JLM: When will charges come in the HG and MH cases?

[ILOKAL]

I'm not Conductor71, so you weren't replying to me, but the PDF guide for medical examiners does note it as a neutral term within a certain context:

"It is to be emphasized that the classification of Homicide for the purposes of death certification is a 'neutral' term and neither indicates nor implies criminal intent, which remains a determination within the province of legal processes." (pg. 6, https://netforum.avectra.com/temp/ClientImages/NAME/38c0f1d2-11ec-45c7-80ca-ff872d0b22bc.pdf)

If I understand correctly, not all homicides would be crimes. Killing someone in self-defense, for example, would qualify as a homicide as the manner of death, right? So I think the comment about neutrality is more about it being legally or criminally neutral – simply knowing one person killed another does not necessarily tell us that it is murder.

(Of course I hope everyone realizes I am not saying that we have such ambiguity in this particular case – I was strictly speaking about the above discussion of the general term.)

Thank you for your informative post. In a nutshell, although all murders are homicide, not all homicides are murder.

 

[zapped]

I can think of one way the ME could determine a cause of death as homicide and MO from mere bones, that would possibly even relate Hannah Graham's murder to both Morgan Harrington's and Cassandra Morton's murders.

All three remains were discovered with their skulls separated from the other bones. If this is not a naturally occurring phenomenon as remains become skeletal, and if there are hack marks on the neck bones, the three deaths could be caused by beheadings or the attacks included beheading post-mortem.

Additionally, all three of women's remains were found near creeks.

Or if someone shook them hard enough to break their necks.

My apologies if thats offensive. Not thinking too clearly at the moment due to medication. Im going back to bed.

 

[ILOKAL]

Here is an article about an older case describing why it was called homicidal violence. Sounds very similar to Hannahs case, evidentally they had found more at the discovery site?
http://www.kcby.com/news/local/125604798.html
From article
Medical Examiner James Olson says Freeman's body was almost completely skeletonized and there were no usable internal organs left to evaluate.

He could not determine a cause of death due to decomposition but felt most comfortable describing it as homicidal violence of an undetermined type.

"I chose to call it homicidal violence of an undetermined type because of the circumstances. In other words, finding other items of her apparel, one of which had blood on it. You basically have the disappearance of this healthy, young woman and she's dumped.

From some of the reading I've done and since "undetermined" is actually one of the five manners of death and Hannah's was ruled a homicide, the undetermined in her autopsy means the actual cause of her homicide will be determined in a court of law. JMO

 

[Enni]

how do they usually try serial killers? Do they like to do all of the murders at once? maybe because they are pushing for death penalty? I feel like maybe it's possible they are making sure they find out all (if any) other victims before charging for the murders. I guess they figure he isn't going anywhere for the time being.

I've wondered about is, too.

Is it usual to try each murder separately when there are multiple charges? Idk how SKs are usually tried, but it seems more than likely that JLM is involved in more than one murder.

I would think that any similarties between cases would help establish culpability — esp. if all the related dna evidence points to a single suspect. It would also be more cost– and time-effective.

For example, hearing that JLM was expelled from one university due to a rape allegation is v. troubling, but not quite as extremely alarming as having the same scenario repeat again at the next college. Knowing his dna was found on the Ffax victim is damning, but not quite as awful as knowing the same dna is associated with Morgan's rape and murder, and HG's disappearance.

These cases need to be looked at / tried together, IMHO. The defense would probably prefer they be tried separately, claiming it'd be prejudicial, but these are not isolated events; they're all part of a single continuum.

 

[Auburnlucky7]

I like the use of the descriptor "violent" with homicide on the ME's report because when this case goes to trial the ME's report is likely to be a key piece of evidence that will go back with the jury during deliberations and the jury will have no doubt that HG's death was truly premeditated, "violent" and horrific. As always, JMO.

 

[DClady]

Or if someone shook them hard enough to break their necks.

We know that JM choked the Fairfax victim to the point of unconsciousness. Is it possible that forceful choking could lead to a broken neck?

Morbid, I know.. sorry. I'm just not educated on such things and am trying to find possible connections.

 

[Faithandhope]

We know that JM choked the Fairfax victim to the point of unconsciousness. Is it possible that forceful choking could lead to a broken neck?

Morbid, I know.. sorry. I'm just not educated on such things and am trying to find possible connections.

Such a horrible thing to think about, but a good question. He's very big and strong and was a football player, so if physically possible, I wouldn't doubt that he could do it.

 

[FindHG]

Officials: Hannah Graham died from "homicidal violence"
By CRIMESIDER STAFF ASSOCIATED PRESS November 19, 2014, 10:05 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/officials-hannah-graham-died-from-homicidal-violence/

 

[SteveP]

I've wondered about is, too.

Is it usual to try each murder separately when there are multiple charges? Idk how SKs are usually tried, but it seems more than likely that JLM is involved in more than one murder.

I would think that any similarties between cases would help establish culpability — esp. if all the related dna evidence points to a single suspect. It would also be more cost– and time-effective.

For example, hearing that JLM was expelled from one university due to a rape allegation is v. troubling, but not quite as extremely alarming as having the same scenario repeat again at the next college. Knowing his dna was found on the Ffax victim is damning, but not quite as awful as knowing the same dna is associated with Morgan's rape and murder, and HG's disappearance.

These cases need to be looked at / tried together, IMHO. The defense would probably prefer they be tried separately, claiming it'd be prejudicial, but these are not isolated events; they're all part of a single continuum.

The cases will be tried separately, and the defense will argue vehemently to keep mention of any of the other cases out of the particular case being tried at any given time, and will possibly be successful. Knowledge of other possible crimes that he has not yet been convicted of would almost guarantee a prejudicial jury , it could be argued. JMO

 

[4 Free Speech]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Hannah_Graham

On November 18, The Washington Post reported that a cause for Graham's death was determined, but was withheld at the request of law enforcement.[31]

Later that day, the Albemarle County Police Department reversed course, releasing that Graham died of homicide by an "undetermined etiology."[3][32]

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

The cases will be tried separately, and the defense will argue vehemently to keep mention of any of the other cases out of the particular case being tried at any given time, and will possibly be successful. Knowledge of other possible crimes that he has not yet been convicted of would almost guarantee a prejudicial jury , it could be argued. JMO

Because of what you've said, I've wondered how the prosecution explains what precipitated the DNA swab which led to the match and the Fairfax charges. JM was not a suspect (that's been announced, anyway), so won't it come up that the DNA was obtained as a result of the HG charges? It will be interesting to know how that might come into play.

 

[4 Free Speech]

http://www.wset.com/story/27432426/hannah-grahams-exact-cause-of-death-could-be-unknown

Hannah Graham's Exact Cause of Death Could be Unknown

Posted: Nov 19, 2014 3:42 PM PST
By Angela HatcherCONNECT


Albemarle Co., VA - We now know Hannah Graham's cause of death, but information released by Albemarle County Police indicates they may not know exactly how the University of Virginia student died.

[modsnip]

 

[Conductor71]

Because of what you've said, I've wondered how the prosecution explains what precipitated the DNA swab which led to the match and the Fairfax charges. JM was not a suspect (that's been announced, anyway), so won't it come up that the DNA was obtained as a result of the HG charges? It will be interesting to know how that might come into play.

The Supreme Court recently ruled that collecting involuntary DNA samples from arrestees and entering it into state and national CODIS databases is perfectly natural. As Justice Kennedy argues:

When police use the suspect’s DNA profile to search records in their possession, it “is no different than matching an arrestee’s face to a wanted poster of a previously unidentified suspect..."

http://jonathanturley.org/2013/06/0...and-opens-the-door-to-a-massive-dna-databank/


Hmmm... those sketches are so photo realistic. Interesting.

Seems LE was interested in getting JM's DNA sample as soon as they could. Arresting him on reckless driving charges would not allow for the DNA sample but facing felony charge of abduction with intent to defile would. I wonder what may have led them to home in on JM other than the video surveillance?

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

The Supreme Court recently ruled that collecting involuntary DNA samples from arrestees and entering it into state and national CODIS databases is perfectly natural. As Justice Kennedy argues:

When police use the suspect’s DNA profile to search records in their possession, it “is no different than matching an arrestee’s face to a wanted poster of a previously unidentified suspect..."

http://jonathanturley.org/2013/06/0...and-opens-the-door-to-a-massive-dna-databank/


Hmmm... those sketches are so photo realistic. Interesting.

Seems LE was interested in getting JM's DNA sample as soon as they could. Arresting him on reckless driving charges would not allow for the DNA sample but facing felony charge of abduction with intent to defile would. I wonder what may have led them to home in on JM other than the video surveillance?

Your link is super-interesting....thanks.

As far as LE's interest in JM, with no one else seeing HG after being seen with JM, a call from one of the ladies he was with earlier might perk LE's interest to the heights it was perked. (The ones who were with JM's old friend at the bar that night.) Their information added to the surveillance videos probably shut the door to any other possibilities in the eyes of LE.

 

[Conductor71]

Your link is super-interesting....thanks.

As far as LE's interest in JM, with no one else seeing HG after being seen with JM, a call from one of the ladies he was with earlier might perk LE's interest to the heights it was perked. (The ones who were with JM's old friend at the bar that night.) Their information added to the surveillance videos probably shut the door to any other possibilities in the eyes of LE.

True, but all of that is so circumstantial. Seems that a defense lawyer could cast doubt on many witness statements, but I guess it is enough to meet probable cause? If any of those women had complained to a manager or if a bouncer had intervened on their behalf and JM was booted out or warned, then by all means I could see how LE arrived there.

Interestingly, Coy Barefoot missed this stop in JM's timeline. Or has this been discredited somewhere else along the way? There is a report by a co-owner of Rapture who told media that JM was in the bar that night and ordered two drinks; he blended right in with the clientele. In Wash Post article:

Cecilia Rodi, a co-owner of the Rapture restaurant on the Mall, said that on the night Graham vanished, Matthew stopped at her bar for a whiskey and Coke in the hours before he and Graham were allegedly seen together. Matthew was a regular patron, Rodi said, and so he blended into the crowd, attracting no attention from the staff.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...fabab0-48bd-11e4-b72e-d60a9229cc10_story.html

 

[4 Free Speech]

True, but all of that is so circumstantial. Seems that a defense lawyer could cast doubt on many witness statements, but I guess it is enough to meet probable cause? If any of those women had complained to a manager or if a bouncer had intervened on their behalf and JM was booted out or warned, then by all means I could see how LE arrived there.

Interestingly, Coy Barefoot missed this stop in JM's timeline. Or has this been discredited somewhere else along the way? There is a report by a co-owner of Rapture who told media that JM was in the bar that night and ordered two drinks; he blended right in with the clientele. In Wash Post article:

Cecilia Rodi, a co-owner of the Rapture restaurant on the Mall, said that on the night Graham vanished, Matthew stopped at her bar for a whiskey and Coke in the hours before he and Graham were allegedly seen together. Matthew was a regular patron, Rodi said, and so he blended into the crowd, attracting no attention from the staff.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...fabab0-48bd-11e4-b72e-d60a9229cc10_story.html

Great post - what time was he seen at Rapture? I didn't see the specifics in the article. Does anyone know?

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Hannah Graham Case Update: UVa Student Died of 'Homicidal Violence,' Cause Unknown

http://www.universityherald.com/art...-died-of-homicidal-violence-cause-unknown.htm


According to the Associated Press, the 18-year-old student at the University of Virginia (UVa) died of "homicidal violence," but the M.E. could not pinpoint the precise cause. The Albemarle County Police Department said Tuesday that a final autopsy had not been filed yet.

In order to "protect the integrity of the case," police and prosecutors said in their public statement on the findings that they would not answer questions or provide further information. Graham went missing on Sept. 12 and her remains were found more than a month later. Albemarle County Commonwealth Attorney Denise Lunsford said in a statement at that time that authorities would refocus the investigation on "what charges will be brought and the appropriate time to make those charges."

The main suspect in her disappearance, Jesse Matthew, 32, was charged with abduction with the intent to defile and arrested before Graham's remains were found. Since, he has been forensically linked to an abduction in 2009 and a sexual assault case from 2005.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I've been thinking about the search warrants, and what was found. LE said that on the first pass--the car and the apartment--they found nothing to allow them to make an arrest. But after the second apartment search (and prior to forensic analysis), they issued the arrest warrant. What could they have gotten the second time that they didn't get the first time? Clothing was mentioned. Could it be HG's watch that they found? Maybe they missed it the first time (it was large and could have been mistaken for masculine based on the picture of her at her apartment).

Also, does anyone know if LE can do DNA testing prior to an arrest? I know once an arrest is made they take the swab, but what kind of testing can they do during an investigation before charges and arrest?

 

[4 Free Speech]

I've been thinking about the search warrants, and what was found. LE said that on the first pass--the car and the apartment--they found nothing to allow them to make an arrest. But after the second apartment search (and prior to forensic analysis), they issued the arrest warrant. What could they have gotten the second time that they didn't get the first time? Clothing was mentioned. Could it be HG's watch that they found? Maybe they missed it the first time (it was large and could have been mistaken for masculine based on the picture of her at her apartment).

Also, does anyone know if LE can do DNA testing prior to an arrest? I know once an arrest is made they take the swab, but what kind of testing can they do during an investigation before charges and arrest?

Why would they leave something as critical as a picture frame in his apartment for the next potential tenants??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDY9-uMcF5c

Watch from 2:48 - 3:14 in the segment.

They went back and found a picture frame with marks on it, like someone was cutting drugs or doing lines on it.

I would think LE would have confiscated everything.

It's an older video which some of you may have seen.

 

[CoolJ]

Homicide is neutral as a manner of death classification. It means that the ME has determined that the cause of death is directly attributable to another person. For example, a doctor assisted would be classified as a homicide in a state with no right to die laws. The idea of intent and degree of involvement, or criminal aspects, are legal constructs and range from manslaughter to murder. Therefore, descriptors like "violent" have no absolutely place in the ME's final ruling or finding. It is simply added to be inflammatory IMO. I don't read tons of autopsies but have never, ever seen a manner of death come with an adjective like that. They simply do not qualify any manner of death that way. We don't have violent or pleasant suicides or peaceful accidents.

I added a link out earlier to a good standard for ME in determining Manner of Death, but will resource it here too. See page 6 for a succinct definition of homicide. I think the points on same page at "E" have particular relevance in this case.

A Guide for manner of death classification

I've been thinking about the search warrants, and what was found. LE said that on the first pass--the car and the apartment--they found nothing to allow them to make an arrest. But after the second apartment search (and prior to forensic analysis), they issued the arrest warrant. What could they have gotten the second time that they didn't get the first time? Clothing was mentioned. Could it be HG's watch that they found? Maybe they missed it the first time (it was large and could have been mistaken for masculine based on the picture of her at her apartment).

Also, does anyone know if LE can do DNA testing prior to an arrest? I know once an arrest is made they take the swab, but what kind of testing can they do during an investigation before charges and arrest?

Another weird similarity/coincidence to the RAT/Alexis Murphy case -> went back to apartment(trailer) for a second time and found evidence that they couldn't find the first time.