Japan: 9.0 Earthquake-Tsunami-Nuclear Reactor Developments #3

[hollyblue]

I'd be curious about the levels of radiation now vs when the two atom bombs were dropped in 1945....and what was the reaction in CA at the time...also granting that the average adult in 1945 didn't have a clue about radioactive fallout.

The level would have been much more immense, but they were dropped and the release started and stopped with it. Now we allegedly have a "slow" leakage, but growing by the minute. The chemical profile is prolly very different also, and I'm no chemist...so don't know how much I'll actually learn. LOL.

Will have to go research later tonight.

 

[tehcloser]

PassTM, I was thinking about you and SARX and Oriah today...I can't imagine how frustrating this has been for you guys, not being able to just pack up and go help.

 

[UFO]

4.42am (1.42pm JST): The office of the Japanese prime minister is using its English language Twitter account (@JPN_PMO) to reassure people in light of the US warning to stay more than 80km away from the Fukushima plant or take cover:

We believe they made a more conservative assessment of the radiation level from perspective of protecting US citizens.

Mr. Edano: Japan Gov't has asked residents living btw 20 & 30 km from the plant to take shelter as a precaution.

No impact on human body at present even if u staying outside for 24 hrs.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/16/japan-nuclear-crisis-tsunami-aftermath-live

Well, I'm no doctor but I call BS. OK, now I'm outtahere. Good night.

 

[tehcloser]

5.01am (2.01pm JST): The BBC is carrying a disturbing report from Minamasoma, just 20km away from Fukushima No 1 plant, where residents say they are running short of supplies and complain that no one is helping them. Relief teams are reluctant to go in - remember that people 20km to 30km away from the plant have been told to stay inside - and inhabitants say there is too little fuel for everyone to leave. The footage appears to have been shot by a Japanese crew.

The town's mayor, Katsunobu Sakurai, is scathing:


"We were not told when the first reactor exploded. We just heard about it on TV. The government doesn't tell us anything. We are isolated. They are leaving us here to die."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/16/japan-nuclear-crisis-tsunami-aftermath-live

 

[mysticrose]

US starts evacuating some Americans out of Japan
12:52 a.m. Thursday, March 17, 2011

WASHINGTON — The United States on Wednesday authorized the first evacuations of Americans out of Japan, taking a tougher stand on the deepening nuclear crisis and warning U.S. citizens to defer all non-essential travel to any part of the country as unpredictable weather and wind conditions risked spreading radioactive contamination.

President Barack Obama placed a telephone call to Prime Minister Naoto Kan to discuss Japan's efforts to recover from last week's devastating earthquake and tsunami, and the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima Dai-chi plant. Obama promised Kan that the U.S. would offer constant support for its close friend and ally.

But a hastily organized teleconference with officials from the State and Energy Departments underscored the administration's concerns. The travel warning extends to U.S. citizens already in the country and urges them to consider leaving. The authorized departure offers voluntary evacuation to family members and dependents of U.S. personnel in Tokyo, Yokohama and Nagoya and affects some 600 people.

Senior State Department official Patrick Kennedy said chartered planes will be brought in to help private American citizens wishing to leave

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/us-starts-evacuating-some-874392.html

 

[not_my_kids]

We've seen the signs that Kat said to watch for, and the ones that I said to watch for (although I would trust Kat more on this one, really, since I have nothing official to go on whatsoever). This is bad. More than anything, the closed embassies, moved embassies, and embassy family evacs are the most telling to me. Remmeber, embassies are tough buildings, and they are worked by tough people that don't scare easily.

 

[gitana1]

I'm so confused by all this. I hear the fear everywhere but several "experts" I have seen on t.v. or heard on the radio here in the U.S. say there is nothing to worry about here in the states and that the effect of exposure within a small radius of the reactors is minimal. One guy said you'd have to sit on the area where the radiation steam was leaking out to see an effect. I don't know what to believe. I do tend to trust that at least for now, we in the states are okay. But how to sort it all out? What is the truth? Is money behind some of the statements? Fear of widespread panic? What's the deal?

 

[gitana1]

Here's the official state department warning: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_japan.html

 

[gitana1]

This isn't directed at you JTSYS. Your post reminded me of something that will be an indication as to how bad things are in Japan.

An excellent indication IMHO.

Where are the dependents of the active duty personnel that are assigned to Japan at this moment?

Are they in Japan? Or have they been evacuated to another location?

That will tell you exactly what the threat level is in (all over) Japan if you know where those dependents are located.

At the first "scent" of danger they will evacuate those dependents so fast it will make your head spin. Those dependents will be first in line---usually before diplomats, usually before govn workers, usually before any amercians that would need to be evac'ed. Seriously not kidding about that...

FWIW, when NK started cutting up and threatening to bomb SK off the face of the planet (there were some skirmishes not really covered in media well...) those dependents living in SK were put on emergency status and were being readied to be evac'ed out of the country.

JFYI, look for the dependents and that will give you an idea what's going on IMHO.

We have heard nothing about evac's here on HI from Japan and we spouses would hear it first before any media got wind of it. For sure.

Thought I'd bump this in light of the latest.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

O/T but not.

Back in college I had to study the writings of the scientists that actually split the atom way back when. One committed suicide (might have been two), one went insane. All of them involved - their lives didn't end well - we surmised it was because they knew what they had done and were intelligent enough to realize just what it meant for humanity.

Wonder what they would think today?

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

This isn't directed at you JTSYS. Your post reminded me of something that will be an indication as to how bad things are in Japan.

An excellent indication IMHO.

Where are the dependents of the active duty personnel that are assigned to Japan at this moment?

Are they in Japan? Or have they been evacuated to another location?

That will tell you exactly what the threat level is in (all over) Japan if you know where those dependents are located.

At the first "scent" of danger they will evacuate those dependents so fast it will make your head spin. Those dependents will be first in line---usually before diplomats, usually before govn workers, usually before any amercians that would need to be evac'ed. Seriously not kidding about that...

FWIW, when NK started cutting up and threatening to bomb SK off the face of the planet (there were some skirmishes not really covered in media well...) those dependents living in SK were put on emergency status and were being readied to be evac'ed out of the country.

JFYI, look for the dependents and that will give you an idea what's going on IMHO.

We have heard nothing about evac's here on HI from Japan and we spouses would hear it first before any media got wind of it. For sure.

I understand, believe me I understand.

 

[sorrell skye]

The Japanese government's radiation report for the country's 47 prefectures Wednesday had a notable omission: Fukushima, ground zero in Japan's nuclear crisis. Measurements from Ibaraki, just south of Fukushima, were also blanked out.


Radiation experts in the USA say that the lack of information about radioactivity released from the smoldering reactors makes it impossible to gauge the current danger, project how bad a potential meltdown might be or calculate how much fallout might reach the USA.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-03-17-japanradiate17_ST_N.htm

Well, ain't that just convenient?

 

[Peliman]

I'm so confused by all this. I hear the fear everywhere but several "experts" I have seen on t.v. or heard on the radio here in the U.S. say there is nothing to worry about here in the states and that the effect of exposure within a small radius of the reactors is minimal. One guy said you'd have to sit on the area where the radiation steam was leaking out to see an effect. I don't know what to believe. I do tend to trust that at least for now, we in the states are okay. But how to sort it all out? What is the truth? Is money behind some of the statements? Fear of widespread panic? What's the deal?

My belief is there is no need to worry about here in the U.S.A. - That's not saying things can't change but I don't see it yet. I don't expect to see a reason for it. We are always exposed to what's known as background radiation. There's lots of room before levels would be considered a danger.

Japan has much more to be concerned about. The results there are not likely to be known for years.

 

[dsntslp]

The nuclear waste rods that are stored in Utah (was it?). Are they stored in water, I assume? Is it the water these rods need or just moisture to stay cool? I know they had to have a generator to pump water for the cooling system but what about the micro beads used in gels for potting soil? I wonder if those could be dumped in there already somewhat premoistened to take up volume and to possibly plug (somewhat) the crack in the one reactor? It seems that would work better than plain water in a cracked reactor? I wonder about the chemical make-up of those beads? It's the same stuff that is in disposable diapers? Inert? But inert when exposed to nuclear fuel rods?

I know, I know, long shot. But those beads have a cooling effect. They are used in neck coolers, a bandana type wrap worn on the neck by gardeners. 1 tsp expands greatly when exposed to water. I guess, the expansion might not be such a good thing (might be horrific, the unknown) unless they could properly guage it...

Short of that, my only other layman idea at this point is to concrete or enclose the whole mess somehow and keep it flooded until they have the knowledge to deal with it

Right now, I am glad I am not a nuclear physicist with the world staring at me... and waiting for answers.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

I'm watching the re-run of Anerson tonight. That one scientist was just talking about the questions I had earlier. What happens if they just walk away and let these things "dry out" - he said nobody really knows - its all unchartered territory. Nobody forsaw any of this happening so no research was done.

He was also talking about reactors 5 and 6 and how they were completely offline when the quake hit - yet their spent fuel ponds are now in question (just like #4). Then I looked at the numbers we got tonight. Reactors 5 and 6 have much more spent fuel that ANY of the others. 4 has 160 tons of spent fuel and 5 has 150 tons of spent fuel.

What in the world is going to happen? This just can't keep going on indefinitely - this fuel is going to reach the point (in degrees) where its critical and then what? I guess nobody knows.

 

[Peliman]

The nuclear waste rods that are stored in Utah (was it?). Are they stored in water, I assume? Is it the water these rods need or just moisture to stay cool? I know they had to have a generator to pump water for the cooling system but what about the micro beads used in gels for potting soil? I wonder if those could be dumped in there already somewhat premoistened to take up volume and to possibly plug (somewhat) the crack in the one reactor? It seems that would work better than plain water in a cracked reactor? I wonder about the chemical make-up of those beads? It's the same stuff that is in disposable diapers? Inert? But inert when exposed to nuclear fuel rods?

I know, I know, long shot. But those beads have a cooling effect. They are used in neck coolers, a bandana type wrap worn on the neck by gardeners. 1 tsp expands greatly when exposed to water. I guess, the expansion might not be such a good thing (might be horrific, the unknown) unless they could properly guage it...

Short of that, my only other layman idea at this point is to concrete or enclose the whole mess somehow and keep it flooded until they have the knowledge to deal with it

Right now, I am glad I am not a nuclear physicist with the world staring at me... and waiting for answers.

Spent rods to me is a perplexing problem, they seem to be outside the containment vessel. Seeing how high they are built, I'm not even sure they can be concreted up there. One of those situations I don't have an answer for.

 

[bessie]

I talked to my 2nd dad (my best friend's dad) today who is an engineer who has worked in nuclear power for many years. He says the uranium it's self would not likely explode. It is very hard to explode a reactor. You will get hydrogen explosions. Chernoble was a steam explosion not the reactor it's self. He also said all these other elements that are being released are breakdown products of uranium. He told me the workers have no protection from the radiation. They can protect themselves from the dust and neutron penitration but the direct radiation. The people on the island will get radiated but our west coast is safe. He says it will disapate in the air and some will fall to the sea. I hope this helps. It helped me.

Thanks for the info, rpipergirl. If possible, would you ask your friend's dad for his thoughts about the MOX fuel in reactor 3? We've heard/read that it's more volatile, and the plutonium it contains more toxic, than the uranium products in the other reactors. I'm curious to know if he thinks it poses a different risk. TIA!

 

[sorrell skye]

The nuclear waste rods that are stored in Utah (was it?). Are they stored in water, I assume? Is it the water these rods need or just moisture to stay cool? I know they had to have a generator to pump water for the cooling system but what about the micro beads used in gels for potting soil? I wonder if those could be dumped in there already somewhat premoistened to take up volume and to possibly plug (somewhat) the crack in the one reactor? It seems that would work better than plain water in a cracked reactor? I wonder about the chemical make-up of those beads? It's the same stuff that is in disposable diapers? Inert? But inert when exposed to nuclear fuel rods?

I know, I know, long shot. But those beads have a cooling effect. They are used in neck coolers, a bandana type wrap worn on the neck by gardeners. 1 tsp expands greatly when exposed to water. I guess, the expansion might not be such a good thing (might be horrific, the unknown) unless they could properly guage it...

Short of that, my only other layman idea at this point is to concrete or enclose the whole mess somehow and keep it flooded until they have the knowledge to deal with it

Right now, I am glad I am not a nuclear physicist with the world staring at me... and waiting for answers.

Spent uranium fuel rods have to be stored under circulating water for 5-10 years before they are considered "cool" enough to be vaulted and dry stored.

 

[gitana1]

The nuclear waste rods that are stored in Utah (was it?). Are they stored in water, I assume? Is it the water these rods need or just moisture to stay cool? I know they had to have a generator to pump water for the cooling system but what about the micro beads used in gels for potting soil? I wonder if those could be dumped in there already somewhat premoistened to take up volume and to possibly plug (somewhat) the crack in the one reactor? It seems that would work better than plain water in a cracked reactor? I wonder about the chemical make-up of those beads? It's the same stuff that is in disposable diapers? Inert? But inert when exposed to nuclear fuel rods?

I know, I know, long shot. But those beads have a cooling effect. They are used in neck coolers, a bandana type wrap worn on the neck by gardeners. 1 tsp expands greatly when exposed to water. I guess, the expansion might not be such a good thing (might be horrific, the unknown) unless they could properly guage it...

Short of that, my only other layman idea at this point is to concrete or enclose the whole mess somehow and keep it flooded until they have the knowledge to deal with it

Right now, I am glad I am not a nuclear physicist with the world staring at me... and waiting for answers.

Some "expert" on the radio was talking about the concrete idea and said that it wasn't really a viable option because the amount needed would be too great to produce at present and also that a build up of heat or whatever (steam?) would crack it anyhow.

 

[Reality Orlando]

Spent rods to me is a perplexing problem, they seem to be outside the containment vessel. Seeing how high they are built, I'm not even sure they can be concreted up there. One of those situations I don't have an answer for.

Someone on the radio today was saying that if they can keep the temps down for a few weeks, the rods will burn themselves out, or something like that. I just caught the middle of the conversation. He didn't seem to think there was any danger except within about 100 miles at most of the reactors. We can only pray that's the case.