Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #3

[FacelessPodcast]

Can’t read a lot on this thread right now so apologies in advance if this has already been covered. We can make a reasonable assumption that the balcony door was found closed by LE because it’s not mentioned as being open, and because TMPD do not point it out as the most likely entry point.
But would the killer take the time to close it after he enters? I think he would, as it faces the street and any screaming would be easily heard if open. And he came to kill.
This doesn’t answer why he doesn’t seem to be very concerned about screaming being heard through the walls by the other family but, then again, he obviously didn’t need to be concerned about that as they didn’t hear any screaming. Oddly.
My point, though: I find it quite reasonable to think the killer would have taken the extra second or two required to close the balcony door behind him.

Hope you're doing okay, @fridaybaker.

And I agree with you, you would just close it by reflex -- the balcony door is a sliding door. If he entered by the front door, he wouldn't have left that open either. Unlikely you would even put much thought into it and just do it as a matter of course. He loses nothing by shutting the door behind him, whether front door or balcony. The bathroom window would be less pressing to shut given its size / location etc. But we don't know its state upon discovery either.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

About if there were muddy footprints in the house at all I remember reading there were actually. This was from a source Monazite’s blog I believe so I would need to go back to find it again and his blog is a bit of a mess.

RSBM: Excellent points re: laundry. I can confirm the mud through the house. None in the window frame, though. Now, as per the video, he wouldn't need to touch the window frame with his feet to get in. But he would need to touch the ledge / that unit on the wall.

JMO but I think for many reasons the front door has zero chance of being the entry point, but I don’t discount it being an exit. That leaves the balcony and the bathroom window. He had to have used one of them.

If the killer comes through the front door, then he knows them -- exactly -- and then we're back to the paradox. There's no way Mikio let's him upstairs at that time of night without knowing him and knowing him well. That's trust. Though if that is a relationship the TMPD have somehow missed then it would be very significant that he kills Rei before Mikio, that would indicate the boy being is priority. I don't buy it on any level.

The thing that's strange about the front door is that there is zero blood around it, though. So, if the killer left that way, he hopped over Mikio's body and blood pool on the way out or cleaned his shoes throughly just after that blood and took the cleaning supplies with him.

 

[Incoherent]

The thing that's strange about the front door is that there is zero blood around it, though. So, if the killer left that way, he hopped over Mikio's body and blood pool on the way out or cleaned his shoes throughly just after that blood and took the cleaning supplies with him.

RSBM: it would also mean turning two locks and pushing the door to exit and leaving nothing on them. I can see the TMPD perhaps trampling his footprints in the genkan and making the evidence difficult to find, but how about his prints on the locks or door from the inside? I can only assume they did check for that and got nothing then.

And so we circle back to the main questions again, how did this guy get in and then get out? I can’t help but wonder if we’re missing something but I can’t think what.

 

[BatataPoha]

So, my earlier thought that the muddy footprint at the start would lead to muddy entry tracks into the house is not complete.

Technically there is a thin possibility that he wore a shoe cover of some sort.

Like what non operative staff wear in OT but more for civilian use perhaps.

Hat for head cover.
Gloves for hand cover
Shoe cover for the shoes.

Would seem to fit the theme if the killer was super conscious at the start.

Then he gets them muddy, takes them off and puts them in his trouser pocket?

Could technically explain maybe the difficulty in assessing shoe size from the shoe cover print.

Goes up, kills and goes away.

SUPER SLIM POSSIBILITY, BUT IF WE ARE GOING FOR A SUPER CAUTIOUS KILLER AT THE START, WITH MAYBE SOME MEDICAL BACKGROUND, MIGHT AS WELL GO DEEPER INTO THE RABBIT HOLE.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

So, my earlier thought that the muddy footprint at the start would lead to muddy entry tracks into the house is not complete.

Technically there is a thin possibility that he wore a shoe cover of some sort.

Like what non operative staff wear in OT but more for civilian use perhaps.

Hat for head cover.
Gloves for hand cover
Shoe cover for the shoes.

Would seem to fit the theme if the killer was super conscious at the start.

Then he gets them muddy, takes them off and puts them in his trouser pocket?

Could technically explain maybe the difficulty in assessing shoe size from the shoe cover print.

Goes up, kills and goes away.

SUPER SLIM POSSIBILITY, BUT IF WE ARE GOING FOR A SUPER CAUTIOUS KILLER AT THE START, WITH MAYBE SOME MEDICAL BACKGROUND, MIGHT AS WELL GO DEEPER INTO THE RABBIT HOLE.

Possible, sure. But improbable. And the difficulty in reading footprints in blood is inherent, I think. Not admissible in many courts as evidence for example versus fingerprints which obviously are.

Your idea would also require him to go back outside and then come in again to traipse the mud around. I can't tell you he didn't do that -- but I see nothing but risk in him doing so, and zero benefit.

 

[BatataPoha]

Your idea would also require him to go back outside and then come in again to traipse the mud around.

are you confirming that there is mud inside the house, a muddy footprint outside of it but none whatsoever on the track, either up to the bathroom window or to the balcony sliding door?

Because thats crazy to me.

 

[BatataPoha]

RSBM: it would also mean turning two locks and pushing the door to exit and leaving nothing on them. I can see the TMPD perhaps trampling his footprints in the genkan and making the evidence difficult to find, but how about his prints on the locks or door from the inside? I can only assume they did check for that and got nothing then.

And so we circle back to the main questions again, how did this guy get in and then get out? I can’t help but wonder if we’re missing something but I can’t think what.

Technically he could have used Mikio’s sweater to handle the door, or wiped it off with the sweater after unlocking the door.

Latent fingerprints can be wiped off by the killer, or maybe by the grandma if she accidentally handled it some form or fashion.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

are you confirming that there is mud inside the house, a muddy footprint outside of it but none whatsoever on the track, either up to the bathroom window or to the balcony sliding door?

Because thats crazy to me.

There was mud inside the house but not on the window sill, yes. And it makes sense given that we know the killer was walking in the mud behind the house.

We don't know if there was mud on Rei's balcony -- the TMPD have never spoken about this balcony at all that I've heard.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Technically he could have used Mikio’s sweater to handle the door, or wiped it off with the sweater after unlocking the door.

Latent fingerprints can be wiped off by the killer, or maybe by the grandma if she accidentally handled it some form or fashion.

Why would he bother when his fingerprints are everywhere? He's clearly not bothered about hiding evidence.

 

[BatataPoha]

Why would he bother when his fingerprints are everywhere? He's clearly not bothered about hiding evidence.

I mean I assume just from what is available online that the TMPD didn’t find his fingerprints on the lock on the inside,

So either he wiped it, or the grandma accidentally wiped it or he didn’t use the door.

If he doesn’t use the door, then he goes back the way he comes in. If he came in via the balcony, then the balcony doors remain open. And thats a very easy explaination for how he entered and exited.

Going out through the bathroom window seems far more difficult than coming in, especially with a now injured hand, but I am not an expert in this kinda stuff so I dunno how feasible it is.

 

[Lubilu]

Technically he could have used Mikio’s sweater to handle the door, or wiped it off with the sweater after unlocking the door.

Latent fingerprints can be wiped off by the killer, or maybe by the grandma if she accidentally handled it some form or fashion.

I think that in the event that there was blood to be wiped off, which I would assume there to be, there would still be DNA evidence on the door/door handle in this particular scenario, even if it were possible to give it a 'visually clean' appearance or remove certain prints. Unless he brought a cleaning kit with him and was for some reason only concerned about leaving the doorway free of evidence.

 

[BatataPoha]

There was mud inside the house but not on the window sill, yes. And it makes sense given that we know the killer was walking in the mud behind the house.

We don't know if there was mud on Rei's balcony -- the TMPD have never spoken about this balcony at all that I've heard.

And how do you make sense of how the killer got the mud in the house but not on any of his potential entry tracks?

It also doesn’t seem too difficult to check for. So I dunno why nobody has pressed the TMPD for whether they found any mud on the balcony, on the car or on the walls.

 

[BatataPoha]

I think that in the event that there was blood to be wiped off - which I would assume there to be - there would still be DNA evidence on the door/door handle in this particular scenario, even if it were possible to give it a 'visually clean' appearance or remove certain prints. Unless he brought a cleaning kit with him and was for some reason only concerned about leaving the doorway free of evidence.

I don’t think the killer is actively bleeding at this point.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

I mean I assume just from what is available online that the TMPD didn’t find his fingerprints on the lock on the inside,

We don’t know where they found prints beyond what they’ve stated. I just know they are unsure about entry / exit.

So either he wiped it, or the grandma accidentally wiped it or he didn’t use the door.

If he doesn’t use the door, then he goes back the way he comes in. If he came in via the balcony, then the balcony doors remain open. And thats a very easy explaination for how he entered and exited.

Why is he unable to close the balcony door after him? Surely the longer the murders remain undiscovered, the better for him. We don’t know how the balcony door was found.

Going out through the bathroom window seems far more difficult than coming in, especially with a now injured hand, but I am not an expert in this kinda stuff so I dunno how feasible it is.

I think making that drop with an injured hand wound be ludicrous, yeah.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

And how do you make sense of how the killer got the mud in the house but not on any of his potential entry tracks?

I don’t pretend to make sense of it. Because I don’t know exactly the mud was placed throughout the whole house. Only that it wasn’t in the bathroom window, nor was it mentioned on the exterior walls.

It also doesn’t seem too difficult to check for. So I dunno why nobody has pressed the TMPD for whether they found any mud on the balcony, on the car or on the walls.

Feel free to try and press the TMPD.

 

[BatataPoha]

Why is he unable to close the balcony door after him? Surely the longer the murders remain undiscovered, the better for him. We don’t know how the balcony door was found.

I dunno if it is possible for someone to lock the balcony from outside. Would then necessitate a key to unlock the door from the outside, to prevent someone getting locked out on the balcony, unlocking a whole new range of possibilities for our killer.

If there is no lock, then it seems rather dangerous.

I don’t think anyone is discovering the murders early just by the open windows alone, and he could just as easily draw cover it up with blinds/curtains.

However there is another major problem with using the balcony for exit.

The balcony drop is also harder to execute with an injured hand. It also doesn’t offer a bigger reward of non discovery as compared to the front door while massively amplifying the risk of a fall, a break, more blood stains etc.

Feel free to try and press the TMPD.

I dunno if this is sarc or not, but I don’t mind, coz someone in Japan or outside should be asking basic questions to the TMPD out of respect for the victims.

The distribution of the mud inside the house doesn’t matter. If there is mud inside the house, and a muddy footprint outside the house, then conventional logic simply dictates that there should be mud somewhere in between, microscopic or detectable by forensic methods. Its not really rocket science.

I would definitely press them on this, although I am unsure how they respond to being pressed by random Indians. Probably not too kindly but whatever.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

I dunno if it is possible for someone to lock the balcony from outside. Would then necessitate a key to unlock the door from the outside, to prevent someone getting locked out on the balcony, unlocking a whole new range of possibilities for our killer.

I believe it was a mechanism rather than a lock and key. But I didn't suggest it needed to be locked, merely closed.

If there is no lock, then it seems rather dangerous.

I don’t think anyone is discovering the murders early just by the open windows alone, and he could just as easily draw cover it up with blinds/curtains.

Not even if the balcony door is wide open and the police find dead bodies? Let's say it was the front door that was wide open, wouldn't that suggest the killer used it?

However there is another major problem with using the balcony for exit.

The balcony drop is also harder to execute with an injured hand. It also doesn’t offer a bigger reward of non discovery as compared to the front door while massively amplifying the risk of a fall, a break, more blood stains etc.

It's a significantly smaller drop than from the bathroom with infinitely more space to manoeuvre. But I don't know he used it to exit, I just believe he used it for ingress. Ultimately, I don't know. Nor do you. You don't think he used the balcony, that's great, we can agree to disagree.

I dunno if this is sarc or not, but I don’t mind, coz someone in Japan or outside should be asking basic questions to the TMPD out of respect for the victims.

It's not sarcasm. I have tried many, many times to get answers from the TMPD with limited success. You are welcome to try, even though I don't think you will be successful. As for people within Japan scrutinising the police, this brings us back to the fundamental issue with the press / kisha club and police etc. Roundly criticising the police or demanding explanations from them is not the done thing.

We can critique that all day long. But then I could similarly criticise aspects of Spanish law enforcement / American / British. I have no grasp of Indian counterparts but I imagine they have their issues too. I have my own issues with the TMPD's investigation. Their effort is not one of them. And yes, it would be great if they communicated their findings more. It doesn't mean they don't know a whole lot more than they have shared. I don't see how respect for the victims comes into this on any level. In fact, I have rarely seen such respect shown to the victims of an unsolved crime than I have in this instance. Unless the implication is that I'm not asking these basic questions to the TMPD / lacking respect?

The distribution of the mud inside the house doesn’t matter. If there is mud inside the house, and a muddy footprint outside the house, then conventional logic simply dictates that there should be mud somewhere in between, microscopic or detectable by forensic methods. Its not really rocket science.

I would definitely press them on this, although I am unsure how they respond to being pressed by random Indians. Probably not too kindly but whatever.

If it's not complicated then why don't they have a solid answer for his entry/exit point?

If you choose to get in touch with them, I wish you the best of luck. Please let us know how you get on.

 

[SteveL]

Go to a local police department and start demanding actions, results or answers. See how it goes. Here in Chicago, that used to get you a rap upside da’ head. Might still.

I have no clue how Nic’s been able to get TMPD to share so much with him. It’s probably his credibility, which I respect. I value the information he graciously shares here. Some, I take with a grain of salt. But, he’s the expert. Those who don’t agree definitely haven’t listened to a single episode of the Faceless podcast, which exhaustively covers every angle that has any degree of credibility.

It’s frustrating when members (not calling out any individual) want to waste time and space bickering with him. The back and forth is hard to read. Often, it comes across as disrespectful.

It seems to me, during these incidents is when Nic takes time away from the discussion. As the foremost expert here, that’s a disservice to those of us who respect his expertise and insight. And in his absence, the discussion seems to devolve into theories about murderous monks, Chinese terrorists, and South Korean hit men.

Thanks Nic for your invaluable insight. And, your Faceless podcast was even better the second time through it. I would hope you understand the appreciation most of us feel in sharing your knowledge here.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Go to a local police department and start demanding actions, results or answers. See how it goes. Here in Chicago, that used to get you a rap upside da’ head. Might still.

I have no clue how Nic’s been able to get TMPD to share so much with him. It’s probably his credibility, which I respect. I value the information he graciously shares here. Some, I take with a grain of salt. But, he’s the expert. Those who don’t agree definitely haven’t listened to a single episode of the Faceless podcast, which exhaustively covers every angle that has any degree of credibility.

It’s frustrating when members (not calling out any individual) want to waste time and space bickering with him. The back and forth is hard to read. Often, it comes across as disrespectful.

It seems to me, during these incidents is when Nic takes time away from the discussion. As the foremost expert here, that’s a disservice to those of us who respect his expertise and insight. And in his absence, the discussion seems to devolve into theories about murderous monks, Chinese terrorists, and South Korean hit men.

Thanks Nic for your invaluable insight. And, your Faceless podcast was even better the second time through it. I would hope you understand the appreciation most of us feel in sharing your knowledge here.

I appreciate your words, @SteveL. You're very kind.

I think that in the event that there was blood to be wiped off, which I would assume there to be, there would still be DNA evidence on the door/door handle in this particular scenario, even if it were possible to give it a 'visually clean' appearance or remove certain prints. Unless he brought a cleaning kit with him and was for some reason only concerned about leaving the doorway free of evidence.

I agree with your view, @Lubilu. What sense is there is leaving a 'treasure trove' of evidence all over the house, but worrying about fingerprints on the door? Saliva, faeces, blood, hair, fingerprints, clothes, sand etc. He leaves all of that but for some reason, doesn't want the TMPD to know how he exited the house. If anyone can come up with a credible reason for that, I'm more than happy to give way.

 

[fridaybaker]

Go to a local police department and start demanding actions, results or answers. See how it goes. Here in Chicago, that used to get you a rap upside da’ head. Might still.

I have no clue how Nic’s been able to get TMPD to share so much with him. It’s probably his credibility, which I respect. I value the information he graciously shares here. Some, I take with a grain of salt. But, he’s the expert. Those who don’t agree definitely haven’t listened to a single episode of the Faceless podcast, which exhaustively covers every angle that has any degree of credibility.

It’s frustrating when members (not calling out any individual) want to waste time and space bickering with him. The back and forth is hard to read. Often, it comes across as disrespectful.

It seems to me, during these incidents is when Nic takes time away from the discussion. As the foremost expert here, that’s a disservice to those of us who respect his expertise and insight. And in his absence, the discussion seems to devolve into theories about murderous monks, Chinese terrorists, and South Korean hit men.

Thanks Nic for your invaluable insight. And, your Faceless podcast was even better the second time through it. I would hope you understand the appreciation most of us feel in sharing your knowledge here.

Can't agree more.