John Ramsey – Another year of “moving on.”

[Meara]

"I have done that", says my memory. "I cannot have done that" — says my pride, and remains adamant. At last — memory yields."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

Dave, brilliant. Stunningly apt.

 

[Lilibet]

<snipped for focus>

This video is a great comparison. It's heartbreaking, but natural and expected, to see the way the mother reacts. If I had seen even half of this in JBR's parents I would be focusing a lot less on their behaviour. For a lot of RDI, it seems their behaviour is one of the biggest factors, and this is just another huge example.

BBM

The video says it all. Ebony's Mom is real, unlike the Ramseys. John and Patsy's behavior was the biggest factor for me from the beginning. I haven't studied the details of this case as so many on WS have and continue to do. I just could never get past their refusal to fully cooperate with LE immediately. The red flags started flying and never stopped.

Two things I look for in parents of murdered or missing children: Full and completely transparent cooperation with LE and absolutely NO complaining about how they are treated in MSM or SM. Nothing should matter except solving the crime against their child. If parents hold back and whine about how THEY are being treated, I assume they are hiding something. And they usually are IMO.

 

[Meara]

Whew, somebody left the door open and a breath of fresh air arrived in this post! Thank you for describing those little bitty hints of character flaws, so disquieting no matter how many times we’ve heard them.

JR obviously doesn’t look upon JMK as creep of the year; he looks at how this can be used to enhance his own virtuous persona in the media, as if to say, “Look, he was targeted by the authorities, just like me.” And it’s like watching someone perfecting their state of victimology. Still today, JR puts the BPD under the label of incompetence and emphasizes that they cruelly targeted him and his family. I’ve noted this quote elsewhere, but it bears repeating. This is cited by profiler John Douglas in one of his books. From JR: “And if there is any lesson in all of this, it isn’t that an innocent child was murdered— because, unfortunately, that happens all too often— but that the police persecuted innocent people.”

Hi qft! Thanks. It's really nice to meet you here again!

It's like watching someone perfecting their state of victimology.
You've got it! That's exactly what he's doing!

Your post triggered some other thoughts, and I’m going to wander around a little here. The following musings are not my own. I have simply read a lot. So in the event some readers here haven’t combed through the past observations by real psychologists who have appeared on the JBR forums, I’ll summarize some stuff.

A lot has been written about Cluster B Personality Disorder and the Rs (in JR’s case specifically narcissistic personality disorder, NPD. Google NPD for more detail.) I don’t pretend to any professional knowledge of this disorder, but I do know that some (not all) with Cluster B issues also are sociopaths. From what I’ve read about narcissism, JR ‘pings’ soundly on the spectrum, but also seems to have a comorbidity of sociopathy. (Sociopathy is chiefly characterized as something really wrong with one's conscience.) The tipping point for me was the easy and comfortable combination of charm, lies and accusations against innocent friends. He doesn’t 'feel' anything at all about the action of throwing someone under the bus if it furthers his goal.

There are cases where sociopaths appear to have the capacity for feelings, to have a seemingly normal capacity for affection. But there is a difference - they also appear to have an ability most people don’t have, the capacity to 'compartmentalize' (i.e., wall-off) any emotional connection to their actions.

For me, when JR attempts to show how he is above it all, he simply highlights who he really is. At his core, there’s a failure to recognize other people’s emotional responses to the horrendous death of his daughter and to believe that he is better than everyone else who would judge a killer. (Except, of course, when he occasionally switches course and says he would tear the killer apart. The changes in tone can make the head spin. Thank you, Ellie9.) JR wants to make sure everyone sees his sanctity and his recovery from being accused. He wants to be admired. Jmho, but it makes me want to barf.

a failure to recognize other people’s emotional responses to the horrendous death of his daughter
[believes] he is better than everyone else who would judge a killer
wants to make sure everyone sees his sanctity and recovery
wants to be admired

You've nailed it again -- especially the obtuseness about other people's expressions of feeling, which mirrors his own emotional stuntedness. I'm sorry for your discomfort but also happy for you. Wanting to barf is a normal, healthy response to narcissistically disordered behavior. Go for it!! :sick:

Since you mention Cluster B Personality Disorders, I hope you won't mind if I add to what you contributed. First, for those who may be less familiar with abnormal psychology, The Cluster B disorders include:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD)
Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and
Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)

They are (if you'll pardon the expression in this context) incestuous. Two of the disorders occurring simultaneously (comorbidity) is not uncommon, but even more common than that is an overlapping of the disorders that reflects the boundary and identity issues present in all four. This results in such diagnoses as NPD with histrionic features, or Histrionic PD with borderline features, where there are observable elements of a second disorder but not enough to warrant a second diagnosis.

A word about Antisocial Personality Disorder, sociopaths and psychopaths -- ASPD is the actual diagnosis ("diagnostic entity"), with formal diagnostic criteria. As you say, qft, these are people with something seriously wrong with their conscience. Sociopaths and psychopaths present two different versions of the disorder. Both lack regard for the rights and well being of others. Both are characterized in part by deceit, lying, manipulativeness, law-breaking, and lack of empathy (ranging from callousness to total lack of remorse). There are different schools of thought about all of this but, short version, sociopaths are thought to be formed by a combination of social and intrapsychic dynamics, while psychopaths are born with different wiring.

Sociopaths tend to be more impulsive, more emotionally volatile, and less able to meet social norms for employment, relationships, family life, and so on, but able to form some attachments and experience regret for some actions (not that they change). Psychopaths, on the other hand, tend to be organized, make long range plans, can more easily blend in and appear normal, are educated/self-educated, can be quite successful, and are largely incapable of real emotional attachment or guilt/remorse. Sociopaths are more often caught breaking the law. Psychopaths plan ahead and are much better at avoiding detection. If JR is ASPD, psychopath would be the better description.

I don't think he necessarily is, though. A narcissist will also break the law, lie, manipulate people, fake deep attachments, blame/discard others, compartmentalize, and justify his actions. He just does these things for different reasons. (And this is a key thing to remember with these disorders: It's not just the behaviors, which are often similar. It's where are they coming from? For what deficit are they the compensation?) An ASPD will break the law because right and wrong to him mean doing/not doing what he wants; he's his own law. When an NPD breaks the law, he knows. He just decides it doesn't apply to him. He keeps the law when it suits him and breaks it when it suits him because he's special. Inferior people just don't get it, doncha know? :aktion1:

So, it's an interesting question whether JR would be more accurately characterized as both NPD and ASPD, or NPD with antisocial features.

Apologies in advance if this has been tedious. I'm responding to you and also wanting to include anyone interested who may have missed out on earlier discussions of the Cluster B disorders (not to be confused with the D.A.'s office and Cluster F).

 

[otg]

(rsbm)

(not to be confused with the D.A.'s office and Cluster F).

:floorlaugh:
Everything else you wrote (and QFT, for that matter) was way too much for my little brain. But I got the part I snipped. (I love subtle -- and not-so-subtle -- humor. :giggle: )

 

[Meara]

otg, I knew you'd laugh at that other "diagnostic group"! What an opportunity! I had to be naughty just this once :angel2:

 

[Talia]

Hello All,

I have been following this forum for quite some time, but I have just recently joined, so that I might help contribute. I must say, everything you have all discussed has been fascinating, and the points you bring up are very thought-provoking. I am 27, and was living in Littleton (about 90 min. away from Boulder, Colorado at the time. Jonbenet was two years younger than me, and she has always held a special place in my heart.

I was actually in a pageant with her once. I was not the typical pageant queen, that went to all the circuits, or anything like that. My sister begged my mom to let us do a couple of pageants, and she reluctantly agreed. The pageant I was in with JB, was in Denver. Everyone made such a big deal about her when she arrived. Everyone knew her and Patsy. She seemed happy, but of course I was also a child, so I probably was not very intuitive back then.

My mom and I were shocked to see her on the news a couple of years later! It was scary for kids in CO at that time, because we didn't know who did it, or if there would be a copy-cat murder. That is one thing about Burke's claim to "feel safe" after Jonbenet's death, that I find very odd. I am the same age as he is, and I was terrified at the time. It makes you wonder what he really knew?

One of my friends lived in their neighborhood in Boulder. His parents said they heard screams that night. One that sounded like a child (it was very high-pitched), And some others that sounded more like yelling. My friend said he knew Burke, but he didn't really get along with him. He said the parents were always in a hurry.

It does not surprise me that JR would want to move on with his life. Their daughter was no longer there for them to parade around. It is sad to see parents have such conditional love for their child. They never really talked about her like they REALLY REALLY loved her. It seemed like it was all contrived.

My friend's parents were real estate investors, and thought about buying the Ramsey house at one point, because it was very underpriced at $4million, but they knew everything that came with it, and it had bad memories for them as well.

This is one case that continues to haunt me, especially because I felt such a personal connection to her. I just wish justice could be brought to her.

 

[Cherry]

id be waching burke for the rest of his life. i still suspect him full on.

 

[elannia]

Hello All,

I have been following this forum for quite some time, but I have just recently joined, so that I might help contribute. I must say, everything you have all discussed has been fascinating, and the points you bring up are very thought-provoking. I am 27, and was living in Littleton (about 90 min. away from Boulder, Colorado at the time. Jonbenet was two years younger than me, and she has always held a special place in my heart.

I was actually in a pageant with her once. I was not the typical pageant queen, that went to all the circuits, or anything like that. My sister begged my mom to let us do a couple of pageants, and she reluctantly agreed. The pageant I was in with JB, was in Denver. Everyone made such a big deal about her when she arrived. Everyone knew her and Patsy. She seemed happy, but of course I was also a child, so I probably was not very intuitive back then.

My mom and I were shocked to see her on the news a couple of years later! It was scary for kids in CO at that time, because we didn't know who did it, or if there would be a copy-cat murder. That is one thing about Burke's claim to "feel safe" after Jonbenet's death, that I find very odd. I am the same age as he is, and I was terrified at the time. It makes you wonder what he really knew?

One of my friends lived in their neighborhood in Boulder. His parents said they heard screams that night. One that sounded like a child (it was very high-pitched), And some others that sounded more like yelling. My friend said he knew Burke, but he didn't really get along with him. He said the parents were always in a hurry.

It does not surprise me that JR would want to move on with his life. Their daughter was no longer there for them to parade around. It is sad to see parents have such conditional love for their child. They never really talked about her like they REALLY REALLY loved her. It seemed like it was all contrived.

My friend's parents were real estate investors, and thought about buying the Ramsey house at one point, because it was very underpriced at $4million, but they knew everything that came with it, and it had bad memories for them as well.

This is one case that continues to haunt me, especially because I felt such a personal connection to her. I just wish justice could be brought to her.

Hello , and welcome to WS... did your friend's parents ever report the scream and the yelling that night?

 

[THE BUNK]

"It does not surprise me that JR would want to move on with his life. Their daughter was no longer there for them to parade around""

This is the thing that you notice. Jon does not seem to be scared of this killer. He seems more scared of public opinion and the police.

A man just murdered your daughter. Does he not worry that this guy is just waiting to kill other members of his family?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Like OJ before him, JR outrageous and ongoing Publicity Seeking Antics have revealed his true psychopathy to the public eye.

Keep yapping, John.

 

[andreww]

"It does not surprise me that JR would want to move on with his life. Their daughter was no longer there for them to parade around""

This is the thing that you notice. Jon does not seem to be scared of this killer. He seems more scared of public opinion and the police.

A man just murdered your daughter. Does he not worry that this guy is just waiting to kill other members of his family?

The killer wasn't mad at John, he was mad at the country that John represents.

Its actually a little humorous that in their ransom note they couldn't bring themselves to put the blame on themselves by saying something like "we despise you and your capitalistic company". Nope, John is an American hero, one to be admired, and Jonbenet was America's sacrificial lamb.

 

[Talia]

Thank you! I believe they did, and it seemed to be corroborated with many of the other neighbors claims. It brings up the question, how could her parents slept through her screaming? They obviously couldn't.

 

[U2forever]

The killer wasn't mad at John, he was mad at the country that John represents.

Its actually a little humorous that in their ransom note they couldn't bring themselves to put the blame on themselves by saying something like "we despise you and your capitalistic company". Nope, John is an American hero, one to be admired, and Jonbenet was America's sacrificial lamb.

:drumroll:

American hero...:hilarious:

 

[THE BUNK]

The killer wasn't mad at John, he was mad at the country that John represents.

Its actually a little humorous that in their ransom note they couldn't bring themselves to put the blame on themselves by saying something like "we despise you and your capitalistic company". Nope, John is an American hero, one to be admired, and Jonbenet was America's sacrificial lamb.

Nor does the writer say anything bad about JonBenet. Doesn't use a vulgar term like "little c@%t" or "the b word". Doesn't consider her a spoiled beauty queen brat or anything. In fact it puzzles me that this letter doesn't have any profanity whats so ever. The best he can do is "fat cats".

 

[andreww]

Nor does the writer say anything bad about JonBenet. Doesn't use a vulgar term like "little c@%t" or "the b word". Doesn't consider her a spoiled beauty queen brat or anything. In fact it puzzles me that this letter doesn't have any profanity whats so ever. The best he can do is "fat cats".

What it really lacks is a motive. It starts out nicely, introducing themselves as a foreign faction, a group that may be pissed at John's company and its military contracts, but then dismisses that whole premiss by saying they respect John and his company. The question you have to ask yourself is, if you were a foreign faction coming to wreak havoc and extort money from a country you despise, why would you target someone you have respect for? Surely there is one fat cat somewhere in America that actually deserves some retribution?

One can almost picture Patsy writing the letter, threatening John, insulting him, but when it comes to John's company she's quite aware that she can't bite the hand that feeds her. She's willing to throw away this years bonus, but certainly not next years.

 

[Dan Cooper]

I only have a very vague recollection of this case as I was quite young when it happened, but having done some research into it recently I am unable to comprehend the 'intruder theory' - literally no aspect of it makes any sense, and I just cannot fathom why at least one of the Ramseys was never charged with something. It really does boggle to mind.

There are certainly interesting comparisons with the McCann disappearance, although in the face of overwhelming evidence of a cover-up (which the McCanns didn't have to work with to this great an extent) I can't help but feel that John Ramsey must think he's living in some weird dream. I can't imagine knowing what he does and then living with it for the rest of your life. It must really numb the senses. I saw his new wife on that Barbara Walters interview. It seems to me that anyone who was interested in 'vetting' a future husband would look into his background and so, in Ramsey's case, the circumstances surrounding his daughter's death. Surely, even with a shred of doubt, she'd run a mile? Very weird.

He must be a good liar. I mean, hand-writing the ransom note in the victim's house and leaving it there, and then leaving the 'kidnap' victim sexually abused and murdered in the house. I mean, really? Really?

It's baffling that the D.A. refused to sign the indictment.

 

[questfortrue]

This post may seem like a detour, but it has some relevance to what has been posted in the past few weeks. Recently I was reviewing the statements of the Rs in their book DOI. I had not realized until rereading some passages that Patsy loved the double entendre as well as puns. (I’d known before that she liked wordplay with acronyms and acrostics.)

Probably most everyone knows this, but for those who’ve forgotten high school English - double entendres are meant to be taken literally and innocently and also to contain another message for those who understand.

You can check out the variety of double entendres here: http://examples.yourdictionary.com/double-entendre-examples.html Some of the double entendre/pun examples I spotted in DOI –

Patsy commenting after JR sees a buck with antlers in the backyard of the home they are purchasing on 15th: Wow! This must be a sign. The buck stops here! I thought. I guess this must be the place for us.

Another one, JB notoriously was the upbeat person in the household, and she loved to press the elevator button designating going “up”. We called JonBenét the “up girl.” That nickname came from the times we’d get on an elevator; JonBenét always rushed to push the up button. She would run ahead, jump on the elevator, and say, “I want to push the up button. I’m the up girl.” Boy, was she ever the “up” girl.

A third one which was a headline she appreciated enough to include in DOI. Patsy referenced the daughter MR (now ML) wedding and that: Every time someone had to go outside, they’d raise the umbrella, and all the cameras could get was a view from their knees down. At least the photographers didn’t succeed in getting shots of anyone’s faces. The tabloids later reported that the “umbrellas of suspicion” were part of the wedding!

As folks are mentioning the verbiage in the RN, something struck me which could be interpreted as a double entendre. It won’t provide information about who perpetrated the head blow, how she was strangled or anything. But if it strikes someone in the same way as it did me, it will give additional information about the family. Sorry to be oblique, but it makes no sense to bring it to anyone’s attention who doesn’t see it or who believe the message should just be taken literally. (It’s like puns. Puns are meant to be funny, and if they have to be explained, they aren’t so funny and thus aren’t very good puns.)

And, of course, I may be off track with this. It could just be meant to be taken as people have understood it so far.

 

[Tadpole12]

This post may seem like a detour, but it has some relevance to what has been posted in the past few weeks. Recently I was reviewing the statements of the Rs in their book DOI. I had not realized until rereading some passages that Patsy loved the double entendre as well as puns. (I&#8217;d known before that she liked wordplay with acronyms and acrostics.)

Probably most everyone knows this, but for those who&#8217;ve forgotten high school English - double entendres are meant to be taken literally and innocently and also to contain another message for those who understand.

You can check out the variety of double entendres here: http://examples.yourdictionary.com/double-entendre-examples.html Some of the double entendre/pun examples I spotted in DOI &#8211;

Patsy commenting after JR sees a buck with antlers in the backyard of the home they are purchasing on 15th: Wow! This must be a sign. The buck stops here! I thought. I guess this must be the place for us.

Another one, JB notoriously was the upbeat person in the household, and she loved to press the elevator button designating going &#8220;up&#8221;. We called JonBenét the &#8220;up girl.&#8221; That nickname came from the times we&#8217;d get on an elevator; JonBenét always rushed to push the up button. She would run ahead, jump on the elevator, and say, &#8220;I want to push the up button. I&#8217;m the up girl.&#8221; Boy, was she ever the &#8220;up&#8221; girl.

A third one which was a headline she appreciated enough to include in DOI. Patsy referenced the daughter MR (now ML) wedding and that: Every time someone had to go outside, they&#8217;d raise the umbrella, and all the cameras could get was a view from their knees down. At least the photographers didn&#8217;t succeed in getting shots of anyone&#8217;s faces. The tabloids later reported that the &#8220;umbrellas of suspicion&#8221; were part of the wedding!

As folks are mentioning the verbiage in the RN, something struck me which could be interpreted as a double entendre. It won&#8217;t provide information about who perpetrated the head blow, how she was strangled or anything. But if it strikes someone in the same way as it did me, it will give additional information about the family. Sorry to be oblique, but it makes no sense to bring it to anyone&#8217;s attention who doesn&#8217;t see it or who believe the message should just be taken literally. (It&#8217;s like puns. Puns are meant to be funny, and if they have to be explained, they aren&#8217;t so funny and thus aren&#8217;t very good puns.)

And, of course, I may be off track with this. It could just be meant to be taken as people have understood it so far.

Heyya questfortrue,

ty for the insight into DOI.

Uhm, please don't be oblique,

share the info,
posters here of various nationalities and ages that might not have as great a command of the English language as some.


also qft, here's a link, Hodges on Obama, I think you might enjoy:
http://www.wnd.com/2016/02/forensic-profiler-why-obama-hates-guns/

 

[questfortrue]

Heyya questfortrue,

ty for the insight into DOI.

Uhm, please don't be oblique,

share the info,
posters here of various nationalities and ages that might not have as great a command of the English language as some.
~RSBM~

LOL, OK, TAD,
I’m not a Hodges follower because I don’t understand Freudian psychology and his explanation of thought prints. And I’ve no particular linguistic skill like Foster or Hodges, except I understand most puns and double entendres.

WARNING: Mature Content
But, as you asked for the benefit of our international readers, the word ‘business’ is a polite euphemism for male genitalia or for some sexual connotation. There was an example recently in a Big Bang Theory TV program in which Leonard declines to swim nude in the ocean, because he doesn’t want any fish nibbling his ‘business.’ Or as used in retro vernacular, ‘get down to business’, an innuendo ‘come-on.’ (used for comic effect by the New Zealand music group Flight of the Conchords). I am not promoting this as a double entendre, but I looked at it as a possibility. Or it could be a straight forward situation of PR not wishing to harm Access Graphics, but wanting to indicate that this Foreign Faction hated the country. IOW, Andreww’s interpretation suffices.

In any event, if it were a double entendre it could have been used to leverage JR’s cooperation with hiding what BR or she herself had done. I didn’t really want to think outside the box or go against traditional interpretation, but it is the one sentence which has never made sense to me. Of course the whole RN is staging, so perhaps it’s simply a red herring anyway.

 

[Red Viewfinder]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-unsolved-case-is-dead-killer-still-at-large/

Please read the last sentence of this article.

I go back and forth and up and around this case all the time. Just when I think I believe a certain theory, a hole is poked, or another theory catches my attention.

That being said, John declaring that he doesn't want to know what happened to his daughter, has taken be aback once again.

Whaaaaaaat??? Doesn't want to know? Doesn't want someone punished, held responsible? He doesn't want to know the truth of why his precious little girl died a horrific and gruesome death in his basement??

That doesn't sit right with me, at all....REALLY!