James Kolar Video - A Must See!!!!!

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Is this a re-play of the video of Chief Kolar that we saw a few months ago, or is it recent?

 

[pageantmom]

Thanks for answering my questions I am trying to read the back pages of this forum so I will be more knowledgable..right now I'm on page 61. When I was growing up I assumed it was an intruder because I was a kid and didn't want to believe parents would do that. Then for a while I thought it could go either way..but I was never interested enough in the case to look things up and try to find info or anything. And now as an adult I have become interested, and let me tell you after reading this forum to page 61 (so far) I cannot believe there is even a question about who did this. There's just too much stuff that makes no sense. It had to be a family member in that home. (IMO, of course. I'd rather it not be her family, but that's what it looks like to me).

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks for answering my questions I am trying to read the back pages of this forum so I will be more knowledgable..right now I'm on page 61. When I was growing up I assumed it was an intruder because I was a kid and didn't want to believe parents would do that. Then for a while I thought it could go either way..but I was never interested enough in the case to look things up and try to find info or anything. And now as an adult I have become interested, and let me tell you after reading this forum to page 61 (so far) I cannot believe there is even a question about who did this. There's just too much stuff that makes no sense. It had to be a family member in that home. (IMO, of course. I'd rather it not be her family, but that's what it looks like to me).

If you haven't looked yet, there is a lot of resource material on the case here: http://www.acandyrose.com You have to scroll down to the JonBenet archives.
There are hundreds of threads here, and it can seem overwhelming, so you might want to consider reading one of the books- Steve Thomas' book or Lawrence Schiiler's "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town". This one also is available as a DVD you can rent- so you can get a "crash course" in about 2 hours.

 

[midwest mama]

Is this a re-play of the video of Chief Kolar that we saw a few months ago, or is it recent?

The original video was re-edited, and this video flows much better. I have been checking for the video that was supposed to be taped of Kolar's Jan 29 presentation, then edited and posted on the library website, but this is the same version they have posted on their website.

 

[midwest mama]

For pageantmom: In the book, "Presumed Guilty", there is reference to portfolios of pageant contestants being done by some of the photographers to include nude or semi-nude photos in order to give those children an edge with some of the pageant venues (modeling agencies, etc) as career jump-starts. Is there any truth to this??

There were photographs taken into evidence from the Ramsey home, which have not been released to the public, but which were used during questioning of Patsy by LE. There has been speculation over the years that JB might have been subjected to pornographic photography the night of her death.

 

[pageantmom]

I don't know every photographer obviously. But, I can't imagine that being done. It would be the opposite of helpful for your pageant career.

The only way I can ever see that happening is if you somehow got involved with a photographer who was actually a pedophile doing this for his own sick pleasure and he convinced you that it would be a good idea.

But most pageant photographers are women, and the men are most definitely gay. There's a lot of flamboyantly gay men in the pageant world. Some pageants are run by gay couples. I know some of them and they are the funniest, sweetest guys. Not that women and gay men can't be pedophiles, but I'm just saying as long as I've been in pageants I've never been made to do anything creepy, or seen anyone try to do anything creepy with my child.

When you get photos done, there are a few different kinds. You might get glitz or natural or both, depending on what types of pageants you do. But you mostly need headshots (face only or head and shoulders only) because that's what you use for the photogenic event. Photogenic is in pretty much every pageant, almost always an optional event but you kind of have to enter it because even though it's optional, it's usually part of your scoring for the supreme titles so you kind of have to do it.
Then there are portfolio shots. A lot of pageants have a portfolio contest too. These are full length shots, usually theme photos or set up like a scene- a good example of this is JB standing on a tire swing wearing summer clothes.
I've never seen anything in the way of nude portfolio shots. I can't imagine pageants directors or judges accepting such a photo, or what event it could possibly be judged. The other thing is that you wouldn't be able to print it because you wouldn't be able to let it be publically seen- and usually the portfolio winners photos are printed in the pageant book or program.

As for nude photos helping with modeling...my kid has done a little bit of modeling and acting (not much) but the advice I got from her agent was either don't do pageants, or, pretend you don't do pageants. The two worlds are definitely separate. Legitimate kid's modeling wants normal looking kids who look fresh and natural, not pageant robots with three inches of makeup on. Not that my kid's a robot but thats what the modeling world thinks. Think about kids you see in like a JC Penny catalog for example. They wear makeup but it doesn't look like they do, and they're dressed like regular children.
Pageants are a fun hobby but pageant photos will do nothing to help your modeling career. And I can't imagine nude photos of a child being helpful in the modeling world.

Now, with all that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if someone was taking inappropriate pictures of JB, whether it was her parents or someone they were allowing to do this. I think that just because of various things I've read on this forum as well as the evidence of her being abused.

 

[pageantmom]

Oh I know I typed a book already lol but I wanted to say something else. Regarding pageants, I really don't get Patsy's decisions. Frankly IMO jonbenet needed someone to get her ready for pageants who was not Patsy. Even though I never
competed against JB, I knew that she was not really vicious competition. She hadn't done a lot of pageants, her pro-am modeling was terrible (kids nowadays don't even do pro-am anymore, but back then we all had to do it), and her costumes were not really the right sort of costumes for the pageants. I'm sure you've read the article where Susan Gosney (Thumper's mom) said she was talking to Patsy at a pageant and she asked about JB's costumes because they were so unusual. JB wore too much black and white, and at that time pageants costumes were usually very bright colors, plus you never put a child in black for pageants. It was like Patsy wanted JB to wear costumes she liked herself, even though they really weren't right for the pageants. The other decisions Patsy made that I don't understand were some of the pageants she entered. Ok so JB did some mall prelims- typical for a beginner. Then she does some glitz pageants where she wins some awards and gets her age division, but is never much of a contender for the supreme titles. But then, she goes to Sunburst International? It's like, wtf. Sorry. But Sunburst is like, where the newbies go who dont know any better. It's not that it's a bad pageant, but it's a cattle call. Seasoned girls don't bother. I'm surprised Patsy wouldn't know that.
The other thing I think is odd...well, maybe not...Patsy probably liked the glitz pageants because of glamour and whatnot...natural pageants wouldn't have the "glamour" that the glitz pageants have...but...if Patsy's goal for JB was Miss America, then why put her in glitz pageants? MAO does not respect glitz pageants. It could have been a roadblock for her later. What Patsy should have been putting her in are natural pageants. American Coed, for example, one of our favorites, is a great natural pageant for kids, gives lots of stage experience, gives you lots of experience with doing interviews, doesn't allow
makeup on kids. Cinderella is another one that really is a precursor for the Miss America stage. Cinderella has you do gown, talent, interview just like the Miss America pageant, and you do everything wearing normal dresses and casual outfits. There are so many
natural pageants that actually prepare you for the Miss America stage. Oh, and JB should have joined the Little Sister program. Thats a given if youre hoping to be a Miss America winner. Miss America has a little sister program where girls are assigned to a big sister who is a Miss America local winner, and the little sisters get to see what it's like to be a Miss America girl and they get to wear a miniature crown and take part in the pageant onstage even though theyre not competing in anything.
But having JB wear a face full of makeup and doing pro am in a strange costume at Sunburst, Amerikids, or Gingerbread is Not the way to the Miss America stage. I'm surprised Patsy made the decisions she did.

Personally, I think it was never about JonBenet and the Miss America dream. I think it was all about Patsy and what SHE liked- she liked the costumes, some of which were designed to look like her old costumes, she liked making JB into a little adult, she liked the glitz and glamour... If it was really about JB and making her into Miss America, then she would have had JB in the type of pageants that would actually prepare her for Miss America. But those are a whole lot less glitzy, so they're probably just not Patsy's style, even though they would have helps JB more.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Thank you very much, Pageantmom!!!! You give us very valuable information and you proofed (for me!) one more time: JonBenet's participation in pageants was all about 'flashy' Patsy!

Thank you again.

 

[midwest mama]

Wow - so much more info than I've ever seen with regard to JB's pageant life.
Interesting the choices that were made for her entries, and I'd like to comment that Pam Paugh (Patsy's sister) took a lot of credit for JB's costume design with Grandma Nedra helping with the glitzy details. Grandma was usually on hand to push JB along when she balked from what I read.

Thanks for all the photography info. Something seems more 'off' now. The attention to JB looking so glamorized for her head and shoulder shots, and the pageants chosen which promoted a more 'mature' JB. It makes me wonder who they were showing her off to. Why would Patsy have gotten such a thrill in seeing her little girl look so much more mature than she really was? Could she have been doing it to please JR?

 

[midwest mama]

Thank you very much, Pageantmom!!!! You give us very valuable information and you proofed (for me!) one more time: JonBenet's participation in pageants was all about 'flashy' Patsy!

Thank you again.

The Paugh gals really must have had trouble letting the glamour of the pageants rest. Nedra was known to be a "force to reckon with", and I think now she must have just moved onto JB once Patsy and Pam had gone "over the hill". As Patsy was fading, maybe sliding JB into the limelight was another way she could continue to keep her mother pacified.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Wow - so much more info than I've ever seen with regard to JB's pageant life.
Interesting the choices that were made for her entries, and I'd like to comment that Pam Paugh (Patsy's sister) took a lot of credit for JB's costume design with Grandma Nedra helping with the glitzy details. Grandma was usually on hand to push JB along when she balked from what I read.

Thanks for all the photography info. Something seems more 'off' now. The attention to JB looking so glamorized for her head and shoulder shots, and the pageants chosen which promoted a more 'mature' JB. It makes me wonder who they were showing her off to. Why would Patsy have gotten such a thrill in seeing her little girl look so much more mature than she really was? Could she have been doing it to please JR?

...or please herself?!!!
- Who made sure that JB wears the matching to Patsy outfits? - Patsy!
- Who colored JB's hair in blond color with tons of makeup? - Patsy!
- Who hired and paid for professional photo sessions? -Patsy!
- Who took JB to bathroom (as the punishment!) and closed the door tide behind...while JB was screaming and crying? - Patsy!
- Toward whom JB feels rebellion and resistance? - Patsy!
.....

...so, the relationship between JB and PR was (at the minimum!) not the healthy one!...JMO

 

[Whaleshark]

...or please herself?!!!
- Who made sure that JB wears the matching to Patsy outfits? - Patsy!
- Who colored JB's hair in blond color with tons of makeup? - Patsy!
- Who hired and paid for professional photo sessions? -Patsy!
- Who took JB to bathroom (as the punishment!) and closed the door tide behind...while JB was screaming and crying? - Patsy!
- Toward whom JB feels rebellion and resistance? - Patsy!
.....

...so, the relationship between JB and PR was (at the minimum!) not the healthy one!...JMO

I agree... And John did say (playing devil's advocate here) that he stressed to Jonbenet to work on her talent and not worry about the rest; he said he liked to go to see her talent part mainly, not the other stuff...

And also, it was Patsy who taught jonbenet to dance her routine inappropriately... The dance teacher said she did not teach jonbenet the sexier moves...

 

[midwest mama]

...or please herself?!!!
- Who made sure that JB wears the matching to Patsy outfits? - Patsy!
- Who colored JB's hair in blond color with tons of makeup? - Patsy!
- Who hired and paid for professional photo sessions? -Patsy!
- Who took JB to bathroom (as the punishment!) and closed the door tide behind...while JB was screaming and crying? - Patsy!
- Toward whom JB feels rebellion and resistance? - Patsy!
.....

...so, the relationship between JB and PR was (at the minimum!) not the healthy one!...JMO

Have to agree with you, OM. This was the mother who said she loved her daughter with all her heart. WHY was she so bent on making JB into a princess type mini-me? Was she living out what she hoped she might have been?

 

[dodie20]

The Paugh gals really must have had trouble letting the glamour of the pageants rest. Nedra was known to be a "force to reckon with", and I think now she must have just moved onto JB once Patsy and Pam had gone "over the hill". As Patsy was fading, maybe sliding JB into the limelight was another way she could continue to keep her mother pacified.

In the Barbara Walters interview that was posted a couple of days ago, PR said that her pageant days, were the most wonderful time of her life. This from the mother of a murdered daughter. I would think her memories of JB might overshadow her own glory days, but evidently not. But that's ok. It is what it is, and at least she was being honest.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Random semi O/T comments

1. I am reading Kolar's book and although I can't put it down, as someone in the business I can say confidently that the manuscript needed much more editing than it received.

2. In his own words, he uses the phrase "and hence" on page 339.

O/T break done. Carry on.

 

[pageantmom]

Maybe John only liked the talent part because he knew that was the only part that was actually beneficial to JB if the goal was Miss America. The rest of the pageant was just fluff at best, and at worst detrimental to the Miss America dream.
I obviously like glitz pageants since I did them and now my daughter does them. So I'm not knocking glitz.
But lets say your big dream for your child is that they become a prima ballerina with the Royal Ballet...do you put them in lessons for hip hop dancing, or do you put them in classical ballet? That's why I don't understand Patsy's thought process in planning for JonBenet. There are a bunch of things she could have been doing to help JB get to Miss America, but she wasn't doing them. Instead, she was indulging her own glittery, glamourous dream with the glitz circuit.

 

[UKGuy]

Have to agree with you, OM. This was the mother who said she loved her daughter with all her heart. WHY was she so bent on making JB into a princess type mini-me? Was she living out what she hoped she might have been?

midwest mama,
Because thats how Nedra and Don Paugh raised Patsy. Thats what their values were, Pageant Values.


.

 

[Nom de plume]

Maybe John only liked the talent part because he knew that was the only part that was actually beneficial to JB if the goal was Miss America. The rest of the pageant was just fluff at best, and at worst detrimental to the Miss America dream.
I obviously like glitz pageants since I did them and now my daughter does them. So I'm not knocking glitz.
But lets say your big dream for your child is that they become a prima ballerina with the Royal Ballet...do you put them in lessons for hip hop dancing, or do you put them in classical ballet? That's why I don't understand Patsy's thought process in planning for JonBenet. There are a bunch of things she could have been doing to help JB get to Miss America, but she wasn't doing them. Instead, she was indulging her own glittery, glamourous dream with the glitz circuit.

Or maybe JR only said he liked the talent portion because it made him sound like a good father. He couldn't very well say that he liked the part where she strutted around like a little Vegas showgirl. (No disrespect to JB intended. PR trained her to do it.)

 

[pageantmom]

True, true. He had to be very aware of what the public would think. That may be why he said he liked talent only. You're right he can't say oh I like the swimsuit part or anything like that.
But it could also be because everything except talent is a yawn fest. I like pageants but it's not fun to sit through a bunch of kids doing the same thing. At least talent is something different.

 

[dodie20]

Maybe John only liked the talent part because he knew that was the only part that was actually beneficial to JB if the goal was Miss America. The rest of the pageant was just fluff at best, and at worst detrimental to the Miss America dream.
I obviously like glitz pageants since I did them and now my daughter does them. So I'm not knocking glitz.
But lets say your big dream for your child is that they become a prima ballerina with the Royal Ballet...do you put them in lessons for hip hop dancing, or do you put them in classical ballet? That's why I don't understand Patsy's thought process in planning for JonBenet. There are a bunch of things she could have been doing to help JB get to Miss America, but she wasn't doing them. Instead, she was indulging her own glittery, glamourous dream with the glitz circuit.

I never liked JR making this statement. 1st of all, it gave the impression that he knew what they were doing was wrong, (but he had no say so in the matter), and #2, JonBenet was 6, so stressing anything, even the talent, was ridiculous. She wasn't much more than a baby. What did he expect? for her to rehearse for hours every day so she could be a virtuoso at something? This is the kind of thing a parent would tell a much older child, as a way to keep her grounded and not so superficial. If a parent really wanted his child to nurture a talent, he wouldn't do it through the pageant system. IMO, he was trying to insinuate that HE thought the showgirls stuff was distasteful, but doing anything about it was beyond his control. riiight. .