Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[dgfred]

After all... JA said he was shot first. Don't ya believe her? Just teasing.

 

[katydid23]

I have totally flip flopped. I now believe that she shot him first. My DH helped convince me. He doesnt think she could have held him off with a knife for that long, unless he had already been badly wounded.

Travis was a very fit kick boxer. He would have been able to fight pretty hard against a knife. And she had no injuries other than the cut from knifing him.

 

[danzn16]

I just finished reading your post and am wishing I had done so before. I appreciate your thoughtful and concise explanation of some of the physiology involved, which helps me to better get a grasp and understanding of the ME's opinion that the gunshot was not the first wound inflicted. I really have held the impression that he was ambivalent or unsure of his findings, primarily due to his statements regarding the degree of brain decomposition.

However, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the brain decomposition is irrelevant in determining the amount of bleeding that resulted from the gunshot wound. This is because any blood from the brain would have accumulated in the cranial cavity, which was as you say, still intact, and would not be affected by decomposition of the brain matter. BTW, is this accumulation of blood in the cranial cavity something that occurs almost immediately, or over a longer period of time, such as several hours, or in this case over several days? Not that this would make any difference, just curious.

Thank you, danzn for helping making sense out of something that has made no sense to me. If I have all of this straight, then I think I can understand how the ME came to his conclusion, which means of course I'll have to put all of my previous "logical" assumptions aside. Not that it will be the first time by a long shot, lol. :seeya:

Yes this is what I'm saying. Blood from the gunshot wound would be in the cranial cavity and the ME said there was a very small amount. You would only need the brain to see what brain structures were damaged due to the bullet. For your question how long does it take for blood to accumulate, almost immediately, hours or days? It would be very rapid as long as his heart is beating. His brain would hemorrhage from tearing of the anterior cerebral artery, his subdural veins and sinuses would tear (which is a massive injury btw and are a cause of death in many head injuries without other brain trauma like TA sustained). This would cause a lot of bleeding and pathology for the medical examiner to see if TA lived any amount of time after his shot because the brain is very well prefused with blood because it always has to have it for cognitive function (why people pass out if they stand up too fast and don't have enough blood in their brain for even a second). So the only scientific and medical explanation for why there would be little bleeding in TAs closed cranial cavity (that can't be washed out with water like I've seen suggested) with a gunshot wound through the face, brain, and sinuses would be if his body had little to no blood in it at the time of his gun shot. It's simple really if you know the science behind it. You can think what would a rational person do? Etc etc but the evidence can't lie.

 

[scorpio24]

Jodi's statement to Flores akin to "I would have to shoot him, I think." tells me that she did NOT want this murder to look like one SHE could commit. She wanted to stab him because, obviously, no woman her size could do it. (Or, at least, that's what she WANTED people to think.) Shooting him in the head with a gun stolen from her grandparents? Too easy to pin on her.

She had been planning this murder for a WHILE. The robbery at her grandparents house may have actually been more about the DVD player and stereo than the gun. (She needed cash to finance her trip and hocked them.) The gun? A "just in case" thing.

I don't believe Travis knew she was in the bathroom. The photos don't look posed to me at all. In fact, he probably thought Jodi was finally gone for good-on her way to Utah and (hopefully) out of his life. One photo near the end shows a look of surprise when he faces her. The last one of his face shows frustration.

I believe Jodi used the gun as a "last resort," probably, as others have said, because of the sounds the body was making and the fact that Travis didn't die quickly. He put up a fight. She HAD to make sure he was dead. She probably didn't want him to get out of the shower. Yes, the gunshot was overkill. But, by that point, her adrenaline was pumping. There was blood everywhere. He had fought her as hard as he could and more than she anticipated. She'd lost containment once already when he crawled to the hallway. It went a bit awry. In other words, it didn't play out as well as it had in her head.

If she could have kept him in the shower, there would have been VERY little evidence. She could have washed away most of it and been on her merry way. Travis' will to live provided the evidence needed to identify his killer.

 

[danzn16]

I took a self defense class held by LE officers and one day the LEO that was the instructor told us of the fights he has been in in the line of duty. He said the worst one and the one that made him fear for his life the most was a 5 foot nothing 100 pound mentally ill woman (this officer was 6 foot 200lbs). He said it was a fight for his life (and he has been in about 5 others with men but this tops then all) and that fighting a mentally ill person is on an entirely different level. They don't respond to injury like normal people, they don't care about injury to themselves so they attack all out, and seem to have extra motivation/energy when other people tire. He said don't ever underestimate someone that means to harm you just because of their size.

 

[kiminnm]

I think she did have a plan..he was in the shower she had the knife..he got out of shower..they were arguing by sink area..she lunges at him and stabs him in chest and other chest wounds..he goes down on knees..she pulls out gun shoots him.. He starts to crawl and get away down hall..she is still yelling and berating him. As he is trying to crawl away..she stratles him on his back drops camera in hallway..that's why the odd shots...then stabs him in back.she tries to grab him by his feet to drag him back .then slices his throat..ear to ear...she drags him back to shower by his feet.. turns on water...washes blood away....gathers the camera..deletes photos. Throws laundry in wash..gets outa there fast...she is still angry and in rage...

 

[danzn16]

Also I don't know if TA fought aggressively during the attack. Getting stabbed in the chest would be extremely painful and shocking and would more than likely make you fall to the ground. People react differently. Some men may overcome this pain and fight and some simple go into shock and don't fight as hard as you would think. The fact that there was blood down the hallway from him trying to escape made me think he entered more of the escape frame of mind than to fight. Fight or flight and I think he choose the latter. Or he may not have had the chance to fight if he fell down after the initial stab wound to the chest she may have begun repeatedly stabbing him in the back over and over. That's really hard to come back from.

(For example the different responses to stressful events- racing. Sometimes when a car catches fire the driver reacts appropriately and gets out and sometimes even puts out the fire himself with the inboard extinguisher. And some drivers freeze, rescue personnel have to literally pull them out of the car. Everyone would think I would jump out of that car so fast if it was on fire but you never know how you react until you're in that situation. Same for TA and a knife fight. The possibility of a girl overcoming is definitely possible and TA is not the first man to die this way)

 

[nickster]

I think JA had T tied up on the bed, not her, using her role playing bull---- and stabbed him in the heart first, he go loose, somehow got up staggering to the bathroom. He didn't die fast enough for her, so she continued stabbing him in the back,head etc. Finally shooting him. Then she dragged him in the shower. I also think after trying to clean up she took her shoes off to get out of the house with no footprints. I also think she had gloves on.

 

[nickster]

I know I've tried to think of every way this monster killed poor Travis. Hard to even imagine it. The camera shows him in the shower, and defensive wounds on hands, but he would need to be in really bad shape not to be able to subdue her.

 

[Madeleine74]

I think JA had T tied up on the bed, not her, using her role playing bull---- and stabbed him in the heart first, he go loose, somehow got up staggering to the bathroom. He didn't die fast enough for her, so she continued stabbing him in the back,head etc. Finally shooting him. Then she dragged him in the shower. I also think after trying to clean up she took her shoes off to get out of the house with no footprints. I also think she had gloves on.

That scenario, while creative, doesn't match the evidence. There was no evidence of any rope or ties being used. There were no fibers found. There was a tassel (could have come from a pillow or something decorative) found on the floor in the bathroom. There was no blood in his bed or in his bedroom. Up to the threshold between bathroom & bedroom, yes. In his BR, or anywhere on or near his bed, no.

 

[nickster]

Yes you are right Madeline, I've been thinking about this so much. I just can't believe anyone could do this. I am 62 years old, and I really want to hurt her. She's deranged as far as I'm concerned. I really think she could kill again, if the man didn't want her. She's a dangerous evil monster. Please let the jury get this right, I couldn't take another Casey A verdict.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

My gut instinct is that Jodi stole the gun from grandpa with the intention of killing Travis by gunshot. In this scenario, she shot Travis in the face first. The gun jammed and she couldn't get off another gunshot. So she ran to the kitchen and grabbed a knife and went back and attacked Travis with the knife. She kept on stabbing him on his back and chest until he fell down, and then she slit his throat to make sure he was dead upon her exit. This is all conjecture of course.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

My gut instinct is that Jodi stole the gun from grandpa with the intention of killing Travis by gunshot. In this scenario, she shot Travis in the face first. The gun jammed and she couldn't get off another gunshot. So she ran to the kitchen and grabbed a knife and went back and attacked Travis with the knife. She kept on stabbing him on his back and chest until he fell down, and then she slit his throat to make sure he was dead upon her exit. This is all conjecture of course.

62 seconds isn't enough time.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I think JA had T tied up on the bed, not her, using her role playing bull---- and stabbed him in the heart first, he go loose, somehow got up staggering to the bathroom. He didn't die fast enough for her, so she continued stabbing him in the back,head etc. Finally shooting him. Then she dragged him in the shower. I also think after trying to clean up she took her shoes off to get out of the house with no footprints. I also think she had gloves on.

She left a palm print. Though she may have put gloves on during cleanup.

 

[anagrammy]

Mormons on this board have objected to some of my posts; however, I keep waiting for the Mormons to post some facts about the significance of throat slitting and abdominal slicing in the Mormon temple ceremony.

Among the "deep truths" that Arias mentioned Travis discussed with her is the belief some Mormons still have, which Brigham Young taught, that some sins must be paid for by the spilling of one's own blood. You can google this for more details. This is the reason Utah allows a DP criminal to chose the firing squad, so that his blood may fall onto the earth in atonement for his crimes.

This explains some of the behaviors in this murder. Until 1990, Mormons promised to allow themselves to be killed in specific ways if they told about the secret handshakes (called tokens) which are demonstrated as necessary to get into heaven. One of these is throat slashing, another is abdominal slashing, which are demonstrated by a patron imitating these gruesome ways of dying on themselves. I have done this ritual myself, cupping my hands over my heart, mimicking my own thumb slitting my throat from ear to ear EXACTLY as Arias did to TA and the same to my abdomen, a long horizontal cut like she attempted on him.

The person's parts would also be scattered just like she told that inmate she had done. I am convinced this was a ritual killing including washing the body as also takes place in the temple. Here is a better description from the internet:

Before April of 1990, (temple) patrons made certain oaths along with signs showing the "penalty" for divulging the aforementioned tokens (secret handshakes). For instance, after the patron was given the "First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood," he was instructed to place his right "thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side." A promise was then made that the person would suffer his "life to be taken" rather than reveal the token. In the earlier days, members had to be more specific with their oaths. They had to promise that, if the secret was ever revealed, their throats would be "cut from ear to ear" and their "tongues torn out by their roots" (Temple Mormonism, pg.18).

Members were also compelled to make another oath accompanied by a sign representing the penalty for divulging the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. By promising that they would rather die than divulge the secret, they would draw their right hands (in cupping shape) across their chests. Again, this oath has been toned down. Earlier Mormons agreed to "have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field" (Temple Mormonism, pg.20).

A third oath was given when the patron received the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. This penalty was represented by drawing the right thumb (palm downward) quickly across the stomach area. Earlier oaths made members promise that their "bodies be cut asunder in the midst of all and the bowels gush out" should they divulge the secret given them (Temple Mormonism, pg. 20). The penalties were completely removed in 1990 although patrons still vow not to discuss the ceremony.

I do not share this information as an attempt to malign Mormonism. I left the church many years ago and don't consider this stuff worse than the crown of thorns or the crucifixion and the imitating of Christ's suffering done by so many devoted Catholic orders, or the various sexual mutilations and vows of jihad and revenge done by other religions.

This just happens to apply to this case and should be taken into consideration by sleuthers.

 

[anagrammy]

Mormons on this board have objected to some of my posts; however, I keep waiting for the Mormons to post some facts about the significance of throat slitting and abdominal slicing in the Mormon temple ceremony.

Among the "deep truths" that Arias mentioned Travis discussed with her is the belief some Mormons still have, which Brigham Young taught, that some sins must be paid for by the spilling of one's own blood. You can google this for more details. This is the reason Utah allows a DP criminal to chose the firing squad, so that his blood may fall onto the earth in atonement for his crimes.

This explains some of the behaviors in this murder. Until 1990, Mormons promised to allow themselves to be killed in specific ways if they told about the secret handshakes (called tokens) which are demonstrated as necessary to get into heaven. One of these is throat slashing, another is abdominal slashing, which are demonstrated by a patron imitating these gruesome ways of dying on themselves. I have done this ritual myself, cupping my hands over my heart, mimicking my own thumb slitting my throat from ear to ear EXACTLY as Arias did to TA and the same to my abdomen, a long horizontal cut like she attempted on him.

The person's parts would also be scattered just like she told that inmate she had done. I am convinced this was a ritual killing including washing the body as also takes place in the temple. Here is a better description from the internet:

"Before April of 1990, (temple) patrons made certain oaths along with signs showing the "penalty" for divulging the aforementioned tokens (secret handshakes). For instance, after the patron was given the "First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood," he was instructed to place his right "thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side." A promise was then made that the person would suffer his "life to be taken" rather than reveal the token. In the earlier days, members had to be more specific with their oaths. They had to promise that, if the secret was ever revealed, their throats would be "cut from ear to ear" and their "tongues torn out by their roots" (Temple Mormonism, pg.18).

Members were also compelled to make another oath accompanied by a sign representing the penalty for divulging the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. By promising that they would rather die than divulge the secret, they would draw their right hands (in cupping shape) across their chests. Again, this oath has been toned down. Earlier Mormons agreed to "have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field" (Temple Mormonism, pg.20).

A third oath was given when the patron received the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. This penalty was represented by drawing the right thumb (palm downward) quickly across the stomach area. Earlier oaths made members promise that their "bodies be cut asunder in the midst of all and the bowels gush out" should they divulge the secret given them (Temple Mormonism, pg. 20). The penalties were completely removed in 1990 although patrons still vow not to discuss the ceremony."

I do not share this information as an attempt to malign Mormonism. I left the church many years ago and don't consider this stuff worse than the crown of thorns or the crucifixion and the imitating of Christ's suffering done by so many devoted Catholic orders, or the various sexual mutilations and vows of jihad and revenge done by other religions. It is what it is.

This just happens to apply to this case and should be taken into consideration by sleuthers. This link is a Christian site, but there are others with the same exact information, your choice.
http://www.mrm.org/temple-ceremony

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Did Horn say which of the stabbings came first?

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Mormons on this board have objected to some of my posts; however, I keep waiting for the Mormons to post some facts about the significance of throat slitting and abdominal slicing in the Mormon temple ceremony.

Eh, all that is true about Mormonism, but I don't see it applying here necessarily. There's nothing about a gunshot to the head in what you said, for example. Now if say, she cut out his tongue too, then it should probably be considered.

 

[Whisperer]

What was the expert testimony regarding the blood splatter at the bathroom sink? That sure looks like gunshot splatter...to me.

What type of knife was used? Did they determine that? Was it a stilleto type of the kitchen type? I was not around when the prosecution was up....but I have not seen any references to this yet.

 

[danzn16]

What was the expert testimony regarding the blood splatter at the bathroom sink? That sure looks like gunshot splatter...to me.

What type of knife was used? Did they determine that? Was it a stilleto type of the kitchen type? I was not around when the prosecution was up....but I have not seen any references to this yet.

I read on the FB page for TA that it was said it was from aspirate from coughing it up from being stabbed and the lungs being penetrated and blood entering the lungs.I haven't been able to watch the trial. I don't know if this what was said in trial or not. But it was blood splatter analyzers talking about it and discussing the case from that days info. Any one know for sure?