Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[luvtenniss]

Good point. I think it's because it's so hard to picture her stabbing him, slashing his throat, and then still shooting him. And attempting to shoot him would be far easier for a female (no struggle) and far simpler and cleaner - until she realized she was a bad shot, and the gun had jammed......

WHY does the medical examiner believe the shooting was last? Of course theirs is the expert opinion....

I do think that is some of the thinking - easier to subdue with a gun. Plus, she went to the trouble to steal it. I think the intent was to use it first, not as an afterthought.

I don't actually even know if I believe the gun jammed after the shot. Travis could have knocked it out of her hand. I kind of believe him getting out of the shower and knocking into her. But he was just trying to save himself, not hurt her. Then, since the shot didn't kill him, she didn't pick it up again. She just got out her knife and started slashing at him. He was already injured and she did intend on using the knife to slash his throat.

I think your fact about the throat slashing being connected to the book of Mormon is brilliant! Maybe she was trying to make it look like a Mormon punishment. Something someone so low in the rank of the church as she was would never try to do.

I do totally understand that the expert testimony of the ME points to gunshot last. I really do. I just also think the amount of time that went by before they found him could have affected things. And sometimes, things aren't exactly what they seem.

 

[SMK]

If she planned to shoot him first why would she do it from 2 foot away risking a missed shot and why wait until he was taking a shower. We know Travis told his roommate at 11:30 am he could not sleep the night before. Jodi admits they slept. Why not just shoot him in the bed? A lot easier than waiting until he was in the shower. She waited for the shower because she wanted her DNA off him and she wanted him in a place where she was in control. Had she missed her shot completely and the gun jammed he would have been able to overpower her because the element of surprise was gone. If she wasn't familiar with guns she did hit her mark which makes one think she had practiced with that gun before she left California.

The ME is saying shot not first because there wasn't a lot of blood within the brain so the ME concluded he had already pretty much bled out. Plus the wound entrance lacked the amount of bruising seen when blood is present in the brain. Otherwise he may have believed, too, that the shot came first. That was my understanding. jmo

Yes, I can see this line of reasoning and I can definitely see the medical evidence seen by the examiner.

To me Travis looks very strong in his upper body, arms, and legs (friends say he did work out and jog and bicycle and was health conscious and would not even drink soda but only water ) so I myself as a female would be terrified to stab him even if he were in the shower. There is always a way for someone to grab the knife from you. If I had a gun, that would be the thing I would use unless it failed (of course I wouldn't kill anyone period, but just for argument's sake).

What is your opinion of why she did not just, for example, shoot him as he came OUT of the shower and had washed the dna off? It would seem far simpler for her to have been lying in wait and simply shoot him as he exited and then flee. What was her thinking with the stabbing?(unless of course the Mormon throat slashing idea was part of her plan).

 

[mrsu]

Here's what I think happened (based on the photos)

Warning: I believe this was Manslaughter

1) Jodi was photographing Travis in the Shower, dropped the camera or did something that made him really angry (or perhaps he did something that made her really angry).

2) Jodi reacted and grabbed the knife that was in the bathroom (used to cut the tie-ups).

3) She began to stab him, they struggled (the defensive wounds come in here), the knife slipped.

4) She ran for the bedroom with a very angry-looking (but likely in-shock) Travis chasing after her (the massive amount of blood in the hallway happens here).

5) She grabbed the gun and pointed it at him (and I believe it was in place, not brought by Jodi - there are too many .25 calibre guns in Arizona to force the "stolen" theory).

6) He ran back to the bathroom to escape - and to retrieve the knife (again trailing large amounts of blood).

7) She chased him with the gun (leaving a hand print on the blood in the wall).

8) They faced off in the bathroom - with a rapid sequence of events - her wresting the knife, continuing to stab him while he reached for the gun.

9) After multiple stab wounds his strength depleted. He was unable to either reach or maintain a grip on the gun (he was wet and bloody after all).

10) She slit his throat, but he continued to move, so she grabbed the gun and shot him.

The camera's final shot was on an angle. I think that one of the photos went off as a result of the struggle - and the last one went off when Jodi (for whatever reason) picked up the camera as Travis was in the shower.

...but that, of course, is the way it looks to me (and conceeding that without more info - we'll likely never know what happened).

I do believe that she doesn't remember everything that happened, but that she's not being totally honest about how it started.

This makes me nervous for the jury. Especially your #5. There is just no way that I believe that was Travis's gun and it was in his closet. Nothing was disturbed what so ever, and of course this story comes up long after the fact when they can't go look for fingerprints or to see if any dust was disturbed on the shelf. Plus his friends said when they went to the shooting range he always had to borrow their guns. If there is one thing I am certain of, it's that she brought that gun. MOO

 

[SMK]

I do think that is some of the thinking - easier to subdue with a gun. Plus, she went to the trouble to steal it. I think the intent was to use it first, not as an afterthought.

I don't actually even know if I believe the gun jammed after the shot. Travis could have knocked it out of her hand. I kind of believe him getting out of the shower and knocking into her. But he was just trying to save himself, not hurt her. Then, since the shot didn't kill him, she didn't pick it up again. She just got out her knife and started slashing at him. He was already injured and she did intend on using the knife to slash his throat.

I think your fact about the throat slashing being connected to the book of Mormon is brilliant! Maybe she was trying to make it look like a Mormon punishment. Something someone so low in the rank of the church as she was would never try to do.

I do totally understand that the expert testimony of the ME points to gunshot last. I really do. I just also think the amount of time that went by before they found him could have affected things. And sometimes, things aren't exactly what they seem.

Yes - thanks but actually I had not thought of this connection with Mormon doctrine until I saw it pointed out on Wikipedia of all places:

Alexander's friends discovered his body in a shower of his home. He had been stabbed 29 times (the original report indicated 27 stab wounds), his throat was slit from ear to ear, and he had been shot in the head.

In the Wikipedia page, "The Killing of Travis Alexander", the "throat was slit ear to ear" links to this page on Mormonism:

the "Law of Vengeance".[42] The committee also removed the graphically violent language from the "penalty" portions of the ceremony. Prior to 1927, participants made an oath that if they ever revealed the secret gestures of the ceremony, they would be subject to the following:
“ my throat...be cut from ear to ear, and my tongue torn out by its roots
our breasts...be torn open, our hearts and vitals torn out and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field
your body...be cut asunder and all your bowels gush out.

Killing of Travis Alexander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[luvtenniss]

Yes - thanks but actually I had not thought of this connection with Mormon doctrine until I saw it pointed out on Wikipedia of all places:


In the Wikipedia page, "The Killing of Travis Alexander", the "throat was slit ear to ear" links to this page on Mormonism:



Killing of Travis Alexander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But you get credit for bringing it to us.

 

[SMK]

But you get credit for bringing it to us.

Thanks. :blushing:

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Good point. I think it's because it's so hard to picture her stabbing him, slashing his throat, and then still shooting him. And attempting to shoot him would be far easier for a female (no struggle) and far simpler and cleaner - until she realized she was a bad shot, and the gun had jammed......

WHY does the medical examiner believe the shooting was last? Of course theirs is the expert opinion....

The ME said that he would not have been able to do all of the stuff that JA claims he did. That it would have been debilitating because of where it ended up in the brain. He also said it was little bleeding, which suggests that his heart wasn't pumping or was weak at the time.

I know that people survive shots to the head relatively frequently, considering, but I've yet to hear about them being able to walk around, let alone attack someone with the bullet in their brain. Not saying it has never happened, just that I've never heard of it happening.

 

[LambChop]

good points, also SMK brings up some good points too, the fact is if it were not for the photos and hand print, she would probably not be in jail. and the fact that she did slash his throat the way she did as SMK pointed out=======TA's throat was slit "ear to ear" which is also stated in the Book of Mormon as being the punishment for one who broke a covenant. (this checks out)
i imagine she would have tried to blame the Mormons. Thankfully she did leave all that evidence and will be able to pay for what she did

I think her plan, if they were unable to find any evidenced Jodi was there, was to point the finger at Mimi. It would be interesting to see if Jodi sent Mimi something that indicated Jodi and Travis were, again, an item so that Jodi could say Mimi was upset with Travis and may have flown into a rage. That she killed him because he broke the covenant.

She had a car color similar to Mimi's. Only one plate on the back of the car (AZ only requires one plate). Her hair color changed back to the same color of Mimi's hair.

I don't think we have heard the last of her premeditated plans. I think JM is just getting started but had to lay the ground work with her testimony, the testimony of the psychologist and the DV expert. I don't think JM is done by a long shot. jmo

 

[LambChop]

The ME said that he would not have been able to do all of the stuff that JA claims he did. That it would have been debilitating because of where it ended up in the brain. He also said it was little bleeding, which suggests that his heart wasn't pumping or was weak at the time.

I know that people survive shots to the head relatively frequently, considering, but I've yet to hear about them being able to walk around, let alone attack someone with the bullet in their brain. Not saying it has never happened, just that I've never heard of it happening.

I think the point the ME was trying to make that at the point Travis was spitting up blood at the sink he was no longer a danger to Jodi. It's that simple.

 

[Captain86]

But, don't you have to prove either

1) why she used a knife instead of the stolen gun

or 2) how she premeditated with the knife [eg. prove she brought the knife] ?

No, you don't have to prove either. You just have to prove that she intended to kill him and he died because of her actions. Where in the definition of premeditated murder do you find that the murder had to bring the weapon with them? There is no specification about certain type of weapon making it premeditated or that the killer has to bring the weapon with them.

 

[SMK]

I keep wondering why some people have decided to believe that the ME is wrong when he says TA was shot last?

Another reason might be that the press had in various pieces initially been attributing shooting first theory to law enforcement:

The murder was beyond brutal. Detectives would later theorize that Travis survived the gunshot wound to his face and fought off his killer, before receiving the laceration to his throat and the fatal stab wound to his heart. Due to the savage nature of the crime, detectives believed they were searching for a cold-blooded killer who likely came to the house with the intent to kill.

http://www.timespublications.com/aug10-feature1.asp

 

[SMK]

I think her plan, if they were unable to find any evidenced Jodi was there, was to point the finger at Mimi. It would be interesting to see if Jodi sent Mimi something that indicated Jodi and Travis were, again, an item so that Jodi could say Mimi was upset with Travis and may have flown into a rage. That she killed him because he broke the covenant.

She had a car color similar to Mimi's. Only one plate on the back of the car (AZ only requires one plate). Her hair color changed back to the same color of Mimi's hair.

I don't think we have heard the last of her premeditated plans. I think JM is just getting started but had to lay the ground work with her testimony, the testimony of the psychologist and the DV expert. I don't think JM is done by a long shot. jmo

This is an interesting theory for sure. I had been surprised when I read that prior to the Cancun trip, Mimi had told Travis that she wanted to go on the trip "strictly as friends" and would understand if he wanted to take someone else.

At the time, I couldn't understand why Mimi would have said this, as Travis was young, handsome, charismatic, religious , successful, owned a home and a BMW - what girl would not be at least tentatively interested in dating him? But just as Lisa Andrews broke things off when she found out that "Jodi was still in the picture", likely Mimi did as well - and I'm sure Jodi did alot to enlighten Mimi!

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

I think the point the ME was trying to make that at the point Travis was spitting up blood at the sink he was no longer a danger to Jodi. It's that simple.

I'm talking specifically about the gunshot and why the ME says that the shot came last.

 

[Lulu67]

This is one thing the psychological expert said today:


"The attempts to clean up the crime scene appear to be rather frenzied, disorganized. You would predict if someone had planned this terrible deed, that plans would have included cleaning up the crime scene in order to get away and reduce the risk of apprehension."


This is one comment he made about how a disorganized and messy crime scene looks impulsive instead of premeditated.

Well, let's take a moment and think about the crime scene.

She had limited time due to roommates returning home (murder occured at approximately 5:30pm = roommate is due home around 6pm); and yet, even in a RUSH, she managed to drag his body back to the shower, stuff him in there, clean herself off (I theorize that she stood in the bathroom and used the cup to pour water over herself - hence the water on the box in the closet - then stripped down, stuffed her clothes into her backpack), wipe down at least SOME of the crime scene, and only, yes ONLY leave a hair or two and a palmprint?? That does not scream "frenzy" or "disorganized" to me.

I am no expert, not in crime scenes or forensics or anything even close, but from other cases I've read about, the small amount of the evidence she did leave behind is very telling. jmo

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

This is an interesting theory for sure. I had been surprised when I read that prior to the Cancun trip, Mimi had told Travis that she wanted to go on the trip "strictly as friends" and would understand if he wanted to take someone else.

At the time, I couldn't understand why Mimi would have said this, as Travis was young, handsome, charismatic, religious , successful, owned a home and a BMW - what girl would not be at least tentatively interested in dating him? But just as Lisa Andrews broke things off when she found out that "Jodi was still in the picture", likely Mimi did as well - and I'm sure Jodi did alot to enlighten Mimi!

Sometimes the chemistry just isn't there. Also, I think Mimi was the one who sAid that he talked about sex too much for her, right?

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Another reason might be that the press had in various pieces initially been attributing shooting first theory to law enforcement:


http://www.timespublications.com/aug10-feature1.asp

Aaah. Yea, that would do it. It's an easy theory to buy since people really can't imagine a woman being strong enough to kill a man toe to toe. Those people aren't thinking about:

The shock of being stabbed
That he was wet and naked
That he was stabbed in the chest, and his heart was hit.
That Jodi Arias was full of rage

She surely caught him off guard. I mean, come on, there is a reason why in horror and suspense movies some of the most scary scenes are when someone is in the shower. They are vulnerable there. No one is saying that she took him in hand to hand, one on one, equal combat. She definitely had some advantages.

 

[Captain86]

If you are going to plan something, you plan it out to work to your advantage. You don't just flip coins, --I'll take a gun and knife and flip a coin when the time comes. You don't depend on luck--maybe i'll get lucky and hit the SVC with the first blow. You don't plan to leave DNA, handprints, your own blood, and a camera with your picture in it. You don't plan to have to flood the bathroom to move a body so you can wash your blood off him in the shower.

That crime scene is a mess. She did not plan that.

Unless she planned to shoot him in the shower and the gun jammed.

IMO

Nothing ever goes exactly according to plan. People make mistakes all the time when planning murder. They overlook some small detail, or something unexpected happens (there are at least two people involved in a muder, the muderer and the victim). People forget all kinds of things during the act of committing a crime. Finger prints are left at crime scenes regularly.

It is obvious that she did not expect it to be so messy. She probably has no experience with stabbing someone. Many people don't think about the fact that when you stab someone, you usually get cut on the fingers or hand yourself when the blade impacts bone. How would you expect her to figure out which bloody areas had her blood mixed in them to know which ones she needed to clean up.

Question: Where do you get that she flooded the bathroom move the body?

 

[weather_lady]

Here's what I think happened (based on the photos)

5) She grabbed the gun and pointed it at him (and I believe it was in place, not brought by Jodi - there are too many .25 calibre guns in Arizona to force the "stolen" theory).

I was just wondering: if you believe the gun was "in place," if you were JA's attorney, how would you explain to the jury the lack of ammunition, holster or case, trigger lock, gun cleaning kit, and the absence of any evidence that TA ever bought, licensed or learned how to fire a handgun, etc.? At the very least, gun owners typically have ammunition for their weapon -- you can't just buy a 6-pack of bullets or cartridges (enough to load the magazine). No such items have been found, and there is no conceivable reason why a killer would remove items from the victim's home to which she had no connection (nor does she appear to have removed anything that wasn't hers -- not even the camera). I have a tough time buying the theory that TA owned a loaded gun, but no other ammo and none of the "accessories" that typically accompany gun ownership. Is there a reasonable explanation that I'm missing?

 

[shelley921]

I keep wondering why some people have decided to believe that the ME is wrong when he says TA was shot last?

Yes -! I wonder about that too. WHY? I read a post last night on here by a man who said his wife had been a neurosurgeon and that she felt the gunshot came after the stabbing because of lack of blood in the sinuses and lack of bleeding in the brain. He had already bled out.

 

[geevee]

If you are going to plan something, you plan it out to work to your advantage. You don't just flip coins, --I'll take a gun and knife and flip a coin when the time comes. You don't depend on luck--maybe i'll get lucky and hit the SVC with the first blow. You don't plan to leave DNA, handprints, your own blood, and a camera with your picture in it. You don't plan to have to flood the bathroom to move a body so you can wash your blood off him in the shower.

That crime scene is a mess. She did not plan that.

Unless she planned to shoot him in the shower and the gun jammed.

IMO

Last night I was rewatching Trial Day 2 and s/s pics from it to look at more closely, apparently that crime scene was a bigger mess than first realized with the initial pictures. I noticed I'd always seen the area with the shell casing having that cabinet door open and/or the linen door covering that area left of the sink, I did find a pic where the cab door is closed and the linen door is somewhat away from the corner, allowing you to see some of the wall right next to the sink. There is a lot of blood on the part that faces the windows, and a large swipe of blood around the corner just above the baseboard which couldn't be seen before (at least by me), she was on his left at the sink, he was naked and only clothing could have made that blood swipe.

Also, on the wall where the towel hangs (that towel was shown in court with 'spots' on it), underneath the towel are what look like bloody hand prints a foot or so up from the baseboard (along with other blood spatters), and this too - in a later photo with that wall scaled off with marked tape, there's a chunk of drywall taken out of that wall (I'll add these pics to my PB album so you can take a look).

http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/g.../?page=1&_suid=136396106153108860287493313407

I knew Juan was driving at something when he brought out that blood was under the glass scale and it had been marked into evidence under an LB number (is that latent blood print?), some of the scuffle took place back in by the towel bar, maybe she tried to corner him back there after the sink and before getting down the hallway, but what I had thought was cast off blood on everything to the right of the sink appears to be part of the fight (with the prints on that back corner wall) and it looks like they had been near the ground as well, this just gets curiouser and curiouser.