JLM: Morgan Harrington/Fairfax Rape Victim - *Forensic Link* to MH #3
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I don't understand why so many of us are getting upset about the DNA links. They will be made clear in short order is my guess. Really, until JM's directly obtained DNA was run through the system, any links were from other sources, and not necessarily from JM. It was too soon after his capture, IMO for that JM's DNA swab to have been processed before the links were made public. I think that the labs got a match between something that was taken from JM's car or apartment and whatever LE had on file from the MH case. What the items were, the kind of DNA, saliva, hair, semen, blood has not been stipulated. But al of that will come out in time.
There is a lot in this case that may never be clear or proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but the DNA matches will something right out there. In the case of MH, there is no evidence that she could have been drugged before she realized she had been abducted, so her perp may well have had a fight on his hands. Her parents certainly think so. And under the fingernails is a good place to find DNA. That is my guess as to some DNA found and left even with skeletal remains, and also an indicator that there was a struggle, a fight back on part of MH. I wish we could get a photo or some info from someone who saw JM right after MH disappeared, and could tell us if he looked scratched up at that time. Sadly I don't think there will be much of that with Hannah, given the description that "Abby", the Checker at Tempo gave of her condition. I don't think JM spent $7.50 on two beers and the time to drink them when he had Hannah willing to go for a ride with him unless he had some reason to take the time and expense to do this. She would have been thirsty from the dehydration of too much earlier drink and her long walk, so a cold beer would have been easy to get down her; she'd have been most willing. There are no indication on JM that he was in any fight with her either.
As for rape, scientists who have found bodies in digs from times long ago have been able to tell things like cause of death, likely rape,etc, etc so it is likely that the coroner was able to do the same for MH. How sure he was or whether it was a strong likelihood, just a probabiity, we don't know and we don't know what MH's parents did with the report which they did get in terms of reducing all of those pages (it was a huge, heavy report, MH's mother reports on her blog) to their press statements. The Harringtons have been working against a lot of odds, some very nasty remarks, ridicule and without support from quarters on would have expected to keep their daughter's case open and to find her perp. They may well have paraphrased to get the most effect from their statements.
So even if Hannah is not found, and not enough evidence can be compiled to get a major conviction of JM in her case, the MH case remains open. And if indeed, JM's DNA is under MH's finger nails, how on earth could that be explained away? Reasonable doubt there? I don't think so. And if more DNA matches are found, like in his cab that match MH, on MH's shirt that match JM, I think JM have a high likelihood of being committed. I don't feel as confident about the Hannah Graham case without finding Hannah. We expect to find Hannah's DNA in JM's car, of course she was in his car, we know she was with him and in his car. Until and unless LE finds her body, unless there is some boss evidence found, and now we have learned LE does NOT have the clothes he wore that day, it's going to be a problem.
There is a lot in this case that may never be clear or proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but the DNA matches will something right out there. In the case of MH, there is no evidence that she could have been drugged before she realized she had been abducted, so her perp may well have had a fight on his hands. Her parents certainly think so. And under the fingernails is a good place to find DNA. That is my guess as to some DNA found and left even with skeletal remains, and also an indicator that there was a struggle, a fight back on part of MH. I wish we could get a photo or some info from someone who saw JM right after MH disappeared, and could tell us if he looked scratched up at that time. Sadly I don't think there will be much of that with Hannah, given the description that "Abby", the Checker at Tempo gave of her condition. I don't think JM spent $7.50 on two beers and the time to drink them when he had Hannah willing to go for a ride with him unless he had some reason to take the time and expense to do this. She would have been thirsty from the dehydration of too much earlier drink and her long walk, so a cold beer would have been easy to get down her; she'd have been most willing. There are no indication on JM that he was in any fight with her either.
As for rape, scientists who have found bodies in digs from times long ago have been able to tell things like cause of death, likely rape,etc, etc so it is likely that the coroner was able to do the same for MH. How sure he was or whether it was a strong likelihood, just a probabiity, we don't know and we don't know what MH's parents did with the report which they did get in terms of reducing all of those pages (it was a huge, heavy report, MH's mother reports on her blog) to their press statements. The Harringtons have been working against a lot of odds, some very nasty remarks, ridicule and without support from quarters on would have expected to keep their daughter's case open and to find her perp. They may well have paraphrased to get the most effect from their statements.
So even if Hannah is not found, and not enough evidence can be compiled to get a major conviction of JM in her case, the MH case remains open. And if indeed, JM's DNA is under MH's finger nails, how on earth could that be explained away? Reasonable doubt there? I don't think so. And if more DNA matches are found, like in his cab that match MH, on MH's shirt that match JM, I think JM have a high likelihood of being committed. I don't feel as confident about the Hannah Graham case without finding Hannah. We expect to find Hannah's DNA in JM's car, of course she was in his car, we know she was with him and in his car. Until and unless LE finds her body, unless there is some boss evidence found, and now we have learned LE does NOT have the clothes he wore that day, it's going to be a problem.
R
This article says 90 minutes for a DNA test
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...weeks.html?pg=all&ref=https://www.google.com/
This article says 90 minutes for a DNA test
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...weeks.html?pg=all&ref=https://www.google.com/
It takes about two weeks to process DNA when there's an urgent need. Wasn't the announcement that Hannah's disappearance was forensically connected to Morgan's murder was about two weeks after Jesse Matthew was arrested?
Regarding Morgan Harrington, I don't think that it has ever been a secret that she and her friends were getting in the mood in her car prior to the concert. They were by no means alert and sober the night that Morgan vanished. Morgan was described as being out of it just outside the arena by people that were waiting to enter the arena.
"A man who had been waiting for friends near the arena entrance that night told police he overheard Morgan arguing with officials to let her back in. She then came up to him, as though to walk arm in arm, and said, "Let's go." When he declined, she cursed and kicked him — something so uncharacteristic of the person her friends describe that it suggests Morgan may well have been drunk. Other witnesses spotted her walking away from the arena, through two parking lots. Then police heard from people who had seen her attempting to hitchhike across Copeley Road Bridge, a quarter-mile south of the arena, at around 9:30 p.m. but hadn't witnessed her getting into a car. From there, the trail went cold."
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/advice/a3534/morgan-harrington-disappearance/
I doubt that Jesse Matthew's DNA was found under Morgan's fingernails. In the case of Nancy Cooper (NC), she was found within days of her disappearance and although there was DNA under her fingernails, it was already too degraded to provide a profile. The forensic evidence is more likely, as Morgan's mother described, in her tissue - which had to be reconstituted before experts could look for DNA. The fact that reports are that Morgan was raped suggests to me that the DNA is related to the rape. DNA that was identified on Morgan's body has been connected to another rape.
I would be surprised if useful DNA can be tested in 90 minutes. In a recent case I followed, police desperately needed DNA because they had a suspect (who was known to flee) but they could not make an arrest until they received DNA results. It was two weeks before the rushed DNA analysis could be completed.
I just read the article, and see that it is a new process that was announced in March, 2013. Perhaps, in the future, it will be possible to complete the analysis in 90 minutes, but I doubt that it is true today. Maybe the machine is undergoing more testing.
The arrest was made 9/24 and, per the timeline, the forensics tie to MH was announced 9/29. Five days.
Sept 13 Hannah vanished
Sept 19 J. Matthew identified as a "person of interest"; search of car and apartment
Sept 21 J. Matthew arrest warrant for reckless driving
Sept 23 J. Matthew charged with abduction with intent to defile.
Sept 24 J. Matthew arrested
Sept 29 Hannah connected to Morgan
If police gathered DNA from Jesse's apartment on Sept 19, doesn't it seem possible that they had the results on Sept 29?
Interesting article. Thanks for sharing it. So much happening to make things happen faster. However, right now the there are certain standards that LE observe in taking DNA samples. That a sample could be taken from JM's cheek swab that quickly is one thing. Whether it is standard protocol for LE in Texas or Virginia is a whole other. There is also the fact t
"Hurdles remain, however, before the machine can more accurately examine a broader range of DNA samples such as hair, skin and bodily fluids." And the quick take is only from the cheek swab results right now, it appears.
I don't know why it takes LE as long as it does to come up with DNA results. I think in some cases, it's because of the massive amount of junk to be tested. Could you imagine trying to get some order in anything from JM's car? It could have looked like a dumpster inside of it and getting samples from the such is probably very, very difficult. At the time, they did not have anyone's cheek swab either. Hannah was (and is) not found, and they did not have JM's. What they now are likely doing with JM's results is crosschecking it with all that they have from his car and apartment.
I would guess that results from what they have on file from MH and the Fairfax rape victim (that would be a very good sample) should have been checked against JM's DNA now directly taken from cheek swab and LE should know if there is a direct hit, if indeed, they have good samples from MH. I would be interested in learning the results.
looking at Human's interesting article that he referenced for us in post #43, LE could have gotten the info directly from JM's cheek swab if they used some rush method. However, what they collected from the apartment and car, as mentioned before would be one heck of mess to try to collate. There had to have been all kinds of DNA in both places. I shudder at the thought of having to work with that.
Interesting, Otto. I simply don't know anything about DNA reconstituion. Only read about it in a "jurassic park" way. I guess we'll find out. That LE could find DNA of the perp on a body that was out in the elements for so long and was "skeletal" in description is quite a feat, and I'd like to read about how LE did do this. Grisley subject but it is wonderful that this can tell the story for MH when she no longer can.
Conductor71
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I agree. The reference sample for Fairfax perp came from the DNA extracted from the 2005 assault victim. IF it comes from Morgan's remains, I am thinking more likely they have a partial DNA sample, and a Mitochondrial one at that which will not tell us much more (IMO) other than the perp's ethnic ancestry and race. On the shirt, they may have extracted from blood which would be much stronger DNA evidence.
That victim's eyewitness account of her assailant, along with his DNA recovered at the time and put into Virginia's DNA databank, now offers the best hope for an arrest in the Harrington case. Unfortunately, as anyone who remembers the Charlottesville serial rapist case can attest, a DNA match isn't always enough to solve a crime, and eyewitness accounts can carry troubles of their own.
http://www.readthehook.com/67132/morgans-killer-fairfax-case-connection-offers-hope-fresh-fear
LE has not confirmed that the link is DNA; it is forensic which includes any number of things.
Conductor71
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BBM A "forensic link" connected to Morgan's murder? I read a forensic link, have not seen any source that can provide evidence that the link proves "murder". It is okay to infer that, but it is worded as fact. We really do not know what LE's link confers.
cluciano63
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I have no quibble with the idea the idea that LE has DNA linking MH to JM and possibly to Hannah too. But I am not comfortable hearing details of autopsy and the crime itself from her parents and taking it as fact, only because they is no way they can be neutral or unbiased. Their being of medical background does not change that for me. I don't think anyone should be criticized for wanting to hear specific confirmation from the ME or LE down the line, maybe only at trial. If her parents have something slightly incorrect, I would not expect LE to come out and "correct them" publicly, when there is no need to do so at this time. Anyway, jmo.
I don't think that Morgan was just a skeleton ... pretty sure that there was tissue remaining. If we think back to Laci Peterson, we know that even after she spent four months at the bottom of the ocean, her womb was intact until shortly before (days) her remains washed ashore simply because her unborn baby was in fact intact. Laci's arms and head were missing, but important (for her unborn child) internal organs were the last to deteriorate.
Tomorrow I'll see what I can come up with using the decomposition formula that is based on average temperatures and length of exposure to see if that can tell us whether she was a complete skeleton. Now that I think about it, it might have been in relation to this case that I first learned about the formula. I think this might have been discussed extensively in 2010. Although some will doubt the validity of the formula, it is from a valid source ... if someone else wants to have a go at it, here's information.
Here's the formula:
"Decomposition is a complicated process, but is primarily dependant on temperature and to a lesser extent on moisture. In our studies we have worked out a simple formula, which describes the soft tissue decomposition process for persons lying on the ground. The formula is y=1285/x (where y is the number of days it takes to become skeletonized or mummified and x is the average temperature in Centigrade during the decomposition process). So, if the average temperature is 10°C, then 1285/10 = 128.5 days for someone to become skeletonized. Of course, this is a rough estimate since many factors affect this rate and it is typically used at a crime scene when investigators need some time frame from which to begin their investigation. Buried individuals and ones submerged in water have different rates of decomposition. Injuries affect the rate as well since damage to the skin increases blood loss, insect and bacterial action. In severe environments, such as in the arctic or in deserts, rapid desiccation occurs and this makes any accurate determination extremely difficult. Carnivore activity is yet another factor which can radically affect decomposition. Exclusion of insects and carnivores will slow down the process, whereas exposure to many (or larger) carnivores will increase the rate. Remember that decomposition does not end after the soft tissue has disappeared. The skeleton also has a decompositional rate that is based on the loss of organic (collagen) and inorganic components. Some of the inorganic compounds we use to determine the length of time since death include calcium, potassium and magnesium."
http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf
I agree with you. I have great admiration for the Harringtons who have kept on this fight and search for whoever killed their daughter without a lot of support. They've made themselves the support. It appears that who they believed killed their daughter indeed was a serial rapist/killer. Though I know they have some inside info about their daughter's case, as they did get the official autopsy report, I still would not take what they say as absolutel. It may even be true, but not in a form that is admissable in a court of law, be something reasonable but not truely proved. A reason LE does try to keep info about these things to a minimum, is that 's it's to easy to postulate and then express a possibility as a truth.
Even with what LE says, what can make its way into evidence can be quite different. So, a lot of things are up in the air as to what actually happened in those 3 rape cases. Hopefully we find out about this ilnk. It would be preferable that one perp did all of this, and that he gets locked away for life.
That's right. Jesse Matthew has been linked to Morgan's murder. This has been posted before, with different sources, but the information is the same.
"Matthew, 32, who was arrested in connection with Graham's disappearance last month, has been linked to the 2009 unsolved murder of Harrington."
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...arlottesville-missing-girls-va-278708901.html
Here's the video with the same headline:
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...Holding-Evidence-Hannah-Graham-277670271.html
Morgan's parents did not link Hannah's disappearance to Morgan's murder.
It seems like it would be difficult to avoid this information.
"A forensic connection has been made between the disappearance of University of Virginia student Hannah Graham and the 2009 murder of a student in Charlottesville.
Virginia State police announced today that the suspect who has been arrested in connection to Graham's disappearance has some physical connection to the death of Morgan Harrington. Harrington was a student at Virginia Tech who disappeared after attending a Metallica concert in Charlottesville near the University of Virginia in 2009."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspect-ha...nce-tied-2009-murder-police/story?id=25840656
"A forensic connection has been made between the disappearance of University of Virginia student Hannah Graham and the 2009 murder of a student in Charlottesville.
Virginia State police announced today that the suspect who has been arrested in connection to Graham's disappearance has some physical connection to the death of Morgan Harrington. Harrington was a student at Virginia Tech who disappeared after attending a Metallica concert in Charlottesville near the University of Virginia in 2009."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspect-ha...nce-tied-2009-murder-police/story?id=25840656
Conductor71
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Last I checked a headline does not prove anything. Headlines are often misleading and put a spin on the facts. I usually end up reading the article or fact check it with a better journalistic source. There is a wealth of information here:
“‘Forensic evidence’ basically means scientific evidence,” he said, “pretty much anything they find that links a person to a scene or to someone else.” That means it could be that investigators tied Matthew’s DNA to some discovery from the Harrington case, but not necessarily. The link could be hair, fibers, fingerprints, even an object.
“In other words, it could be anything, really,” Heilberg said, and the purposely vague wording and the timing of the announcement might suggest police are sitting on something less than a slam dunk.
http://www.c-ville.com/questions-remain-police-link-hannah-graham-suspect-morgan-harrington-case/
Obviously, if we're going to say that the media, police, and everyone know nothing, then we too know nothing.
In context:
"Charlottesville defense attorney David Heilberg, who isn’t involved in the case, said the language investigators have used leaves a lot of questions.
“‘Forensic evidence’ basically means scientific evidence,” he said, “pretty much anything they find that links a person to a scene or to someone else.” That means it could be that investigators tied Matthew’s DNA to some discovery from the Harrington case, but not necessarily. The link could be hair, fibers, fingerprints, even an object."
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