Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Based on what does it look more spur of the moment? Why does it not simply look more brutal and sadistic? How can all of the other evidence just be tossed out the window due to her using a knife?

I think it's just hard for people to wrap their minds around the concept that someone would want to, or prefer to, kill someone with a knife. If she was mad enough to want to kill him, she was mad enough to want him to suffer while she was doing it. Knives are more personal than guns. With guns, you are literally detached. She may have thought shooting him would have been too kind for what he deserved, according to her. You have to try to think like a sadistic sociopath. You can't go by what you would do because you wouldn't kill someone in a jealous rage. lol

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Actually the 'gun first' is supported by the physical evidence.

The ME said the brain was too decomposed to see any wound from the bullet, but even if it was it would have been minor due to the trajectory.

The bullet went through his sinus and ended up in his cheek at an angle consistent with Jodi standing over him as he sat in the shower.

.25's jam easily, especially when fired by inexperienced shooters (they tend to 'limp wrist' it which doesn't allow the next shell to cycle into the firing chamber)

While he may have been stunned and flopping around after she shot him, she may have panicked and tried to shoot again. Unable to do so she went for her knife (perhaps in her purse) - meanwhile Travis is able to stumble to the sink area, aspirating and dripping blood from his nose and mouth.

She attacks from behind, stabbing his head and back. He goes down and tries to fend her off - hence the blood spatter around the toilet.

He tries to get away; it was probably a violent struggle with her stabbing wildly - he makes it down the hall, probably on all fours now or dragging himself and she slits his throat.

two issues:

lack of blood from the head wound

shell casing on top of the blood

first: blood from head wound, bleeding would be mostly internal and out nose and mouth plus she showered his dead body, possibly cleaning off most of blood on forehead and in the wound track post mortem

As for the shell casing, it could have been knocked onto the blood pool by Jodi's cleanup or perhaps the pooling blood welled up underneath it kind of 'floating the boat' - the location of the casing is consistent with shooting in the shower (they eject back and to the right, exactly where the casing was found)

I think she thought she would kill him in the shower and it would be neat and easy. She didn't figure on the gun jamming or Travis being strong enough to put up such a fight.

The "disorganized" crime scene is due solely to Travis's resilience and fighting back, not an indication she didn't plan this.

Did you go to medical school?

 

[geevee]

Well, let's take a moment and think about the crime scene.

She had limited time due to roommates returning home (murder occured at approximately 5:30pm = roommate is due home around 6pm); and yet, even in a RUSH, she managed to drag his body back to the shower, stuff him in there, clean herself off (I theorize that she stood in the bathroom and used the cup to pour water over herself - hence the water on the box in the closet - then stripped down, stuffed her clothes into her backpack), wipe down at least SOME of the crime scene, and only, yes ONLY leave a hair or two and a palmprint?? That does not scream "frenzy" or "disorganized" to me.

I am no expert, not in crime scenes or forensics or anything even close, but from other cases I've read about, the small amount of the evidence she did leave behind is very telling. jmo

You make many good points, but just because JM only introduced one hair with follicle and one bloody palm print does not mean that is all she left at the crime scene.

I think he saved plenty to prove everything she disputed (during rebuttal). I think he is going to lead us from the beginning in Yreka to the end back in Yreka (or Redding where she dropped off the rental) and be able to prove every single thing. I can't wait for rebuttal.

 

[Mountaindreamer]

The thing that would get me, as a juror, would be the 6 stories regarding the gun:

1.) Travis had a gun, but said it was unloaded, definitely unloaded;
2.) The gun was on the top shelf, just sitting there;
3.) The gun was in a holster;
4.) The gun wasn't in a holster;
5.) I'm not sure if it was or wasn't in a holster;
6.) The gun was maybe or maybe not loaded, because NOW Travis had loaded it in December and taken it out somewhere.

And the 4 stories with the hand cuts:

1.) Ryan must be mistaken, I never said I worked at "Margaritaville" I said I cut it on a broken glass;
2.) I cut it on a margarita glass;
3.) I cut it on a broken glass at Travis' house;
4.) I never said I cut it on a glass, I said I cut it on a piece of metal.

When the jury asked her questions and she LIED to them, in my opinion she sealed her fate. I won't say what will happen, but I do PRAY TO GOD they find her guilty of murder 1, and give her the DP. .

also dont forget the story about the gun where she said he didnt own a gun his weapons were his muscles

 

[SMK]

I think it's just hard for people to wrap their minds around the concept that someone would want to, or prefer to, kill someone with a knife. If she was mad enough to want to kill him, she was mad enough to want him to suffer while she was doing it. Knives are more personal than guns. With guns, you are literally detached. She may have thought shooting him would have been too kind for what he deserved, according to her. You have to try to think like a sadistic sociopath. You can't go by what you would do because you wouldn't kill someone in a jealous rage. lol

Quite true, but to me the knife is just too risky, as stabbing someone often leaves them - at least for a few minutes - able to fight back, grab it from you, etc.....especially if they are a male with strong upper body strength. Travis was not skinny or weak, by the looks of him.

 

[SMK]

Did you go to medical school?

Not a question of if he went to medical school or not; more a question of whether or not this is empirically true. If you look at the research, they do say head trauma due to gunshot wound would have vast amounts of internal bleeding. Of course, the ME said this was not present (???) , so there is a conflict. (I still feel she had to have wanted to shoot him first.)

 

[teledude]

If Jodi was standing outside shower and at least 2 foot away how did the bullet travel in a downward path. Her hand would have been level with his head standing 2 foot away. They only way the bullet would have traveled downward is for her to be standing right next to him while he was sitting in the shower. Travis was sitting on the shower floor facing south (her left) with the shower door open also to her left and she was 2 foot or more away. She would have had to been standing on a ladder?????? The farther away she was the more the bullet path would have risen and from 2 or more feet away the bullet path would have been straighter and not downward and have ended up in a completely different place in his brain. jmo

Well, if he were just sitting there unaware perhaps.

People tend to lower their head defensively if they perceive a threat. A fist coming at them or a gun shot, it is instinctual.

If Travis just tucked his chin slightly or moved just a little it is very conceivable that she shot him as he sat there.

Far more believable than how she could possibly have got that trajectory as he lay on the floor dead. That is inconsistent with the trajectory. (right to left shooting downward)

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Alexander was also shot in the head. Dr. Horn said the bullet passed through Alexander’s skull, passing through his right frontal lobe, and stopped in his left cheek. Dr. Horn said the gunshot wound could have been a fatal wound, but there is a chance that Alexander was shot in the head after he had already died, because there was a lack of hemorrhaging in the brain.

“He would be incapacitated… rapidly," determined Horn, and may even have been dead at the time of the shooting.

I appreciate that everyone has a right to their opinion, but I guess it's hard to accept other people's word over a doctor who has been doing this for quite a few number of years. So, yea, I am sticking with the doctor on this one. lol.

 

[SMK]

I appreciate that everyone has a right to their opinion, but I guess it's hard to accept other people's word over a doctor who has been doing this for quite a few number of years. So, yea, I am sticking with the doctor on this one. lol.

Yes, the lack of hemmorage in the brain is something that cannot be ignored when coming from an examiner.

I still think she had to have at least attempted the gun first and it jammed.

Just seems counter-intuitive to bring a gun and then cause bloody chaos with a knife with room mate due home.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Quite true, but to me the knife is just too risky, as stabbing someone often leaves them - at least for a few minutes - able to fight back, grab it from you, etc.....especially if they are a male with strong upper body strength. Travis was not skinny or weak, by the looks of him.

She didn't attack him where he was on equal footing. She attacked him when he was wet and naked. She took him by surprise. Yes, it was risky, but if JA is half the narcissist I suspect she is, I can imagine that she thought she could take him, as long as he didn't have a solid chance to fight back.

The fact that she didn't do the most ideal or perfect things, doesn't mean that it could not have happened.

 

[Captain86]

Here's what I think happened (based on the photos)

Warning: I believe this was Manslaughter

1) Jodi was photographing Travis in the Shower, dropped the camera or did something that made him really angry (or perhaps he did something that made her really angry).

So, she causes about $6000 worth of damage to his car, and he lets it slide, but she drops his camera a couple of feet onto a soft bathmat, and he attacks her? That isn't very consistent.

2) Jodi reacted and grabbed the knife that was in the bathroom (used to cut the tie-ups).

What tie-ups? I may have missed the tie-ups being entered into evidence. I remember her claiming that he declined to let her tie him-up, so she volunteered to be tied-up. Although, I don't recall the rope or whatever material they "used" to tie Jodi up being found in the apartment.

3) She began to stab him, they struggled (the defensive wounds come in here), the knife slipped.

Her testimony was that she had to leave the bathroom to get the knife, which she claims happened after she had already left the bathroom to get the gun.

4) She ran for the bedroom with a very angry-looking (but likely in-shock) Travis chasing after her (the massive amount of blood in the hallway happens here).

Most of the blood in the hallway is either on the right hand wall, all the purple smears, drips, runs, and splatter, or it is along the left baseboard where she drug him back to the shower. Most people in shock gradually become more lethargic or wonder around in a daze. The right hand wall looks like he used it to keep himself upright as he tried to make his way toward the bedroom. It does not give the appearance of a man chasing someone down the hall. You can see by the two purple smears down near the outlet just before the carpet that this is as far as Travis made it. One trip down the hall, and one drag back to the shower.

5) She grabbed the gun and pointed it at him (and I believe it was in place, not brought by Jodi - there are too many .25 calibre guns in Arizona to force the "stolen" theory).

You believe this despite there being no record of him ever purchasing a gun or any of his friends that he went to the range with knowing he owned a gun. If someone buys a new gun, they want to shoot it at the first opportunity. A .25 does not strike me as the type of gun Travis would buy. He owned a BMW, had a rather nice new camera, his closet was lined with nice, maybe not super expensive clothing, but good quality clothing, and other nice, good quality items. Then he went out an bought a .25 caliber pistol? They are not really good for defense, they are not powerful, they are not reliable. A .25 does not fit in with his persona. It would be an inexpensive gun to go shoot, but according to his friends he never did. Jodi just happens to be the only person in the world that knows that he owns it and just exactly where he keeps it. That'a a believable story.

6) He ran back to the bathroom to escape - and to retrieve the knife (again trailing large amounts of blood).

If he was trying to escape, why did he not go down the stairs? He would have been able to hear her jumping up on the shelf to retrieve the gun, which was close to the closet entrance to the bathroom. So, why, if he was closer to a viable escape route and she was at just about the furthest point from that escape route, did he run back into the bathroom to put himself closer to her? Why did he not chase her into the closet if he was so close to her during the chase. If he wasn't that close to her, why did he not pick up the knife initially when he started his pursuit and cut through the closet when he saw her cut that direction as she went into the bedroom?

7) She chased him with the gun (leaving a hand print on the blood in the wall).

If he came back to the bathroom, to get the knife (as you suggest in the previous point), why did she not shoot him then. If he ran, she did not need to chase him. She needed to call 911 and get help since he was trying to kill her.

8) They faced off in the bathroom - with a rapid sequence of events - her wresting the knife, continuing to stab him while he reached for the gun.

If he came back to get the knife, how does she have it? She now has both weapons, experienced massive blood loss, he is stabbed multiple times, decides to attack her again after the first attempt at attacking her resulted in multiple stab wounds, and all this has occurred in what, about 30 seconds? He decided that stopping th knife is less important than getting the knife? She feels she is fighting for her life, is having to stab him how many times now in this scenario, and still has not shot him?

9) After multiple stab wounds his strength depleted. He was unable to either reach or maintain a grip on the gun (he was wet and bloody after all).

I would say that he is getting weak by this point. She really should not have to cut his throat. Since all of the chasing back and forth and the wrestling around in the bathroom has significantly elevated his heart rate, with all the stabb wound he has received, he would be pumping blood out by the cup fulls. In all seriousness, he would propably already be unconscious.

10) She slit his throat, but he continued to move, so she grabbed the gun and shot him.

So, where are they at this point? Where did she slit his throat? Are you referring to purposeful movements or involuntary movements?

Time seems to be the biggest issue for this option. Too much running back and forth, up and down the hallway with multiple stab wounds.

 

[scrabble]

Poor Travis - what a shame he ever met her! May he rest in peace.

 

[SMK]

Well, if he were just sitting there unaware perhaps.

People tend to lower their head defensively if they perceive a threat. A fist coming at them or a gun shot, it is instinctual.

If Travis just tucked his chin slightly or moved just a little it is very conceivable that she shot him as he sat there.

Far more believable than how she could possibly have got that trajectory as he lay on the floor dead. That is inconsistent with the trajectory. (right to left shooting downward)

Right, so confusing and maddening. How can this be squared with what the ME says about too little hemmoraging within the brain? I hear you, and agree- it just has to square with everything.

 

[scrabble]

Poor Travis - what a shame he ever met her! May he rest in peace.

 

[teledude]

sorry, double post

 

[teledude]

Did you go to medical school?

No I am more familiar with guns. I am aware that a .25 caliber is the least powerful round and people have survived serious gunshot wounds to the head from much larger calibers.

There are actually many stories of people being shot in the head by a .25 and not being rendered unconscious due to the lack of hydro static shock.

There are many instances of people walking into the ER with arrows through their brain, gun shots, other projectiles, etc.

People can be very resilient. Especially healthy young men. It's not like in the movies where the gun goes bang and they fall dead.

A wound through the sinus would be painful but not debilitating. If it did pass through the very front of the brain it MAY have rendered him unconscious but not definitely so. Very possible he was conscious after that wound and the physical evidence supports that.

I can see no other explanation for the aspirated blood at the sink.

If she stabbed him first I doubt she would have allowed him to just go to the sink, but the blood drops and aspiration shows he did do that if only for a few seconds.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Yes, the lack of hemmorage in the brain is something that cannot be ignored when coming from an examiner.

I still think she had to have at least attempted the gun first and it jammed.

Just seems counter-intuitive to bring a gun and then cause bloody chaos with a knife with room mate due home.

This is the same chick who said she bought a gun because she was going on a camping trip with some guys. I can imagine her wanting to use the gun as back up. Or, maybe she planned to use it at first but her anger made her want to inflict as much pain as humanly possible. I kind of look at the gunshot as being a giant f^ck you, after the fact. I mean come on, this is someone who is ENRAGED. Maybe it's because I have an active imagination, but I totally see her taking the gun and shooting him as an FU. She has a thing for making the scene sound like something out of a movie. That is something one would do in movie. heh.

 

[SMK]

This is the same chick who said she bought a gun because she was going on a camping trip with some guys. I can imagine her wanting to use the gun as back up. Or, maybe she planned to use it at first but her anger made her want to inflict as much pain as humanly possible. I kind of look at the gunshot as being a giant f^ck you, after the fact. I mean come on, this is someone who is ENRAGED. Maybe it's because I have an active imagination, but I totally see her taking the gun and shooting him as an FU. She has a thing for making the scene sound like something out of a movie. That is something one would do in movie. heh.

Well, yes. But she still took one hell of a chance with the roomie due home shortly. And as she attempted to cover her tracks with the rental car and cell phone shut off, it is still baffling.

Therefore, do you think it possible that:

1. While he was getting into the shower, she snooped in his cell phone and heard something that enraged her ( a sweet 'looking forward to Cancun" voice-message from Mimi?)
OR
2. She was under the influence of drugs/alcohol which rendered her oblivious to room mate's impending return?

 

[geevee]

I have seen many people assert this about the gun being too loud: So then, why did she bother to bring it with her? Simply for the sake of subduing him so he could be stabbed?:waitasec:

Actually, yes I do, otherwise having both weapons at the scene makes no sense unless you go on a JA-minded treasure hunt.

 

[SMK]

No I am more familiar with guns. I am aware that a .25 caliber is the least powerful round and people have survived serious gunshot wounds to the head from much larger calibers.

There are actually many stories of people being shot in the head by a .25 and not being rendered unconscious due to the lack of hydro static shock.

There are many instances of people walking into the ER with arrows through their brain, gun shots, other projectiles, etc.

People can be very resilient. Especially healthy young men. It's not like in the movies where the gun goes bang and they fall dead.

A wound through the sinus would be painful but not debilitating. If it did pass through the very front of the brain it MAY have rendered him unconscious but not definitely so. Very possible he was conscious after that wound and the physical evidence supports that.

I can see no other explanation for the aspirated blood at the sink.

If she stabbed him first I doubt she would have allowed him to just go to the sink, but the blood drops and aspiration shows he did do that if only for a few seconds.

Another thing which made me always go with the gun first theory: The look on Travis' face in his last live photo:

To me, it is the face of a man who cannot believe what he is seeing. If he was seeing a gun pointed at him (and perhaps as per my other theory, even a Jodi covered with a ski mask) this would be understandable.

If a knife, I think he likely would have said, "WTF? put that down, that's not funny" - thinking she was trying to get kinky or something. Just the way it seems to me.....I actually once had a drunk friend point a knife at me, and this was my reaction, which made him quit horsing around.

Also: Even in the shower, a man can grab a woman's little wrist and wrench it. In arm power they were not matched.