Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[R.U.Kidding!]

Right now it matter to me because if it's proven that the gunshot was last, her whole story of running to closet getting gun and not remembering knifing him 29 times is a lie. Her whole story falls apart.

Hi Renee,

I guess what I was trying to say was: Unless JA gets her mind back we will NEVER know what came first. She and Travis were the only ones there and Travis isn't talking. Frankly would we believe a fourth story to be the truth after all her lying?

So we are arguing over speculation--there is NO definitive proof what came first.
All the prosecution wants to do is find her GUILTY of premeditated murder.
I am sure if there was a way to PROVE beyond speculation what happened we would not be on day 35, right.

Let's put it this way if it was as she said "self-defense", just the gun shot,the 27 stabbings,or slit throat alone could have given her the ability to GET AWAY. She would certainly not have to stab him 27 times to put some distance between them for her escape.JMO

 

[RealityMan]

Now, I won't speculate on how incapacitated TA might have been from the gunshot, had it happened first. However, postmortem wounds don't bleed. The gunshot did not bleed. While the brain tissue has decomposed, any blood that escaped from the the blood vessels from the time the bullet passed through until the heart stopped beating or there was not more blood to be pumped to the brain would not have decomposed to the point that he would not have been able to identify it. Did the blood on the sink decompose to the point that he could not idnetify it? How about the blood under TA in the shower? How about the blood from on the walls or in the carpet? How the blood in the stab wounds, could he find and identify it? Blood is blood no matter where it is, in or on the body. Even with the brain decomposed the blood vessels on the inside of the skull would bleed when a bullet passed through, and that blood would be evident.

I think I agree with most of your analysis except this part about the amount of bleeding associated with the gunshot wound that would have been evident.

The autopsy report states that "[t]he wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and traverses the right anterior foss, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury (although examination of brain tissue is somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains)."

Thus, the ME indicates it is not just his finding that there is no gross evidence of "cerebral injury," but also his finding that there is no gross evidence of "significant intracranial hemorrhage" that is limited by the decomposed nature of the remains.

In other words, the ME explicitly stated that his determination that there was no gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage was limited by the decomposed nature of the remains.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

There were only 5 defensive wounds, said HLN today.

That means he was very impaired from the start of the knife fight.

IMO

You keep saying knife fight. It was a knife attack. Travis didn't have a knife.

 

[Captain86]

If JA delivered the first blow with the knife, she would've had to get much closer to TA without him noticing that she had the weapon. So she draws the knife from her left pocket with her left hand and attempts to stab at his neck in a downward motion. I'm not sure exactly which wound this would've been?

Based on the position of TA in the shower and the fact that JA was holding the camera in her right hand, I don't see how JA could've gotten into a position with the knife to deliver the stab to the heart as her initial blow.

You have come up with a scenario that she attacked him inside the shower first. You run into a problem with the blood at the sink. The distance isn't much, but the why would he go to the sink is an issue with the attack started in the shower.

Try ignoring the sitting in the shower picture. If you don't have that, come up with a scenario that fits the major elements of the crime. Let go of the camera. She had to. She could not have held it durign the attack. She only has two hands, but has two weapons and a camera, something has to go.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

This diagram shows JA was standing between TA and the sink when the bathroom ceiling photo was taken:

http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/SoulShynz9293/shower_travis_murder_pics_xtralarge.jpg

Note that the first bleeding photo is taken 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling photo. That means that 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling photo, JA has inflicted all of the knife wounds, including the final slash across the neck.

How does TA get to the sink in those final 62 seconds if JA is standing between TA and the sink with a knife, slashing and stabbing away?

You know she was actively slashing at him the whole time? Or if she was, you know that he couldn't push pass her? I don't see a problem here. Obviously, he made it down the hallway with a trail of blood, indicating stabbing prior or during the movement. Clearly, he was able to move even though he was being stabbed.

So, with a gunshot you're assuming she left the scene? Where was the knife then? Why would she have both weapons on her if she was going to use the gun? She went down to kitchen and was able to make it back in time for the dragging photo in 62 seconds? Doubtful.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

The point is I think JA was smart enough to know that a knife attack in the shower would not play out as depicted in the movie Psycho. She wanted to contain all of the evidence in the shower. So she used a gun.

Not at all! The evidence shows she's not smart about murder in the least. Her whole road trip telegraphed that she was going to do something shady. She has a very unrealistic view about how the world works. She thought leaving a voicemail for Travis would put her in the clear. She thought she could tell Flores she wasn't there even though he found her DNA there. She is not smart!

 

[molly333]

The report is has two main sections the discussion/description of the wounds and then the General Examination, which is futher divided in the External and Internal Examinations. Look at the Nervous System Examination. The first statement is about the removal of the scalp and this reveals the previously discussed injuries. This excludes those injuries from the current discussion. This is done in medical reports so that the same information is not repeated over and over again. He has completed the description of the wounds, so there is no need for him spend another page going over them. He would have included something unexpected that he encountered, but anything related to the injuries would have been discussed in the Evidence of Trauma section. He didn't do an exam of the wounds and then come back in a few days and do everything else. When he was looking at the gunshot, he did his exam of the brain and completed it. The injured section and the non-injured section are treated as separate entities. This is common practice throughout the medical field.

That's just not true. He references all previously discussed injuries in his general discussion of the systems of the body.



Under CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM he says this:


Apart from previously described traumatic injury of the superior vena cava and the carotid artery, no other vascular abnormalities are identified.


Under NECK he says this:


There is extensive sharp force injury of the upper airway as previously described. Due to decomposition, there are no demonstrable remaining hemorrhages in the strap muscles or soft tissues of the neck. The upper airway is traumatized but patent.


So he mentions all the injuries listed in the first part of his report as he goes through each system of the body.

But, under NERVOUS SYSTEM he says this:

The dura mater and falx cerebri are intact. There is good preservation of cerebral symmetry with diffuse green-gray softening of parenchyma due to decomposition. Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, foreign bodies, or previously existing natural disease. The atlanto-occipital articulation is grossly normal.

So he doesn't mention any injury to the brain. He doesn't mention any injury in his first discussion of the brain or in his discussion here under the systems. He says nothing about the right frontal lobe.

In his summary, he says Travis died of " sharp force trauma of the neck and torso." In other words, he died of stab wounds to the neck and chest. In his summary he says of the gun shot wound:

There was a single penetrating gunshot wound of the head with injuries of the skull and face.

Again, in his summary he says nothing about the existence of any brain injuries, just injuries of the skull and face.

IMO
http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/redactedtravisautopsy.pdf

 

[sacrablue]

You keep saying knife fight. It was a knife attack. Travis didn't have a knife.

He did not have his hands tied.

 

[molly333]

You keep saying knife fight. It was a knife attack. Travis didn't have a knife.

It was a knife fight even though there was only one knife.

Why didn't Travis grab her other arm and break it in two?

IMO

 

[RealityMan]

You know she was actively slashing at him the whole time? Or if she was, you know that he couldn't push pass her? I don't see a problem here. Obviously, he made it down the hallway with a trail of blood, indicating stabbing prior or during the movement. Clearly, he was able to move even though he was being stabbed.

If JA started slashing at TA in the shower, why would she stop at any point? Why would TA try to push by JA toward the sink area if she was standing between him and the sink as she clearly was when the bathroom ceiling photo was taken? In my opinion, the only reason TA would've moved toward the sink is if JA had gone down the hallway.

So, with a gunshot you're assuming she left the scene? Where was the knife then? Why would she have both weapons on her if she was going to use the gun? She went down to kitchen and was able to make it back in time for the dragging photo in 62 seconds? Doubtful.

Yes, I believe JA did leave the bathroom to get the knife somewhere in the bedroom area. I envision her running back to the bathroom through the closet with the knife to finish TA off.

 

[molly333]

I think I agree with most of your analysis except this part about the amount of bleeding associated with the gunshot wound that would have been evident.

The autopsy report states that "[t]he wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and traverses the right anterior foss, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury (although examination of brain tissue is somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains)."

Thus, the ME indicates it is not just his finding that there is no gross evidence of "cerebral injury," but also his finding that there is no gross evidence of "significant intracranial hemorrhage" that is limited by the decomposed nature of the remains.

In other words, the ME explicitly stated that his determination that there was no gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage was limited by the decomposed nature of the remains.

The way I read this is that he is not seeing anything remarkable about the brain that would lead him to believe it was injured or damaged in any way by the bullet. In other words, I read 'no significant intracranial hemmorrhage' to mean what he says later on in the sentence, the brain was not injured.

That is, the bullet did not injure the brain.

IMO

 

[RealityMan]

Not at all! The evidence shows she's not smart about murder in the least. Her whole road trip telegraphed that she was going to do something shady. She has a very unrealistic view about how the world works. She thought leaving a voicemail for Travis would put her in the clear. She thought she could tell Flores she wasn't there even though he found her DNA there. She is not smart!

It's possible that she wasn't smart enough, but I just don't think anyone who wanted to contain the evidence to the shower area would use a knife instead of a gun.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

He did not have his hands tied.

Would you call it a gun fight when she shot him? His hand weren't tied then neither.

 

[Captain86]

I think I agree with most of your analysis except this part about the amount of bleeding associated with the gunshot wound that would have been evident.

The autopsy report states that "[t]he wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and traverses the right anterior foss, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury (although examination of brain tissue is somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains)."

Thus, the ME indicates it is not just his finding that there is no gross evidence of "cerebral injury," but also his finding that there is no gross evidence of "significant intracranial hemorrhage" that is limited by the decomposed nature of the remains.

In other words, the ME explicitly stated that his inability to detect gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage was limited by the decomposed nature of the remains.

The blood and the brain tissue are going to degrade at different rates. The brain really degrades rather quickly. It isn't a real solid structure to begin with. Coagulated blood is a more solid. It will hold its shape much longer and will not degrade as quickly as the brain. The brain isn't going to instantly turn to liquid, but we see that after about 5 days the ME has trouble examining the brain and getting slides because it has degraded. The brain would not degrade before the blood inside the path of the bullet coagulated. So, regardless of the condition of the brain, if the blood was there it should still be seen.

I can see how it could be interpreted the way you are reading it, but he makes this clarification about the Cerebrum immediately after discussing the Cerebral injury. I don't believe condition of the Cerebrum should affect the evidence of blood in the cranium. The coagulated blood from the gunshot would not just disappear becasue the Cerebrum was starting to decay. Once the Cerebrum started to liquify, any passage of a bullet through it could very easily disappear. The bleeding would not be limited to the brain tissue. Where the bullet passed through the skull and the linings would also bleed. He is also referring to these areas when he states "no significant intracranial bleeding".

 

[molly333]

The blood and the brain tissue are going to degrade at different rates. The brain really degrades rather quickly. It isn't a real solid structure to begin with. Coagulated blood is a more solid. It will hold its shape much longer and will not degrade as quickly as the brain. The brain isn't going to instantly turn to liquid, but we see that after about 5 days the ME has trouble examining the brain and getting slides because it has degraded. The brain would not degrade before the blood inside the path of the bullet coagulated. So, regardless of the condition of the brain, if the blood was there it should still be seen.

I can see how it could be interpreted the way you are reading it, but he makes this clarification about the Cerebrum immediately after discussing the Cerebral injury. I don't believe condition of the Cerebrum should affect the evidence of blood in the cranium. The coagulated blood from the gunshot would not just disappear becasue the Cerebrum was starting to decay. Once the Cerebrum started to liquify, any passage of a bullet through it could very easily disappear. The bleeding would not be limited to the brain tissue. Where the bullet passed through the skull and the linings would also bleed. He is also referring to these areas when he states "no significant intracranial bleeding".

There's no blood because the bullet did not go through the brain.

The dura mater was intact.

IMO

 

[molly333]

Would you call it a gun fight when she shot him? His hand weren't tied then neither.

No because there is no real fight after she shoots him.

Only five defensive injuries out of 29 stab wounds.

IMO

 

[Captain86]

The pressure would come from the bullet. Try shooting a bullet into a watermelon.

One foot or two feet away doesn't matter to me. I was just going by the ME's testimony on the stand.

And, we know it wasn't a contact wound.

So you don't like my theory of how the bullet trajectory would be created?

Why don't you give me yours. Tell me her position and his position and match them up to the trajectory and where they were located. And, I assume he is lying down, as well, for your theory.

Describe it to me.

IMO

A 25 doesn't carry as much pressure or power as you think.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

If JA started slashing at TA in the shower, why would she stop at any point? Why would TA try to push by JA toward the sink area if she was standing between him and the sink as she clearly was when the bathroom ceiling photo was taken?

Why not? What should he be doing at that moment, if say, a knife just wen into his chest? He would be thinking completely rationally? Maybe he fell forward and she stepped back out of the way? Maybe he went to the sink to help him stand up if he was crawling? Maybe she had the hallway blocked and he could go nowhere else? Who knows, but it's not like it's implausible in any real way. If he was going to move, he had to move somewhere, and it was a few steps away.

In my opinion, the only reason TA would've moved toward the sink is if JA had gone down the hallway.

He could have of course, but no more good reason than if she hadn't.

Yes, I believe JA did leave the bathroom to get the knife somewhere in the bedroom area.

Why was it in the bedroom area at all? Why would she have it if she was going to shoot him? Why would she think a gun wouldn't be enough?

I envision her running back to the bathroom through the closet with the knife to finish TA off.

That scenario makes the 62 seconds more difficult.

So, in your scenario, she returns with the knife and he's at the sink, but you think it's hard to get by her. So how does he get past her now to go down the hall if she's in his way?

Obviously if she's in the way, he could either stay still and be attacked or try and move as far as he could, and the latter is what appears to be what happened.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

No because there is no real fight after she shoots him.

Only five defensive injuries out of 29 stab wounds.

IMO

She inflicted 15 stab wounds to the front of his body, including the hands. You think he should do better than 5 out of 15 if he weren't shot?

The same could be said if she stabbed in the heart anyway.

 

[molly333]

She inflicted 15 stab wounds to the front of his body, including the hands. You think he should do better than 5 out of 15 if he weren't shot?

The same could be said if she stabbed in the heart anyway.

Yeah. If she had just come at him with a knife, he should have won that fight.

She might have gotten one blow in but most of the knife wounds were not life threatening, only two, and one of those, the neck wound, was last, and he could have kept going for a while with the other fatal wound, svc.

Every time I play this out in my head with just a knife, Jodi ends up in a mangled bloody heap on the bathroom floor, not Travis, but maybe that's just me. :facepalm:

IMO