Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[molly333]

Are you saying that it is your opinion that JA did not plan and carry out the murder of TA?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying given the way the evidence has been presented to date, it could be construed that way by someone else.

IMO

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying given the way the evidence has been presented to date, it could be construed that way by someone else.

IMO

The evidence is to date that JA admitted to shooting and stabbing and slashing Travis Alexander. She lied to the authorities. First, she said she wasn't in AZ at all and then her story changed that two (2) other people came into Travis' house and evidently killed him. But do remember, she was slick enough to get out from under that person holding her at gunpoint and run down the stairway and get "away". Edit: I didn't get to her THIRD STORY - Now, her beloved TA "snapped" and told her the real mean thing like a 5-year old could hold on to a camera better than you.....

 

[molly333]

It would help a lot if JM would introduce more evidence of the jealousy motive.

And, there's a lot of it that the Jury hasn't seen,yet, including testimony of his friends.

IMO

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

It would help a lot if JM would introduce more evidence of the jealousy motive.

And, there's a lot of it that the Jury hasn't seen,yet, including testimony of his friends.

IMO

We don't know yet what else may be allowed - We ALL want justice for Travis.

 

[wasnt_me]

I have posted the entire exchange many times in my previous posts and was not attempting to take his quote out of context. There is a difference between "incapacitating" and "immediately incapacitating."

There isn't a difference. Something is either incapacitating or it isn't. If the gunshot had been incapacitating, Travis would have fallen down. If it hadn't been, then the damage that sets in as a result would be what eventually incapacitates him, and eventually can be seconds later. But if he doesn't go down the instant he receives the gun shot, then the gun shot was not incapacitating.

Same thing with the stab wounds. The stab wound was not incapacitating. The bleeding out cause the incapacitating.

Maybe that's why he had trouble answering it.

 

[wasnt_me]

Question for you experts - How do we know for a fact that Travis even knew he was being photographed in the shower? What kind of lens/camera was being used? By the angle of the photos, was there a place where JA could have taken SOME of these photos without being noticed? I don't have a layout of the bathroom but I sure am not buying that Travis was reviewing photos with JA while he was in the shower.

For me, I assume that when showering behind glass, there is steam and water all over the glass, so you cannot get clear pictures. I see no soap suds which indicates he wasn't even taking a "real" shower, but was in the shower to pose.

 

[wasnt_me]

When in the sequence of events was Travis cleaning his floors, according to Jodi? He just up and started doing that in the middle of her "visit?"

 

[gitana1]

Someone tried to kill me with a knife. I did not go crazy with fear and terror. It was clear that I had one thing to do and that was to grip his wrists, the knife was a big type kitchen knife, and with all my might held his wrists and push them away. It was like an arm wrestle where both arms are frozen in place. I never succeeded in pushing him totally off but I did keep the knife off my face. Looking up at the knife, it could be aimed at my eyes, any part of my face or neck; it would cause harm anywhere it made contact. I was lying across the bed and he came at me. I don’t remember how or why we were not even having an argument; we were talking and I wasn’t watching him, that part was fast, he straddled me, with the knife gripped in his hand.
Fear and terror, like someone mentioned earlier, would get me dead or maimed. My response was to grab his wrists and push back as the knife was coming close to my face. I weigh 120 lbs and he weighed 180. The other thing that is burned in my memory is his drool. When he was straddled over me with the knife aimed at me and I was holding his arms at bay, his drool soaked my jeans, and then as he leaned down it was streaming out of his mouth all over me. We were face to face. I was astounded as the drool poured from his mouth and I realized this was some sort of psychotic break on his part and a physiological response to his craziness was, he was drooling. The drool and using my greatest strength holding his wrist did not elicit terror or fear, just a clarity of how to try to prevent the knife from making contact. I was soaked, my face, my shirt, and my pants, at least it wasn’t blood. I was OK and when he stopped trying to stab me the drool stopped (clear, not foamy or anything). Disgusting to think about and remember. Maybe one of our medical pros might know something about this drool. The person was a lawyer I was dating and this episode came on suddenly and never happened again, I ended the relationship.
I guess this experience speaks to me that the brain overcomes height and weight when put in the right circumstances; it is more than height and weight that makes a successful killer. I would say what saved me was that I got a grip on his wrist, was that from my quick reflexes? If you don’t get the wrist, you get the knife; try grabbing someone’s flailing arms by the wrist no matter the size difference between you both. Every time you miss it’s a defensive wound or strike by biiiiiiig knife.
A premeditated murder does not mean that the mentality of the killer is that of an experienced professional assassin. I am sure the chaos of a psychotic is paramount in the act and attack of a violent murder. A premeditated murder planned through hatred and anger as motivators probably is not in control and therefore cannot control the scene.
A person premeditating a murder to resolve their feelings of hatred and jealousy thinks differently than a hit-man that has the goal of simply killing a person. This can affect the outcome of evidence and scene.

Wow, Danta. That is intense. I;m glad you survived it. What happened to that guy? Did he ever become hospitalized or imprisoned? Did he try to hurt anyone else? Thank God you survived.

I didn't watch the entire trial but watched a bit of Detective Flores interrogating the murderer and when he told her that she turned her cell phone off before entering AZ and when she got it back on miraculously after she accomplished her mission was VERY telling. He said there was a mountainous region that would have blocked her cell phone when she claimed to have it. PREMEDITATION. Was that ever mentioned during this trial? TIA

Yes!! At length.

 

[molly333]

For me, I assume that when showering behind glass, there is steam and water all over the glass, so you cannot get clear pictures. I see no soap suds which indicates he wasn't even taking a "real" shower, but was in the shower to pose.

Yep. Where's the soap?

 

[SMK]

For me, I assume that when showering behind glass, there is steam and water all over the glass, so you cannot get clear pictures. I see no soap suds which indicates he wasn't even taking a "real" shower, but was in the shower to pose.

Good thinking. These pics do make you understand that yes, this must have only been a "posing session".

 

[SMK]

@wasnt_me:

So supposing this was a posing session and not a real shower:

TA was trying to extricate himself from JA (he had told Mimi he was not "temple worthy" which showed he must have discussed this with church elders and was "on probation" (?) - so why would he allow pictures which could be used to blackmail him at this point? (altho I guess it was his camera)

Just trying to figure out the logic of it all....

 

[SMK]

I don't think there is a place she could have photographed him without being seen. The closet door is perpendicular to the shower, so not there. And the hallway door is across from the shower, so he would have seen her if he turned his head in that direction, which he did.

By the way, Nancy Grace had a segment last night supposedly showing two people reflected in his right eye. It was kind of spooky.

IMO

Interesting......At times I had wondered if she may have had an accomplice. What did you make of this, and what were they theorizing about it?

 

[wilsodh]

It's not just giving us a "window" to come to our own conclusions, as if those conclusions are randomly pulled out of thin air. Frankly, the knife first theory is ONLY bolstered by the ME's ultimate conclusion and the bullet casing on top of dried blood.

The gun first theory is bolstered by everything else - her premeditated plan, the eerie second story she gave, the way his body was positioned when found, the trajectory, his ability to stay alive for a few moments, the ME's initial statements, gun shot wound experts who disagree with the ME's final conclusion, the ME's contradictions while on the stand, the ME's statement allowing for a possibility that she shot him first, the probability that a woman who had a gun would use a knife against a larger man first, instead of the gun, the probability of a .25 caliber jamming after a first shot, etc., etc.

I'm just using logic here. :angel:

Very nice summary!

Dave

 

[wilsodh]

I think this may have been posted already, but I found this quote from the book "Gunshot Wounds" to be particularly interesting:

"Just as in the case of gunshot wounds of the heart or major blood vessels, individuals can perform tasks or even survive gunshot wounds of the brain, especially if the injury involves only the frontal lobes. Numerous individuals have survived perforating gunshot wounds of the frontal lobes though there may be associated personality changes and/or blindness . . ."

"In one case, an elderly individual shot himself in the temple with a .32-caliber revolver. The bullet perforated both cerebral hemispheres injuring the tips of the caudate lobes. Following this, he was conscious for at least two hours during which time he spoke to his wife, a visiting nurse, and EMS personnel."

There is a reason why ME was reluctant to say that the small-caliber bullet that perforated TA's frontal lobe was necessarily immediately incapacitating.

Additionally, there is this report called "Penetrating gunshots to the head and lack of immediate incapacitation. II. Review of case report." It would be interesting to know whether TA's gunshot wound falls under the category of the types of gunshot wounds that were found not to be immediately incapacitating.

Funny, we both came across the same reference. I had posted this back on page 11 of this thread:


Hi all,

In support of my post #258 above and the thesis that Travis was shot 1st, I've been doing a bit of digging in the literature on gunshot wounds to the head.

One generality that can be made is that penetrating damage to the frontal lobes is the least likely to be incapacitating and life threatening. I quote from two sources (bbm):

"Generally speaking, the nearer the bullet track is to the base of the brain, the more dangerous is the injury.... Of the less severe injuries, perforations of the frontal lobes are the least serious, and those of the occipital region are also not very dangerous to life." (Gunshot Wounds. C.G.Spencer)

"Just as in the case of gunshot wounds of the heart or major blood vessels, individuals can perform tasks and survive wounds of the brain, especially if the injury involves only the frontal lobes... In documented cases of suicide, individuals have fired a bullet through their frontal lobes, and then fired a second, fatal gunshot wound to the basal ganglia." (Gunshot Wounds, Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. Vincent DiMaio, M.D.)

The second reference above describes some examples. Included was an elderly man who shot himself in the temple with a .32 caliber revolver. The bullet perforated both cerebral hemispheres. Following this, he was conscious for at least two hours during which time he talked with his wife, a visiting nurse, and EMS personnel.

There is another case (with photo) described in which an elderly man shot himself in the right temple with a .357 Magnum. The wound was so devastating, it blew off the front and top of his head above the temple. Nonetheless, he lived for an hour and a half without any life support, highlighting the non-critical nature the frontal lobes for sustaining life.

I quote again from the second reference above (bbm):

"In addition to such a head wound not immediately causing incapacitation, in some instances individuals who have been shot do not initially realize it. This is not uncommon in combat situations, where the noise, violence, and activity so distract an individual that he may not realize he has been wounded."

Now, Dr. Horn is a Medical Examiner. But he is NOT a specialist in traumatic brain injury. His testimony that Travis would likely have been immediately incapacitated is completely unfounded by the evidence that was presented. Horn is out of his realm of expertise when he speculates about Travis being incapacitated. More seriously, he presented an unfounded scenario aligned with the state's preferred sequence of events that could be very damaging to the defense. If Travis was shot first, it is at least minimally consistent with Jodi's self-defense story. If Travis was shot last, Jodi is lying. I suspect the prosecution would prefer that Travis be shot last, thereby leaving nothing to chance with the jury.

When Travis was shot in the shower, he was probably shocked about what had just happened: his ex, with whom he had just had sex that afternoon, had just fired a handgun aimed at his face. He would have known he was hit, but may not have known how serious it was. When Jodi tried to fire a second time, the gun jammed. Travis would have realized he was in mortal danger, and his 'fight or flight' adrenaline kicked in. Jodi left the bathroom to get the knife. As she was leaving, Travis might have hissed "F*cking kill you bltch!" per Jodi's testimony. Travis got himself up from the shower and instinctively headed to the sink to look in the mirror at his injury before seeking help. He might have assumed Jodi, with a jammed gun, was no longer an immediate threat. He faced the mirror, bent over the sink as his blood dripped, steadying himself with wet hands on the counter in front of the sink. Blood was filling his sinus and mouth, he aspirated some blood, and coughed. I suspect the main droplets of blood in the front-left of the sink may have been coming from his nose. The line of droplets points back to the shower, suggesting he went directly from the shower to the sink.

Seconds later, in the mirror, he saw Jodi coming at him with the knife. He turned to face his attacker.....

Dave

 

[molly333]

Interesting......At times I had wondered if she may have had an accomplice. What did you make of this, and what were they theorizing about it?

Nancy Grace just presented it. They showed that front face picture of him looking horrified in the shower. They had arrows to the [his] right eye. I had to look at it for a bit to see what they were talking about. If you looked directly at his pupil, it did kind of look like you could see two people standing side by side with a space in between them. Spooky.

When it's blown up on the tv screen, it's easier to see.

The person who found this was mentioned by name but was not a guest. So she just threw that out there at the end of a segment.

I, too, have always had a gut feel that she brought along one of the boyfriends to help. But, as far as I know there is no evidence of that. Were there any unidentified footprints? Or any strange bruises on his body as if he were restrained?

IMO

 

[sacrablue]

@wasnt_me:

So supposing this was a posing session and not a real shower:

TA was trying to extricate himself from JA (he had told Mimi he was not "temple worthy" which showed he must have discussed this with church elders and was "on probation" (?) - so why would he allow pictures which could be used to blackmail him at this point? (altho I guess it was his camera)

Just trying to figure out the logic of it all....

Hands crossing the chest is what i do when the water is cold and hasn't warmed up yet. The bathroom is on the second floor and would take awhile for hot water to reach shower head. Was Travis in the enclosure prematurely? Was there a rush?

 

[sacrablue]

Nancy Grace just presented it. They showed that front face picture of him looking horrified in the shower. They had arrows to the [his] right eye. I had to look at it for a bit to see what they were talking about. If you looked directly at his pupil, it did kind of look like you could see two people standing side by side with a space in between them. Spooky.

When it's blown up on the screen, it's easier to see.

The person who found this was mentioned by name but was not a guest. So she just threw that out there at the end of a segment.

I, too, have always had a gut feel that she brought along one of the boyfriends to help. But, as far as I know there is no evidence of that. Were there any unidentified footprints? Or any strange bruises on his body as if he were restrained?

IMO

I don't think his expression is horrified at all. I see no expression. Horrified is eyes wide open and mouth open.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Yep. Where's the soap?

We have no clue how long he was in the shower. When I first step into the shower, I let water run over me. No one puts soap to a dry body, right?

 

[molly333]

Hands crossing the chest is what i do when the water is cold and hasn't warmed up yet. The bathroom is on the second floor and would take awhile for hot water to reach shower head. Was Travis in the enclosure prematurely? Was there a rush?

Or maybe she didn't allow him to use hot water. I wouldn't put anything past her. Look at the gesture he is making with his hands where he has them pressed to his chest. I saw that gesture when I was looking up the two finger salute he's giving in the naked picture on the bed.

I felt like he was giving a signal to anyone who would see those pictures.

IMO

 

[molly333]

We have no clue how long he was in the shower. When I first step into the shower, I let water run over me. No one puts soap to a dry body, right?

We have a very big clue. The time stamps.