Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[R.U.Kidding!]

OK, OK, What does it matter what came first!!!!
Whatever came first was ENOUGH for her to get away if it was SELF-DEFENSE.

Obviously being shot, stabbed 27 times, and having your throat slit to the point of partial decapitation was (just a little) more than she needed to do to GET AWAY IF that is all she wanted to do as she stated when she ran----but should of just kept running , not stop get a knife at the back of a closet on one foot, and go back to finish him off.

She brought the knife and the gun, and planned every part of this murder.

 

[Gypseagirl]

HLN added more crime scene photos to their slide show, I hadn't looked at the slide show for days so I don't know when these were added (but the page said updated this morning, not sure if it means anything). Anyways, with the new pics, does that change (or help confirm) anyone's thinking about what happened?

http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2013/01/03/jodi-arias-evidence-photos-nancy-grace-mysteries-day-4

My mind has not changed - I personally believe JA planned his demise. There is no doubt in my mind.
:jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail:

 

[Renee110]

Ok...I'm re-watching some of the very early days of the trial, and this morning watched the defense questioning the Medical Examiner. Around the 35 min mark in the video I'll post below, JW is grilling the ME on what he told Det. Flores about whether gun shot wound was last or first because Det. Flores testified in a previous hearing the ME told him gunshot was first. The ME is saying gunshot came last, or as he tells Juan at the 42 min mark, the gun shot came if not last, then after the defensive wounds to the hands. And he states he doesn't remember ever talking to Det. Flores. They are making a big deal out of what he told Flores and whether the shot was first or last.

This makes me think that Jodi came up with gunshot scenario being first based on Flores testifying that it was, and now her story doesn't match forensic evidence or belief.
[video=youtube;qncRtqeluHU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qncRtqeluHU[/video]

 

[Renee110]

OK, OK, What does it matter what came first!!!!
Whatever came first was ENOUGH for her to get away if it was SELF-DEFENSE.

Obviously being shot, stabbed 27 times, and having your throat slit to the point of partial decapitation was (just a little) more than she needed to do to GET AWAY IF that is all she wanted to do as she stated when she ran----but should of just kept running , not stop get a knife at the back of a closet on one foot, and go back to finish him off.

She brought the knife and the gun, and planned every part of this murder.

Right now it matter to me because if it's proven that the gunshot was last, her whole story of running to closet getting gun and not remembering knifing him 29 times is a lie. Her whole story falls apart.

 

[Captain86]

This board is moving so fast it is hard to keep up. :innocent: Someone (I think it was RealityMan) posted a while back about the position of the first bleeding photo vis-a-vis the huge blood stain on the carpet. I've puzzled about this also.

I think most of us would agree that that photo was probably taken after Travis' throat was slit. Two scenarios come to mind.

Scenario 1. Jodi had just delivered the coup de grace in the hallway. Travis was in his final death throes and was still alive for the photo. His right arm is up (fading defensive posture), blood from cut vessels immediately flows down his shoulder. Head is elevated instinctively to minimize exposure of neck to assailant. In final move to continue 'fleeing', he uses his feet to slide backward toward the bedroom onto the carpet before succumbing.

Scenario 2. Jodi delivered the coup de grace on the carpet. Travis succumbs. Jodi makes an initial attempt to move Travis toward the shower by pushing him off the carpet. The position of Travis' left foot might be consistent with having been pushed toward the shower. Perhaps she is propping his head up with her leg...

I'm struggling with both of these scenarios. In scenario 1, I'm not sure it would be possible to lift one's head with such a deep knife wound. The head is pretty heavy and intact frontal muscles are required. For scenario 2, it seems more reasonable that Jodi would have been pulling Travis to the shower by his feet to get him off the carpet. Or perhaps she pulled him by his right foot, and the left foot lagged as depicted in the photo.

Other thoughts?

Dave

I agree. This thread is really moving fast. I took the weekend off and missed like 20 pages. I can't possibly make that up.

I think 2 is the most likely. I don't see him moving much after the throat wound. One of the Crime Scene photos (I can't find it on HLN) shows a couple of large smears on the wall (purple smears) near an outlet at the bedroom end of the hall. They give the impression that he either went down there or was scooting along the wall at that point. It is pretty obvious that most of his bleeding occurred onto the carpet at the end of the hall. The real question is what position he fell in after she cut his throat. We all seem to agree/think that he was face down, which would make it more logical that she drug him by his feet, but just because that makes the most sense to most of us doesn't mean that is what happened.

It appears that her foot maybe under his head which give the appearance that he lifted it. If she had just cut his throat it would have been spraying more. The blood draining from the brain through the Jugular Veins and the blood being pumped out through the Carotids would not leave him much time or strength to move around much. The blood loss would be rapid and massive. So, I think it ended where she cut his throat, which appears to be on the edge of the carpet.

The camera did get dropped or knocked out of her hand at some point, the question is when. Unfortunately for her, one of them kept kicking/hitting it and it kept a running clock of the events.

 

[danzn16]

That doesn't answer my question about how she gets that head wound trajectory in the shower after she slits his throat. No it's not all speculation. There should be evidence backing up our opinions.

I ran into the side of a door at full speed once [someone was chasing me]. So I know what it feels like. I got two black eyes even though I hit my forehead. I didn't pass out but was very stunned by it but still aware of my environment, which, happily, was a friendly one. I was in no mental state to fight off an attacker.

IMO

No one knows where he was shot. And we definitely don't know if he was shot in the shower. She could have been standing above him with the pillow and she's just a bad shot. There is no proof of anything with the trajectory or the location of where he was shot.

 

[danzn16]

Not even the ME agrees with the apparent conclusion of this article that the gunshot wound was a fatal wound.

During his testimony, the ME said that the bullet passed through TA's brain and the gunshot wound was a "serious injury." However, he also said the gunshot wound "would not immediately incapacitate or kill him." That's a direct quote from the ME.

He had said for an hour and a half before that that is was incapacitating and fatal. And directly after that sentence you just quoted the lawyer asked him to elaborate and he said it was incapacitating and fatal. I think he misspoke because he made it very clear immediately after that.

 

[Gypseagirl]

OK, OK, What does it matter what came first!!!!
Whatever came first was ENOUGH for her to get away if it was SELF-DEFENSE.

Obviously being shot, stabbed 27 times, and having your throat slit to the point of partial decapitation was (just a little) more than she needed to do to GET AWAY IF that is all she wanted to do as she stated when she ran----but should of just kept running , not stop get a knife at the back of a closet on one foot, and go back to finish him off.

She brought the knife and the gun, and planned every part of this murder.

i agree....I believe she put way too much thought into his dismise.
:jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail:

 

[danzn16]

Oh but it was hemorrhagic, just not in the brain. The brain was apparently uninjured with well preserved and symmetrical cerebrum and the dura mater intact. The brain slides showed no signs of trauma.

But, he bled profusely through the frontal sinus wound into his nose and mouth. We can see it in the sink and the floor in front of the sink.

IMO

He said on trial that it was not hemorrhagic like the other wounds. The other wounds from stabs he said they were done before death because of their hemorrhagic nature. The gun shot was not the same.

 

[sacrablue]

I think a bit more than that might be helpful.

I've not yet heard a good reconstruction of the death sequence by the knife-firsters. Gun-firsters have offered up detailed analyses of both the minute-by-minute timeline that fits the photographic evidence, as well as the sink blood. I'd like to hear the same from knife-firsters.

The sink blood is very compelling, at least to my eyes. The blood appears to be dripping down from a primary source, as well as being expelled.

Two questions about the sink blood:

1) How do you see a chest wound reasonably contributing to this blood pattern?

2) What death sequence do you see that would have Travis reasonably turning his back to his attacker?

Please note that the number of droplets would suggest he spent a fair amount of time facing the mirror, at least in terms of the overall timeline of the attack.

Dave

Reading up...if the chest wound to heart area allowed blood to leak into his lungs, I can see coughing of material in lungs could give similar results. But, if that happened to me, I see no reason to go to vanity plus I am not going to turn my back to someone with a knife.

 

[danzn16]

Last picture she takes of him, he is sitting in the shower and she is taking the picture from above. She is standing.

This is the picture just before the ceiling picture.

She is in the perfect position to get that trajectory shot.

She shoots him from above and the shot goes through his face from top to bottom and right to left.

The blood spatter is in the shower.

He is stunned but not passed out. Brain is intact. It's a facial wound.

She shoots again and the gun jams, just like she told us in the Ninja story.

Now she needs to change weapons. She gets the knife while he makes his way to the sink.

You know the rest.

Now you have a stolen gun carried from California and used in Arizona for a head shot. Head shot fails so weapon is changed. Premeditated murder.

IMO

This is absolutely 100% all your own conjecture and opinion. We do not know if he was shot after this picture. There is no way to know. There is no proof. You are dismissing solid physical evidence and choosing a scenario that you concocted in your head. I don't see how this is proof of your theory and it would absolutely not be allowed in court.

 

[Mountaindreamer]

Does anyone have any idea why Jodi would take a file and sit on it? I saw that on HLN and found it suspicious

 

[danzn16]

In my opinion, almost all of the evidence points to the gunshot coming first except the ME's testimony that TA would not have been able to sustain his defensive wounds after suffering from the gunshot wound. Some experts believe the ME is wrong, And so do I.

Oh and the blood spatter analyst which also said that the gun shot was last from the blood evidence. I guess throw that evidence out too.

To me, the most compelling evidence of the gun delivering the first blow is the sequence of the photos when viewed according to their time stamps. I believe just by looking at the photos you can see that JA was not ever threatening TA with a weapon all of the way through the last accidental shower photo. Yet, 44 seconds after the last shower shot, JA snaps the bathroom ceiling photo. And 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling photo, JA has inflicted all of the stab wounds on TA, including the final neck slash.

Now look at TA's position in the last shower photo. JA is holding the camera in her right hand. She has not yet threatened TA with a weapon. As she moves in for the kill, which weapon is she most likely to use?

I believe it has to be the gun, for all of the reasons I mentioned previously.

Again all 100% conjecture. You don't know the sequence of events from photos taken before and after the attack and random blurry photos in the middle. You don't know if TA got out of the shower before the attack or was still in the shower. You simply don't know. This is not have you build evidence in a case, from conjecture and opinion and speculation... and ignoring other physical evidence.

 

[danzn16]

No. I just try to put myself in the shoes of the Jury.

That Jury in Fla. was not stupid like everyone here says.

They did the right thing with the evidence they were given.


IMO

oh.my.word. Casey Anthony's jury did the right thing?

And now I understand everything about why you have the opinions you do.

 

[sacrablue]

Does anyone have any idea why Jodi would take a file and sit on it? I saw that on HLN and found it suspicious

To flatten it, her butt hurts, to hide it, to remind herself......

 

[danzn16]

'well preserved' were the ME"s words in the autopsy.

All the knife wounds were fairly superficial except for two.

Doubtful she could have washed away all of the blood spatter from the gun if he was shot in the bathroom. There is blood spatter from the impact wounds [knife] in the bathroom.

No one's told me yet how she gets that trajectory if he's lying down when shot.

IMO

umm... the ME said the knife wounds went deep enough to hit bone in most if not all of them on his back. The chest wound punctured his SVC. These are not defined as "superficial".

Where did you see that there was splatter from the knife wounds? I just remember them saying it was from possible aspiration or anything that could cause splatter and them not speculating on the cause.

You don't know if TA was laying down or propped up by JA. We do no there was no stipling or gunshot burns on his face. If she shot him first and in the shower there would have been evidence of this, unless she was holding a pillow too to shoot through something. But she had a camera in her hand too, and a gun too so you think, so I don't think she could also hold another object. Another reason I don't think he was shot first.

 

[Captain86]

I agree, I tend to think his vision in that eye was destroyed by the bullet injury, if you look at the overhead picture of him in the shower you can see his right eye is somewhat open and the eye looks bulged, if the shot had been last I wouldn't think the right eye itself would seem much different than the left, would it?

From the point of entry into the skull and passing through the R Frontal Lobe and the re-entering the facial skeleton through the Ethmoid Bone, the bullet passed between the Optic Nerves. It traveled away from the medial and posterior aspects of the eye, so the eye itself was in no danger. The eye socket is not as deep as most people tend to think it is. The optic nerve is basically directly inferior to where the bullet entered the skull. The bullet traveled toward the middle of the inferior aspect of the Cranial Vault, so as soon as it was fired into the skull it was traveling away from where the Optic Nerve enters the eye.

 

[danzn16]

How else are you going to get the blood spray in and on the vanity? Why would you go to vanity? To look in mirror, the only way to see damage to face. Blood had to be discharged from nose, mouth and possibly wound. Travis is not standing at vanity with throat cut. Gun first.

So you guys are saying that if you were stabbed you wouldn't care what the amount of damage was to go look at it? You would only want to see the injury if it was a gun shot wound? well okay then...

And if the person that just shot or stabbed me was still in my house at all I wouldn't give a crap enough about my injury to go stare at it in a mirror. You're instinct would be to save yourself and get out of there, not to go check yourself out. The fight or flight response to an emergency situation doesn't work that way people. That curiosity phase and tending to your wounds occurs after you are sure you are safe. Each of you have admitted that the sink was close to the shower. He could have simply fallen over and the sink caught him and he used it to get up. Or JA could have been attacking him after he fell on it, etc. Again, all conjecture. But I'm pretty damn sure that in the middle of attack no right minded person is going to go check out his injury while still being attacked and/or the perp is still in his house. :banghead:

 

[danzn16]

I think a bit more than that might be helpful.

I've not yet heard a good reconstruction of the death sequence by the knife-firsters. Gun-firsters have offered up detailed analyses of both the minute-by-minute timeline that fits the photographic evidence, as well as the sink blood. I'd like to hear the same from knife-firsters.

The sink blood is very compelling, at least to my eyes. The blood appears to be dripping down from a primary source, as well as being expelled.

Two questions about the sink blood:

1) How do you see a chest wound reasonably contributing to this blood pattern?

2) What death sequence do you see that would have Travis reasonably turning his back to his attacker?

Please note that the number of droplets would suggest he spent a fair amount of time facing the mirror, at least in terms of the overall timeline of the attack.

Dave

I'm sorry but your minute by minute is pure conjecture and speculation. Totally not admissible in court. It could very well absolutely not have happened the way you expert crime analysts say it did. The blood spatter analyst gave multiple ways that blood could have been there which fits with both gun first and knife first scenarios. Being stabbed in the chest very well could have resulting in spatter and drops from the wound. Also this doesn't specify any time frame of being over the sink. You don't know the rate he was bleeding at. Again speculation. And gun firsters have given scenarios of what he could have been at the sink that didn't include checking out his appearance in the middle of the deadly attack, because seriously that is a basic explanation that's just not possible IMO.

 

[Gypseagirl]

I believe that she does not want to admit to the stabbing because it would show that she knowingly knew it would cause extreme pain to Travis and from what i understand that is one big criteria for the death penalty. I don't know if I worded that correctly. :blushing: