know for certain that Nailah has worn out her welcome there but it certainly appears that way. St.Peter's did refuse to do the testing on Jahi, no one from St. Peter's was asked to testify or speak on Jahi's behalf and Nailah has not muttered a word of thanks for the kindness of that hospital when she is expressing gratitude to God and her "supporters". It looks like they parted on unpleasant terms. So what hospital in New Jersey is going to take her now if she "gets sick" ? No one is obligated to admit a dead body.

She can go back to CA any time she can afford to get Jahi there, presuming she wants to take her along. The crap about hospitals in CA killing Jahi is her own delusion. The cash has run out and she can't afford to transport her.

I think if someone would make a settlement offer, Jahi would be removed from that ventilator very quickly.