Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[LambChop]

Thanks for the alternate opinion! It's interesting to read!

Personally I don't think it makes any medical sense. Here's what he said:

Dr. Terry says, "If soon after receiving this gunshot wound, Mr. Alexander sustained a more significant injury that results in loss of blood, such as that cut across the neck or the stab wound of the heart then there might not be a whole lot of blood flowing up to the head to allow more bleeding into those soft tissues."

Ok, so if he was shot in the head and his throat cut immediately afterwards there would still be significant bleeding in his brain. This is because there is already blood in the brain and face already. There is also blood that enters the brain from the posterior part of the body through the spinal column that would still be intact and would still allow blood into the brain until the heart stops beating and until TA had no blood left in his body. So no this doesn't account for little blood in the brain issue. This is scenario is semi-plausible, not ridiculous but not possible IMO.

The other scenario Dr. Terry provided was if he was stabbed in the chest immediately after the shot to the head. OK what?!?!?! Then you have all your blood in your body that can go into your brain until your heart stops beating. There would be a even more significant amount of blood in the brain this way. If you puncture your heart you don't bleed out as fast as the throat slice through the carotids and jugulars. It can still function but not efficiently and it will fail. This scenario is ridiculous IMO.

And then if either of these scenarios were the case, the gun shot and then the immediate throat slice or stab to the chest, that caused so little blood flow to the brain that the brain couldn't even bleed from it's injury. Then there would be no blood in the brain for it to function, then how exactly did TA lean over a sink and then crawl out to a hallway? The brain needs blood and oxygen to function, to be conscious, to make your muscles move.

Uhh where did they get this guy??

Very good, makes sense. If the head shot were first would JA have had to help TA up out of the shower because according to what Dr. Horn testified to TA would have had restricted movements?

 

[Nova]

...Then again, it is absolutely impossible for me to understand the motives behind such heinous crimes… It gives me the 'heebie-geebies'. Granted, this is how I believe it happened IMO: stabbed, throat sliced when he had lost enough blood to relax enough for her to accomplish that horrifying near decapitation, and then shot.

I am the grandson of morticians and grew up listening to "shop talk" at the dinner table. I was a juror on a murder trial and had to look at dozens of pictures of a young man who had been stabbed 10 times with a butcher knife. I worked on a trial in which six teenagers were burned to death at an amusement park and I had to look at the resulting pictures. ("Crispy critters" they are called in the trade.)

I often watch nature documentaries that include predation and the scavenging of animal corpses while I eat.

But I don't think I have ever seen photos as disturbing as those of the victim in this case. (This isn't a complaint. Warnings were clearly posted before each link.) I'm just saying I never! And I may have to skip dinner tonight.

***

One other thought I haven't seen posted here: I don't have a link at the moment, but IIRC a lot of first-time murderers (I know: "Assuming Fact Not in Evidence in re JA") are truly stunned by the loudness of a gun shot in a confined space. If the gun was fired first (which does makes sense to me given the relative sizes of the killer and victim), it may have jammed after the first shot. But it also may have scared JA with its volume and so she resorted to a quieter weapon.)

 

[Zeno49]

Sequence of Alexander Death
There is a span of about 2 minutes 30 seconds occurring between TA sitting in a fetal posture inside shower stall to the point of slit throat and unconsciousness.
TA obviously was larger and could easily overpower JA so the initial assault was designed to equalize or immobilize TA.
There is only ONE important wound to TA’s anterior chest. That is a single penetrating wound into upper left thorax. Angle of wound was slightly upward. The knife wound lacerated the superior vena cava. This single potentially lethal wound would NOT IMMEDIATELY immobilize TA. Indeed it would awaken him and set into motion vigorous defensive action. JA is left handed and to use the left hand to thrust forward into TA chest would have been awkward at best. The camera was in one hand or the other.
JA had both weapons concealed in pants and both were available.
To immobilize TA without evoking vigorous defensive action JA used a gun. She shot him at an angle of downward with his head turned upward and to his right. The 22 gauge bullet penetrated his right frontal bone and probably grazed his frontal lobe/? Lobes. The exit wound out of the anterior cranial fossa is NOT described clearly in autopsy report. It probably passed into planum sphenoidale or posterior left orbital roof and proceeded into TA’s infratemporal fossa and eventually lodged near his left mandibular condyle. Contrary to Horn’s testimony this gunshot wound would NOT be fatal nor would it have rendered TA unconscious. It would have stunned TA but he would have remained mobile.
JA realizing that TA was moving and dazed shot the gun yet again but this time the gun likely jammed. This why she invoked this story as part of the ninja intruder explanation. JA had no practice with handguns and probably did NOT practice with her stolen 25 caliber pistol.
THEN the gun was discarded quickly and now the knife thrusts to the anterior chest began. She scored one significant wound to the chest – non fatal. Now TA was bleeding from forehead wound and chest wounds. TA fought against the initial knife attacks to his chest with both hands and arms. JA modus operandi at this juncture was furious forward slashing at the erect mobile TA. TA managed an erect position in front of bathroom sink. JA had won the upper hand in this battle – after less than 1 minute of gun followed on by knife attack. TA likely stumbled to his right through the hallway towards the bedroom in an attempt to flee from his attacker. During the ensuing 30-45 seconds JA was thrusting vigorously against TA’s back. JA was in a state of panic because TA just would not drop dead.
As TA proceeded to bedroom he fell to a crouched position – standing on all four limbs. After the dozen plus thrusts back wounds did NOT bring about incapacitation JA then stood over him
And with her right hand JA pulled TA’s neck up and with the knife in her left hand JA executed a long deep thrust of his upper neck. The most pressure was delivered to TA right side – the knife wound severed the internal carotid artery and right internal jugular vein, the knife then severed the upper trachea but as the wound slash proceeded from JA right to left the knife wound became more shallow thus sparing TA left common carotid artery and internal jugular vein. Suffering from this kind of slash wound TA quickly lapsed into unconsciousness.
JA then proceeded to drag TA back into bathroom and then began to assess the crime scene.

JA initial planned for a quick clean kill with a gun. The 30 knife slashes were the result of JA’s initial panic that the victim was not incapacitated by a single gun shot wound.
The 22 caliber casing resting on top of a pool of blood (seen in crime scene photos) in NO way indicates the gun shot wound came last. That casing was loose on the floor and flipped initially onto a clean bathroom floor. JA must have spent between 60- 120 minutes after the crime in an attempt to stage and clean up the crime scene. That casing was loose on the floor and simply wound up on top of blood splatter after TA finished her cleaning up exercise – which included pulling him back into shower stall to clean him and her up.

Why the anterior chest wound did NOT come first.
It is true that TA was likely lured into a sitting position within his shower stall. But JA was standing facing toward TA. IF JA had been right handed she could have initiated an effective assault with slashing movements down onto TA face and chest. Even this set of activity would likely have initiated vigorous defensive counteraction by TA. Under those circumstances the smaller petite JA might have been neutralized and TA would have had many defensive wounds to his hands and forearms. JA was not interested in an unreliable pre mortem knife fight. She was left handed and likely used her left hand to wield the knife. It is nearly impossible to replicate TA’s chest wound constellation by imagining the opening salvo with JA standing up and to TA’s right side. In this instance autopsy discovered chest wounds would have been directed downward and toward TA’s left side.
Most of her knife slashes were ineffective anyway. For the most part JA merely hit bone and cartilage and thus caused superficial lacerations – to TA’s chest, back of head, and upper back – despite 29 quick jabs to the victim’s body.
It would be indeed illuminating to actually reenact the murder scene with a stopwatch.

JA Murder Sequence with a stop watch.
In the reenactment the JA character has to access 1) a gun likely hidden in back pocket and 2) a knife – also located at close quarters.
Shoot first and witness shock effect of TA then shoot again. The second shot likely jammed hence the truthfulness in her Ninja Warrior story. The gun is discarded and the knife jabs begin in very rapid sequence. JA would have to thrust at him like a dervish dancer – wild indiscriminate thrusting. The TA character would stumble or crawl to bedroom while JA continues to pummel his backside. She finally, while standing over him, grabs the head, arches it up and she slashes his throat. This is FINALLY the coup de grace. She drags the body back towards the bathroom.
STOP the WATCH. How much time has passed?

 

[Zeno49]

okay, I will go first

I think he was stabbed in the chest first right after the last alive picture.

I think he went forward and she started stabbing his back and the back of his head (the camera is still in her hand, at this point... her right had which was pointed out in testimony). He sustains most of the defensive wounds at this point while is he is bent forward guarding his head.

The ceiling picture (which in testimony was taken right side up from waist height) was taken on accident somewhere here..after which the camera drops.

Travis comes out of the shower area and she stabs him again (maybe the stomach stab) that leaves blood on the floor by the toilet and where the scale was moved to.

He moves to the sink and bleeds over the sink coughing and spraying blood on the back of the mirror.

He moves down the closet side of the hall (waist high drag marks on the wall so he could be crouched over at this point) and ends up by the carpet area.

He collapses and his throat is slashed there on the carpet area.

She drags him back along the other side of the wall to the shower area.

she puts him into the shower (which is still running most likely).

She then goes to her purse to get the gun (some small amounts were found near the dresser) and she shoots him in the head.

I am still not sure if the water on the floor came from the running shower and Travis who had been in the shower or if she splashed some around for effect. The rug and the scale both showed signs of being moved.

:moo:

"Rationally" it makes NO sense why JA would cram a DEAD TA into a shower stall and then shoot him in the head. Why? The shot sound would have called attention to the bathroom activity. The shot was anterior in the head and skull. Why not shoot him in the temple as a "topping off" gesture?

Also - it is not an act of murder to shoot a dead person.

 

[Zeno49]

Thanks for the alternate opinion! It's interesting to read!

Personally I don't think it makes any medical sense. Here's what he said:

Dr. Terry says, "If soon after receiving this gunshot wound, Mr. Alexander sustained a more significant injury that results in loss of blood, such as that cut across the neck or the stab wound of the heart then there might not be a whole lot of blood flowing up to the head to allow more bleeding into those soft tissues."

Ok, so if he was shot in the head and his throat cut immediately afterwards there would still be significant bleeding in his brain. This is because there is already blood in the brain and face already. There is also blood that enters the brain from the posterior part of the body through the spinal column that would still be intact and would still allow blood into the brain until the heart stops beating and until TA had no blood left in his body. So no this doesn't account for little blood in the brain issue. This is scenario is semi-plausible, not ridiculous but not possible IMO.

The other scenario Dr. Terry provided was if he was stabbed in the chest immediately after the shot to the head. OK what?!?!?! Then you have all your blood in your body that can go into your brain until your heart stops beating. There would be a even more significant amount of blood in the brain this way. If you puncture your heart you don't bleed out as fast as the throat slice through the carotids and jugulars. It can still function but not efficiently and it will fail. This scenario is ridiculous IMO.

And then if either of these scenarios were the case, the gun shot and then the immediate throat slice or stab to the chest, that caused so little blood flow to the brain that the brain couldn't even bleed from it's injury. Then there would be no blood in the brain for it to function, then how exactly did TA lean over a sink and then crawl out to a hallway? The brain needs blood and oxygen to function, to be conscious, to make your muscles move.

Uhh where did they get this guy??

The above scenario is simply wrong and NOT possible.
First – the gunshot wound entered TA’s frontal bone in a downward trajectory from right to left. The bullet fragment entered the anterior cranial fossa in an oblique trajectory that either entered the right frontal lobe OR grazed the right frontal lobe. In any case there would have been VERY LITTLE intra or extra axial hemorrhage within brain substance or subarachnoid space because the bullet missed the anterior cerebral arteries and falcine veins. It is therefore likely this gunshot wound dazed TA. The only vascular area that this bullet fragment encroached upon is the left infratemporal fossa and hence possible injury to the internal maxillary artery.
Second, there was no injury to TA’s spinal cord, brainstem, mid brain, parietal temporal and occipital lobes.
TA’s basal ganglia, motor and sensory tracks would have been fully in tact.

 

[Zeno49]

You have a very interesting point. Did she bring the gun with the intent to use it first? Did she think it would be too loud and went and got a knife while Travis was showering? :what:

But, if that is the case, why would she shoot him after putting him in the shower? What motive would she have for that? He is already lifeless or most of the way dead when she drags him into the shower... did she not want him to suffer anymore?

I still do not change my vote. There is blood all over the damn place and I think something didn't go as planned.

She shot him first and ran to get a knife (it would take a whole 30 seconds maybe, I can get through my house in less time). When she came back to his bedroom he was in the hallway and she attacked him there. There wasn't much of a struggle but she definitely slit his throat in the bedroom right where there is a HUGE blood stain in the carpet. Then dragged him back to the bathroom.

I believe JA intended to murder TA at the onset. She merely was waiting for suitable opportunity. One chance would have been to tie him up during sex and then murder him. The only “minor” problem here is that JA needed access to either weapon. These were concealed in a purse or bag.
When their sex activity was completed, TA opted to shower and JA dressed. It is likely that JA then obtained both gun and knife and concealed them in her pant pockets. Using photography angles as an excuse, JA convinced TA to pose in the shower stall in a crouched position. Here he was vulnerable. His only means of defense is with hands and arms. He could not retreat nor could he quickly arise and/or then lunge forward towards her.
With TA’s crouched position and with the cover of his arms and hands, an effective knife thrust into the anterior chest would have been difficult. JA was holding and taking pictures with both hands and JA was left handed. JA needed to set aside the camera, withdraw a knife, and thrust downward towards TA chest. Any blind knife thrust to the thorax would likely have hit rib, sternum, or cartilage AFTER the accelerating knife missed an outstreched arm or a hand.
The forensic evidence shows knife wounds to the chest mostly hitting ribs. The single potential fatal knife wound entered at a fairly level angle and even traversing slightly upward in its path through the chest wall toward TA’s superior vena cava. This sort of wound is IMPOSSIBLE with TA in a crouched position and JA standing upright and to TA’s right side.
Assuming JA used her left hand to facilitate the slashing movements with a knife, TA should have been in an erect position so that the thrusts enter his chest at a horizontal and upward angle. Alternatively TA could have been in a recumbent position with JA standing over him. This later scenario is unlikely to have happened.
These assertions speak to the contention that JA shot TA first and THEN began a successful attack to his chest with a knife.
The blood splatter on the sink arguably did NOT originate from TA’s nose or mouth. The reason is that TA’s tracheobronchial tree was completely in tact during the initial assault. The knife wound to the superior vena cava would have hemorrhaged into the pericardial sac or neighboring pleural reflections TA’s heart was pristine. No blood would have entered the bronchi. Hence NO coughing up blood.
The gunshot wound (likely) did not enter TA high nasopharynx. However, there is a chance the bullet fragment entered a posterior ethmoid air cell. The autopsy report was poorly written and was very imprecise with respect to the gunshot wound. The state’s pathologist also was not expert with respect to neuropathology or neuroanatomy. If the bullet had entered TA’s left paranasal sinuses-ie ethmoid sphenoid or maxillary sinus - THEN he could have aspirated and spit up blood. The pathologist did NOT detail injury to the facial bones. Indeed the pathologist mentioned the “superior orbital bone”. There is no such anatomic entity. Question – was there any blood accumulation in the sphenoid ethmoid or maxillary sinuses?? Was there trauma to the left nasopharynx?
OTHERWISE
The sink blood splatter originated from the bleeding chest wounds as JA pummeled him from the rear.

 

[Zeno49]

Has anyone entertained the idea that JA had an hours long hostage situation with TA (as opposed to an hours long sexual marathon)? I may have missed a photograph, but not one of the photographs I've seen of TA strikes me as "posing." He seems humiliated and like he's trying to look away from the camera in every picture. Of the two pictures where his eyes are visable, one looks like he is mortified, and the other looks like he is desperate. The picture that NG keeps describing as TA flexing his bicep looks more like a man wringing his hands or trying to cover himself to me.


not appear "at ease" during the shower photo shoot.

I can imagine JA holding him at gunpoint for hours taunting him with threats like, "bet your girlfriend won't be going on any trips with you after she sees these pictures," and "we'll see what the church elders think of you now," etc. She may have even set out thinking she could force him back into a relationship this way...who knows? I don't even believe TA took the pictures of JA. I think she took them using the timer (easy enough to pull off with TA duct taped).

Bottom line for me is that, because I honestly believe she was taking those pictures at gunpoint (even she said TA would never "allow" such pictures to be taken), it would be logical that she shot him first, and when the gun jammed on the second shot, she had to run to the kitchen for a knife. From that point on, the blood evidence pretty much tells the story.

JMHO

This scenario is very interesting and I believe possible. TA does not appear "at ease" during the shower photo shoot.
HOWEVER:
Why take some 5-7 minutes to obtain photogenic sexy “in the shower” photos of Travis? TA deleted these photos. If the intent was to kill him why wait for a photo shoot? To “torture” him? To taunt him?
This sort of taunt would have been risky. If JA had a gun on him while concurrently taking photos, this situation would have eliminated the element of surprise and the “first mover advantage”.
The best strategy is to maneuver TA into the most vulnerable position. Short of TA falling down recumbent and hands up like a police command to a suspected criminal, a crouched fetal position would be the best JA could hope for.
This was the optimal moment for a clean murder. JA then took the gun out of her pocket and shot him in the right forehead.
Had JA googled the question “ how to shoot somebody to kill?”, she would have learned that a gun shot to the brain stem – single bullet through an open mouth- is cleanest and immediately lethal. Second best is a gunshot wound entering at the temple and penetrating the lower cerebrum and upper brainstem. Third, a gunshot through the forehead moving backward with an exit wound through the back of head- entrance at right forehead and exit through the left occipital bone.

 

[Zeno49]

Posted this in another thread, but this one is more appropriate..

The only way I can make sense of the totality of the wounds is if the ME is off on his opinion that the gunshot wound would have immediately rendered Travis unconscious and unable to defend himself. Even the ME says he does not have complete information because he can't track the bullet through the brain. There's no testimony about what functions are controlled in that part of the brain or why it would necessarily have immediately incapacitated Travis completely.

The other factors that support the gunshot being first are:

1. The shot was downward traveling from Travis' right brow down to his left cheek from at least 2-3 feet away. (ME testimony and pics). This was exactly the relative positions of Travis and Jodi in the last "alive" picture of Travis in the shower 44 seconds before the camera dropped.

2. At no time after the throat wound would Travis have been in a sitting up position that could have led to the path of the projectile from right brow to left cheek unless Jodi was laying on the floor shooting him...an outlandish scenario.

3. The shot could not have been made in the position Travis was found in the shower, so if he was shot after death in the bathroom/shower, Jodi would have had to again reposition his body in the shower after she shot him.

4. Jodi brought the gun with her and all the evidence indicates that she went with the intention of shooting Travis. Reason and logic say that shooting him would have been her first attempt to kill him. In one of her interviews she said that if she killed Travis she would have kept shooting him til he was dead -- and I think that was her intention, but the gun jammed and she had to resort to other "less humane" means. She worked the gun jam into her story during her 48 Hours interview, claiming the gun man tried to shoot her but the gun jammed so she could escape. IMO she was drawing on her actual experiences and observations when coming up with these stories so as to try to make them believable.

5. ME testified that the trajectory of the bullet could have caused blood to enter mouth and nose. This fits the blood spray and patterns around the sink which cannot really be explained any other way -- stabbing in the heart would not cause that kind of spray and would not cause blood in mouth and nose. Although I do think there was some testimony that the patterns could have been caused by Travis being stabbed while he was positioned at the sink.

6. Finally, although we cannot take any of Jodi's statements as the truth, I believe that her account of the intruders was her way to telling pretty accurately what happened to Travis. She wanted to make it believable so she gave an account that she actually believed could have happened -- i.e. Travis being shot and still surviving and able to lift himself up on all fours. To make it as believable as possible, I think she relied on what she actually observed as reality ..Travis was shot and was badly injured but did not die or lose consciousness. She left out the stabbing to the heart and throat slice because she wanted to claim he was still alive when she left.

The only thing that was holding me back from believing in this sequence was the ME's testimony. But there are so many other factors that support him being shot first, and after listening to the ME testimony again, it's not as conclusive as I thought. In fact, he first says that the head would would have "likely" been incapacitating "rapidly" (not immediately). So I conclude that the ME made a mistake with his opinion about the sequence. The fact that the shell casing had no blood does not bother me at all -- Jodi poured water over stuff, and it could have been kicked around or cleared from the gun after the fact.

I completely agree with your points and believe this account is quite close to what actually happened.
It is important to understand that the initial gunshot, all of the anterior chest wounds and all of the back wounds were NOT immediately disabling. They were bloody and they hurt but TA would have been able to speak and move.
It was the vicious slice of the throat that was quickly lethal but extremely bloody. JA was not prepared for this degree of blood bath. Indeed she thought a quick gunshot to the head would have been “the ticket”. Consequently JA had to remain at the crime scene for up to 2 hours in order to clean up. A great deal of TA’s blood volume went down the shower drain. I believe she tried to mop up the huge amount of blood on the carpet and tile. She did not have time or presence of mind to wash down the walls.
Her blood drenched shoes and clothes were bundled and probably jettisoned or burned in the AZ northern desert while she was in route to SLC. The knife and gun are also located somewhere in the AZ northern desert. She made her exit around 7PM from Mesa which was during sunlight. I suspect her bag was filled with bloody clothing. Her wounds were cleaned up along with hair and fingernails.
Her finger wounds were caused by slippage of hand along the shaft of a slick bloody knife. Those wounds were on her left hand indicative that her knife attacks were made with her dominant hand.
Had JA known the gunshot would have not been sufficient then she would have certainly worn gloves.
First to protect her hands and second to prevent bloody
fingerprints.

 

[Zeno49]

I am close to the same conclusion as you nursebeeme...here goes:

I think he was stabbed in the heart while he was crouched in the bottom of the shower and he fell trying to get up to defend himself.

When she saw he didn't die from the initial chest wound and he was able to stand and try to get out of the shower, she started to stab at him and this is when he received his defensive wounds to the hands.

I think he was able to walk get outof the shower and collapsed at the sink where he aspirated onto the sink and mirror. She probably began stabbing at him again and this is where he received the wounds to the back of his head.

He then somehow made his way to the bedroom and collapsed again face down and this is where he tried to crawl to get away from her and she began stabbing at his back....the low blood spatter up the hallway walls happened here. She then cut his throat while straddling his back and drug him back to the bathroom...all the drag looking marks on the tile hallway and on the baseboards of the wall leading back to the bathroom happened here.

She placed him back in the shower and went to get the gun from her purse and delivered the final shot at this time.

This is all my opinion only.

Why after killing someone, dragging a corpse into a shower stall with running water taking the time or effort to then return to a purse, take out a gun, and shoot the corpse? JA was in a state of panic since she had never brutally murdered before. Once TA was FINALLY DEAD she quickly set about to prepare for her exit which meant she had a lot of unexpected cleaning up to do.

Every novice murderer should know - shoot first! then stab!

 

[Zeno49]

You have a very interesting point. Did she bring the gun with the intent to use it first? Did she think it would be too loud and went and got a knife while Travis was showering? :what:

But, if that is the case, why would she shoot him after putting him in the shower? What motive would she have for that? He is already lifeless or most of the way dead when she drags him into the shower... did she not want him to suffer anymore?

I still do not change my vote. There is blood all over the damn place and I think something didn't go as planned.

She shot him first and ran to get a knife (it would take a whole 30 seconds maybe, I can get through my house in less time). When she came back to his bedroom he was in the hallway and she attacked him there. There wasn't much of a struggle but she definitely slit his throat in the bedroom right where there is a HUGE blood stain in the carpet. Then dragged him back to the bathroom.

If you put a stopwatch to the envisioned crime sequence - I believe???- she had about 2 minutes 30 seconds from the crouch pose in the shower to the final 30 knife wounds and neck slash which is then followed up by the final scene of lifelessTA being drug into the bathroom. Try to do this all in about 2 minutes by staging an reenactment!!!
I just do not think JA had any time - nor the presence of mind - to leave the active crime scene in order to obtain a knife.
I believe she was armed both with the gun and knife while she was taking the pre-murder shower photos.

 

[Zeno49]

Jody Arias had no knowledge where the heart was located in an erect or sitting male.
It is also important to understand that none of her thrusts hit his heart. TA's heart was pristine. There was only ONE penetrating wound into the thorax and that wound resulted in a cut superior vena cava. This structure is up and to the right of the heart. It is also a low pressure vessel but it does carry a large volume of blood return to the heart.

 

[danzn16]

Jody Arias had no knowledge where the heart was located in an erect or sitting male.
It is also important to understand that none of her thrusts hit his heart. TA's heart was pristine. There was only ONE penetrating wound into the thorax and that wound resulted in a cut superior vena cava. This structure is up and to the right of the heart. It is also a low pressure vessel but it does carry a large volume of blood return to the heart.

I would agree that JA would have no direct medical knowledge of the EXACT location of the heart. However even a child knows the approximate location of the heart. All you have to do is simulate the pledge of allegiance and there you go. A stab wound to the chest is a stab to kill, there is no other way around it. You are correct that the superior vena cava is not the heart location. I had heard that TA was also stabbed in the heart but I can not be certain as I have not watched the trial and have just went off WS and news reports. However the superior vena cava is the largest vein in the body and and injury to it results in death without immediate medical treatment. It returns blood back to the heart. It is a vein so it is not as muscular as an artery and therefore cannot splint itself as well and can therefore be more serious than an injury to an artery like a lay person may assume. Very few patients with an SVC injury even make it to the trauma center alive. Although JA had no extensive anatomy knowledge, I really don't think its relevant because even a lay person knows a stab to the chest is a kill shot.

 

[anagrammy]

I have read all the scenarios with great interest. I have an alternate theory of the sequence of events. I agree with the poster who suggested a hostage situation for an extended period of time--only I would add with torture. Look closely at the picture of TA on the bed with his hand raised. He is restrained in that photo. You can see duct tape on the headboard and on his arm. Look closely at his face--pain/fear.

Testimony was given by the ME that some of the blood in the bedroom was much older.

She let him get into the shower to clean up--at gunpoint. You can see him applying pressure to the chest wound in one of the photos. You can see abrasions on his back--she dragged him around while he was bound. This is why there are no photos of his chest--the first pic a woman takes of a guy she loves who has been working out.

These photos are her serial-killer momento photos. She plans to kill him but wants to have pics of him to memorialize how handsome he was-- and what she had the power to do to him for revenge. She especially wants that picture when he realizes what danger he is in.

It is important to psychopaths to know that their victim knew he was going to die and knew who was killing him/her. This is why prisoners have developed methods to deliver a slow death with their victim viewing entrails or blood so that they look horrified. "Otherwise," said my informant, "the moment of revenge doesn't last."

Jodi was full of hate and wanted to review Travis' before-and-after photographs. If it had gone as planned, it would have been tidy. It would have been easy to clean up after and the bathroom provided great lighting so she could catch the autoshots of him dying. All she had to do was point the camera and it would keep taking photos.

She got to hear him beg for mercy, got to see him suffer and was ready to photograph him dying. Because she's an inexperienced murderess, she didn't know how hard it is to kill a healthy, strong male.

Regarding her demeanor, it continues to amaze me that women murderers are able to make people believe they can't possibly have done such a thing. My father was murdered and nobody would even investigate his death because his second wife was a charming southern belle. She killed him by smashing his skull with a corningware coffeemaker and then claiming that this frail old man fractured his own skull by falling on a coffeemaker.

Glad to be here. I'm a retired paralegal and love to watch trials on TV (still missing Court TV).... I might quit though if this one goes free. After OJ and the Casey Anthony case, I lost my faith in American Justice. Fortunately, karma caught OJ. I'm just hoping that the same thing will happen there.

 

[AndreaBingham]

I can't believe that anyone would argue about the sequence of events and go against the medical examiner. Unless you are. . .another medical examiner. . .how are you even qualified to state an opinion on this?

I'm watching JW cross examine the medical examiner and she looks like an idiot. He knows what he's talking about and she doesn't. (She's using the wrong terminology, stating things are possible that aren't, etc.) The medical examiner says he was shot last, so he was shot last. . .unless someone with some credibility says otherwise. Which, uh, hasn't happened.

 

[Debbierio]

I voted "Other" because I really have no idea. I can't come up with any scenario that makes sense so I think there's some other scenario that hasn't been discussed. I also think it's possible that there were 3 weapons instead of 2. Gun, knife for stab to heart and back, and razor or box cutter for slicing his neck.

There is no way this is going to be answered with any degree of certainty, and I don't think it makes any difference in this case. Whether he was stabbed first or shot first, there's no question that he was alive for a couple minutes while she continued to stab him, he attempted to defend himself and tried to get away.

The first blow or 2 had to have inhjured him to incapcitate him,there is no way other she would have been able to do him the way she did.. Maybe she held a gun to him, is another theroy...

 

[Debbierio]

WARNING - GRAPHIC - WARNING - GRAPHIC

http://s1321.beta.photobucket.com/u...ry/Body?&_suid=135847629216705972110079513047

Not sure if this will help make a decision on how you think he was killed. Again - very graphic.

Mel

OMG, These are so graphic. I cannot believe how his neck looked...Wow I am in shock.

 

[Truth Detector]

My own opinion is that he was too strong to have been taken 'aware', even by a very determined murderess.

He had to be attacked from behind -- quickly, viciously, and mercilessly. The back wounds which are close together were likely inflicted in very rapid succession, because when the victim eventually moved, the inflicted wounds would be more distant from each other.

After the initial stabbing he did move, to escape, but he was already shocked from the surprise, experiencing pain from the multiple stab wounds he was trying to ward off as she continued to rapidly lunge at him with the long knife, slicing his hands, arm, legs, head and torso while he was slipping around in a wet shower stall, trying to escape.

She then shot him in the head, but he wouldn't die quickly enough. So she stabbed him fatally (superior vena cava, near the cardiac base), sliced through his carotid artery, jugular vein and airway. He bled out very rapidly, finally ceasing to breathe and move. These wounds are documented photographically and in the autopsy report.

Try as she might, Jodi cannot explain these away.

 

[Debbierio]

I agree 100% with Nurse. No way do I think he was shot first -- mainly based on the shell casing and how it landed on blood. If she shot him first, there would have been blood all over the casing.

JMHO

Mel

Did they say how big the knife was? just curious. Thanks

 

[Debbierio]

where all the other pictures that were take on the day of the killing, are they posted somewhere here?

Thank you

 

[dgfred]

I can't believe that anyone would argue about the sequence of events and go against the medical examiner. Unless you are. . .another medical examiner. . .how are you even qualified to state an opinion on this?

I'm watching JW cross examine the medical examiner and she looks like an idiot. He knows what he's talking about and she doesn't. (She's using the wrong terminology, stating things are possible that aren't, etc.) The medical examiner says he was shot last, so he was shot last. . .unless someone with some credibility says otherwise. Which, uh, hasn't happened.

Well, maybe a few medical examiners giving their opinion have been wrong before. Have you ever seen someone with a limb/nail/spike/arrow/etc that snicks their brain but they are able to move at least?

The lead investigator sure believed the shot was first... he said so.