Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[vikvaliant]

I do feel sorry for this jury, too.

I think this jury has it pretty easy. It's a case where the evidence is overwhelming, as far as determining guilt, because of everything she did before and after she got there.

I was going to say I feel sorry for them having to view those photos and listen to the testimony, but a lot of folks here have too. In that case I feel sorry that anyone had to view these photos and see/hear how much TA suffered. And I feel sorry for TA most of all.

Personally, I believe the prosecutor went with stabbing first because it makes her self-defense scenario impossible. Once she slit his throat (the one undisputed wound that everyone agrees would incapacitate TA in seconds) she could have easily escaped. Instead she dragged him back into the bathroom and shot him in the head.

In the gunshot first scenario. JA can say the gun did not stop him. She had to use the knife to fight for her life and only the throat wound stopped TA. In this scenario, the fatal throat wound is the last wound inflicted and the only fatal wound.

One fatal wound is key to her self-defense story. Two fatal wounds means she could have escaped.

The difference between the two scenarios is what could decide the death penalty. I don't believe this is a guilty or innocent type of trial. It's a death or no death trial.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

The chest stab was also fatal.

 

[vikvaliant]

The chest stab was also fatal.

The ME testified that the chest stab hit a vein not an artery. And I'm pretty sure he said it was blood going back to the heart, not out, so the blood loss wouldn't be as severe- his words. The ME also testified that the gunshot and throat cut are the two wounds that would incapacitate TA in seconds. Though, I'm with the folks who believe TA was shot first in the shower. Not stabbed first. And that the gunshot did not incapacitate him immediately.

By saying JA stabbed first, her self-defense claim falls apart after the throat wound. She cannot claim self-defense after TA's throat was cut. A photo shows her standing and TA down. She could have escaped between that point and shooting him in the bathroom.

Some of the other wounds may have killed him over time but they weren't deadly enough to prevent him from moving around, supporting her self-defense claim.

 

[Applejack]

Except her defense isnt that after 29 stabs and a gunshot, only slitting his throat stopped him (from what? Threatening to kill her because she was killing him...?). Her defense is that the stabs and slashing came after the gunshot, but she doesn't remember it and therefore cannot say the order or whether they were all necessary to save her life.

 

[Nancy_Drew]

Now I know why they say "never bring a knife to a gunfight"...because it makes everything so much more confusing! Lol...

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

The ME testified that the chest stab hit a vein not an artery. And I'm pretty sure he said it was blood going back to the heart, not out, so the blood loss wouldn't be as severe- his words.

His words? What? His words were that it was fatal, and the autopsy report also says so.

 

[vikvaliant]

His words? What? His words were that it was fatal, and the autopsy report also says so.

His words:

"With this wound to the heart he should have been able to get his hands up and defend himself."

Starting at 1:09.

Jodi Arias Trial Day 3 (Full) - YouTube

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

And? About a minute earlier, he says it's fatal. Are you denying that?

 

[dizzychick]

At times, I have to remind myself not to believe her, but it's so hard when her narrative is the only one we know. We do know it's not true, but I can't help using it to base my theories of the truth upon. Some people on WS don't even believe they had sex. Some don't even believe she arrive at 4am. These might be small details I take for granted as true.

Jodi is the type of person who would say, "Depends upon what the definition of "is" is," so we really can't trust her to be truthful or even have a truthful perception of events if she happened to be trying to tell the truth.

I see that clearly when she refused to say she "enjoyed" the pigtails and candy sex, though she clearly sounds as if she had in the sex tape. She wanted to word play as if she had a secret synonym in her head for "enjoy."

Anyway, talking about her is getting me off track.

For me, looking at the gun stolen story, the bizarre trip through California, the gas cans, upside down license plate, roommates not seeing her rental, all the calls to Travis the night before her trip and up till Pasadena, the gas cans, and the fact that she is unseen in AZ, unseen by Travis' roommates, all lead me to premeditation whether it was knife or gun. We really can't get into her mind to know that she didn't plan to use both weapons and didn't bring both.

If she lied about using Travis' gun, she can lie about using his knife or even his toilet as far as I'm concerned. I do feel sorry for this jury, too.

the fact she has refused to admit to any obession or jealousy tells me she is lying and planned this crime. There is overwhelming evidence she was totally obsessed yet she denies this fact, like the gun and I noticed she was about to lie about the messages left in that magazine too but the prosecutor cut her off befre she could.. just another lie to add to the hundreds of others

 

[danzn16]

The ME testified that the chest stab hit a vein not an artery. And I'm pretty sure he said it was blood going back to the heart, not out, so the blood loss wouldn't be as severe- his words. The ME also testified that the gunshot and throat cut are the two wounds that would incapacitate TA in seconds. Though, I'm with the folks who believe TA was shot first in the shower. Not stabbed first. And that the gunshot did not incapacitate him immediately.

By saying JA stabbed first, her self-defense claim falls apart after the throat wound. She cannot claim self-defense after TA's throat was cut. A photo shows her standing and TA down. She could have escaped between that point and shooting him in the bathroom.

Some of the other wounds may have killed him over time but they weren't deadly enough to prevent him from moving around, supporting her self-defense claim.

It hit the superior vena cava which is the largest vein in the body. Veins are more damaging than arteries because arteries are more muscular and can splint themselves off in some cases. Veins just pour out, especially one that is so vital. It was most definitely a deadly injury. But yes this one would take some time, maybe that's the confusion because its not as immediate as the throat slice and gun shot?

 

[salberg7]

First time poster, long time member. Here is what I think happened :
Pic @ 5 :30pm of Travis in the shower, looks surprised & scared
Next pic he is sitting down in the shower. I believe in this pic he was startled, trying to get out of the shower & he slips on the water & his fallen position gives her a perfect stab. This is where I believe she stabbed him in the heart, hitting the pericardial sac & supervior vena cava, he manages to get up, staggers to the sink not to look at himself but simply for support, he coughs, thus the blood spatter at the sink. She is behind him stabbing him in the back. He turns to flee, staggers down the hallway, (higher blood stains) he's leaning on the wall, he falls, rolls on back, thus defensive wounds to his feet, he manages again to get up on all fours (her statement he says "I can't feel my legs") , he gets to bedroom/hallway threshold, she straddles him & slits his throat. Much blood here. She drags him back to the shower, he begins convulsing & the animal who is Jodi Arias shoots him in the head, using his tassle pillow as a silencer. He is dead now, no blood along cerebral/sinus bullet track as he has lost all his blood volume. She showers at this point, then gets him him the shower. All the while the water (shower) was running, thus the high water stains on the storage boxes. She throws the camera in with the bedding, probably lost track of it as her time to get out of there was running out as the roommates were due home, washes the camera & gets the heck out of there.
This woman disgusts me. Here total disregard for the justice system, her lack of respect to Mr. Martinez, & the fact that she has never shown remorse or said "I'm sorry" to Travis' family makes me sick. Death penalty or LIP, neither matters to me as long as she gets to suffer knowing what she did for the rest of her miserable life.
It doesn't matter to the case what sequence his death occurred, both are considered cruel for premeditated murder but this is my two cents. She is evil through & through.

 

[katydid23]

First time poster, long time member. Here is what I think happened :
Pic @ 5 :30pm of Travis in the shower, looks surprised & scared
Next pic he is sitting down in the shower. I believe in this pic he was startled, trying to get out of the shower & he slips on the water & his fallen position gives her a perfect stab. This is where I believe she stabbed him in the heart, hitting the pericardial sac & supervior vena cava, he manages to get up, staggers to the sink not to look at himself but simply for support, he coughs, thus the blood spatter at the sink. She is behind him stabbing him in the back. He turns to flee, staggers down the hallway, (higher blood stains) he's leaning on the wall, he falls, rolls on back, thus defensive wounds to his feet, he manages again to get up on all fours (her statement he says "I can't feel my legs") , he gets to bedroom/hallway threshold, she straddles him & slits his throat. Much blood here. She drags him back to the shower, he begins convulsing & the animal who is Jodi Arias shoots him in the head, using his tassle pillow as a silencer. He is dead now, no blood along cerebral/sinus bullet track as he has lost all his blood volume. She showers at this point, then gets him him the shower. All the while the water (shower) was running, thus the high water stains on the storage boxes. She throws the camera in with the bedding, probably lost track of it as her time to get out of there was running out as the roommates were due home, washes the camera & gets the heck out of there.
This woman disgusts me. Here total disregard for the justice system, her lack of respect to Mr. Martinez, & the fact that she has never shown remorse or said "I'm sorry" to Travis' family makes me sick. Death penalty or LIP, neither matters to me as long as she gets to suffer knowing what she did for the rest of her miserable life.
It doesn't matter to the case what sequence his death occurred, both are considered cruel for premeditated murder but this is my two cents. She is evil through & through.

GREAT first post. :welcome: to WS. :fireworks: Amazing that you waited so long to do so. :thewave:

 

[salberg7]

That's why he had time to try to get away, because it was the superior vena cava vein vs artery, thus he had several minutes more vs an arterial cut where he would have bled out more quickly. (I am a RN too). Remember, his pericardial sac was nicked, so his heart was constricting and unable to pump effectively & thus blood leaked into his pleura & he coughed. He died a slow, miserable death, poor Travis. He definitely tried to fight her. I think the GSW was last. She didn't think he was dead as he had a perimortal seizure due to cardiac arrest & cardiovascular shock. She shot him to finish him off.

 

[salberg7]

Thank you. I was too nervous to post because all of you are so sophisticated & knowledgeable. I joined way back when Morgan Harrington disappeared.

 

[vikvaliant]

It hit the superior vena cava which is the largest vein in the body. Veins are more damaging than arteries because arteries are more muscular and can splint themselves off in some cases. Veins just pour out, especially one that is so vital. It was most definitely a deadly injury. But yes this one would take some time, maybe that's the confusion because its not as immediate as the throat slice and gun shot?

Exactly. I am talking about the wounds the ME said would take him out in seconds. The gunshot (according to the ME) and the neck wound (according to everyone).

Under the scenario presented by the state JA cannot claim self-defense. TA would have been incapacitated after the neck wound- which everyone agrees was fatal within seconds. Rather than escape she drags him into the bathroom and shoots him. That's why I believe the state went with this sequence. For the death penalty. Not just to convict her.

 

[salberg7]

I also think she brought both the gun & the knife with her (premeditation). It was her grandfather's stolen gun & the knife she had previously used to slash his tires, so she was familiar with the grasp & feel of the knife. None of the knives in Travis' home were the death weapon. The knife was her personal stash. She had no time to run downstairs to get a knife. Premeditation with a capital (as in "Punishment ") "P". This woman is going down.

 

[LambChop]

That's why he had time to try to get away, because it was the superior vena cava vein vs artery, thus he had several minutes more vs an arterial cut where he would have bled out more quickly. (I am a RN too). Remember, his pericardial sac was nicked, so his heart was constricting and unable to pump effectively & thus blood leaked into his pleura & he coughed. He died a slow, miserable death, poor Travis. He definitely tried to fight her. I think the GSW was last. She didn't think he was dead as he had a perimortal seizure due to cardiac arrest & cardiovascular shock. She shot him to finish him off.

:welcome4::welcome::wagon:

I must say that's it in a "nutshell" as Smelly Squirrel might say. lol

Really great post. You need to do more. Thanks

 

[LambChop]

Exactly. I am talking about the wounds the ME said would take him out in seconds. The gunshot (according to the ME) and the neck wound (according to everyone).

Under the scenario presented by the state JA cannot claim self-defense. TA would have been incapacitated after the neck wound- which everyone agrees was fatal within seconds. Rather than escape she drags him into the bathroom and shoots him. That's why I believe the state went with this sequence. For the death penalty. Not just to convict her.

Plus at the point he was by the sink he had to have been facing it, leaning or kneeling, he was absolutely not in a position to stop her from leaving that room. There were two exits, the hallway and the closet. She could have left, easily. If she were trying to survive she would have left.

JM is painting a picture for the jury to show them who she really is. All her glib remarks and disrespect to an officer of the court will do her in. She is unable to grasp that the character she is suppose to present on the stand is a meek one, unable to defend herself. That was not what we saw whenever Juan challenged her on a lie. Defense wants LWOP, that's all they want. The State wants DP. The fog supports LWOP. Juan is just trying to "lift" the fog to show she intended to kill him all along so there was no fog.

I also think for Juan it's personal because of Jodi's attempt to ruin his reputation which has nothing to do with his death. It's as if she is still trying to kill him and is taking pleasure in it.

JMO

 

[LambChop]

I dont know but it was sure in their pictures. What is another explanation for it? and one that would also explain how the knife got into play?

I personally see no reason for her to set out to use two weapons. So the fact that two came into play, a knife in the bathroom no less, means that the knife had to get up there somehow. She had to choose to use both weapons for some reason. I believe the choice came out of necessity. And I don't believe she could have controlled Travis without binding him. She probably already knew how he said he'd react if he had another gun in his face, too, so maybe that helped in formulating her plan.

I'm just speculating, but I can't get the duct tape out of my mind, and I believe she tried to bind him and cut the tape, which led to the first stab in his chest and the spray on the mirror and sink.

The duct tape was on the laundry room floor, I believe. LE took a picture because it was in the laundry room where the sheets were found in the dryer and a load was in the washer. It does not mean it was evidence just at the time they thought it might be significant. The State did not enter it so it has no significance in the crime. jmo

 

[scorpio24]

First time poster, long time member. Here is what I think happened :
Pic @ 5 :30pm of Travis in the shower, looks surprised & scared
Next pic he is sitting down in the shower. I believe in this pic he was startled, trying to get out of the shower & he slips on the water & his fallen position gives her a perfect stab. This is where I believe she stabbed him in the heart, hitting the pericardial sac & supervior vena cava, he manages to get up, staggers to the sink not to look at himself but simply for support, he coughs, thus the blood spatter at the sink. She is behind him stabbing him in the back. He turns to flee, staggers down the hallway, (higher blood stains) he's leaning on the wall, he falls, rolls on back, thus defensive wounds to his feet, he manages again to get up on all fours (her statement he says "I can't feel my legs") , he gets to bedroom/hallway threshold, she straddles him & slits his throat. Much blood here. She drags him back to the shower, he begins convulsing & the animal who is Jodi Arias shoots him in the head, using his tassle pillow as a silencer. He is dead now, no blood along cerebral/sinus bullet track as he has lost all his blood volume. She showers at this point, then gets him him the shower. All the while the water (shower) was running, thus the high water stains on the storage boxes. She throws the camera in with the bedding, probably lost track of it as her time to get out of there was running out as the roommates were due home, washes the camera & gets the heck out of there.
This woman disgusts me. Here total disregard for the justice system, her lack of respect to Mr. Martinez, & the fact that she has never shown remorse or said "I'm sorry" to Travis' family makes me sick. Death penalty or LIP, neither matters to me as long as she gets to suffer knowing what she did for the rest of her miserable life.
It doesn't matter to the case what sequence his death occurred, both are considered cruel for premeditated murder but this is my two cents. She is evil through & through.

TERRIFIC post! :great: I'm new, too, and have felt the same way about posting, but everybody has been SO welcoming!

I'm not a medical expert, nor do I anticipate becoming one during this trial, so I leave all those discussions to others with more medical training and knowledge. (I took earth science and space science in college. Biology lab was not my friend.) But, logically, I just cannot see JA, after ALL the planning she did (gas cans, license plates, alibi, hair dye, rental car, etc.) using the ONE weapon mentioned in DOCUMENTED POLICE REPORT: the .25 caliber handgun. She'd already successfully slashed and flattened 12 tires. She felt comfortable with a knife, maybe a little cocky. It just wasn't as easy as they make it look in the movies. (Her favorite movies on mySpace include Edward Scissorhands and House of Flying Daggers. Oh, boy.)

I believe this trial, for her, is about killing Travis' spirit. She cannot express remorse because she has none. She HATED him at the end. She was obsessed and could NOT move on. Now, she wants nothing "good" of TA to remain. She wants to destroy his reputation and legacy just like she destroyed his body in that bathroom. The problem is, he WAS a really good guy and people still love him. I cried at the end of the sex tape when he sang. Laughed because he sounded so sweet and funny, then cried because I remembered he was dead.

Anyway, that's my long-winded :Welcome1: message. Look forward to reading more of your thoughts!