Britt
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I agree... also, since he'd told Fleet White the window story when they went to the basement just before "finding" JonBenét's body, John knew that White had likely told that to police.Charlie said:
John Ramsey Fabricated Open Basement Window "Evidence"
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Charlie
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Britt said:
Britt, i have read that John told fleet that window story that morning however has fleet corroborated that story?
Britt
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Not sure if this question has been answered yet, but the TV room is on the first floor:less0305 said:
John Ramsey: ...The normal doors that we used to go in and out of the house were the garage door, the door to the garage and the door out in the hallway, the back hallway, and I would usually look to see if that door is locked, because that was the typical one the kids went in and out of.
Tom Trujillo: The back one out by the study area?
JR: Right, TV room.
JonBenet - The Police Files, p. 110 (1997 police interviews)
Britt
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I assume so since Thomas's book reports both versions - the one John told in the 1997 interview (corroborated by the public transcripts of the interview) and another one with different quotes that would've had to come from White because no one else was there.Charlie said:
Britt
New Member
Okay, back to the blanket:
Could he have done this that morning (the 26th) while 'waiting for the kidnapper's call' when he disappeared for a while and Arndt lost track of him, during the time some speculate he moved the body?
The above quote is from the 1998 police interviews, JonBenet - The Police Files, p. 306-307.Toltec said:
So clearly, John ran upstairs to the first floor (from the basement) to fetch the blanket, took it back downstairs to the basement and put it around JonBenét's body.Britt said:
Could he have done this that morning (the 26th) while 'waiting for the kidnapper's call' when he disappeared for a while and Arndt lost track of him, during the time some speculate he moved the body?
In both Steve Thomas's and Lawrence Schiller's books the blanket placed over JonBenet is done upstairs in PMPT its described as a throw blanket taken from the living room. Also ITRMI states that Linda Arndt told John to dial 911, he returned within two minutes, grabbed a blanket from a chair and tossed it over JonBenet. So it was witnessed.
Also in both accounts Fleet White states that JonBenet's corpse was wrapped in a blanket.
Sounds to me the running back upstairs by John was an attempt at confusing the issue, which he could claim if questioned was another amnesic episode.
.
As we don't have FW's testimony could it be the case that FW moved the chair in the basement and told this to BPD.
Do we know for a fact what FW did in the basement more than examining the window and opened and closed the wine cellar door?
Otherwise I think it's abit stange that they didn't push JR on this harder during his interviews. They just kind of let it pass.
Do we know for a fact what FW did in the basement more than examining the window and opened and closed the wine cellar door?
Otherwise I think it's abit stange that they didn't push JR on this harder during his interviews. They just kind of let it pass.
http://www.realsundancekid.com/
When you go to the above link, is the blueprint accurate?? If so, the room that was supposedly blocked by a chair would be the one marked "hobby room" on this diagram, correct? Isn't that also the room the R's called the "train room"? And the window in question is located beyond the hobby/train room in what the diagram calls "storage", am I correct? JBR was found in the room marked "wine cellar" on the diagram, correct?
THanks for your help, just trying to get it all straight in my mind.
When you go to the above link, is the blueprint accurate?? If so, the room that was supposedly blocked by a chair would be the one marked "hobby room" on this diagram, correct? Isn't that also the room the R's called the "train room"? And the window in question is located beyond the hobby/train room in what the diagram calls "storage", am I correct? JBR was found in the room marked "wine cellar" on the diagram, correct?
THanks for your help, just trying to get it all straight in my mind.
newtv
New Member
If he did-why didnt he fabricate it better-if he can make all these other things happen-why wouldnt he smash the window out-make it really look like someone was in that room and left thru a window.s_finch said:
Its the poorest fabrication that a man could make who is also alledgedly capable of the perfect crime..the whole staging is overkill..it didnt require the brutality to convice LE that an intruder appeared..u dont have to choke, smother,beat, and garrotte the kid to have it look like it was an intruder-even a sexual intruder
THe bolded statement confuses me due to my lack of knowledge on this case. Can someone please explain? Wasn't JBR found in the "wine cellar" as pictured on this diagram? http://www.realsundancekid.com/ And Fleet White specifically went into this room early that morning, unbeknownst by JR???? So if that is true, and JBR wasn't in the wine cellar when Fleet went in there, then where did John move the body from in order to place it in that room? Why wouldn't he have placed her there during the night?? Wouldn't it be extremely risky to be secretly moving a body around in the basement with all the people in the house??RiverRat said:
Thanks!
angelwngs
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"IF" there was an intruder who chose to leave through a basement window instead of exiting through a door on the main floor, in my opinion his logic would be considered convoluted unless he suspected someone was already awake and moving around in the house. Then not to chance using a 2nd floor door might make sense. That said, pulling several pieces of furniture in a doorway would also slow someone down if they entered the basement room as he was attempting to exit thru a window. Just a thought...Though I admit it's not a probable action of an intruder.
(But imagine your body half inside and half outside a tiny window you are trying to squeeze through to exit a crime scene... Both the time it would take someone coming in to move the furniture and your hearing it move behind you would certainly be advantagous if you've got your head and half your body sticking out of that window.)
Was there evidence of people the R's gave spare keys to through the years? (I have a whole string of cleaning ladies who have had keys to our homes. It only takes about 5 minutes for someone to get a key made. Then they could quit and return the original. I think it might be time to change the locks at our house.)
(But imagine your body half inside and half outside a tiny window you are trying to squeeze through to exit a crime scene... Both the time it would take someone coming in to move the furniture and your hearing it move behind you would certainly be advantagous if you've got your head and half your body sticking out of that window.)
Was there evidence of people the R's gave spare keys to through the years? (I have a whole string of cleaning ladies who have had keys to our homes. It only takes about 5 minutes for someone to get a key made. Then they could quit and return the original. I think it might be time to change the locks at our house.)
Eagle1
Former Member
I'm just bumping this up because it's under discussion again and this just might help.
Fleet White said the room was very dark and yet JR screamed that he had found JBR's body before even turning on the light.
What about the neighbor who claimed to have heard a scream come from the Ramsey's house the night of the murder, along with the sound of steel being dragged on concrete. Could that have been the grate under the window? I wonder if the neighbor called the police that evening?
What about the neighbor who claimed to have heard a scream come from the Ramsey's house the night of the murder, along with the sound of steel being dragged on concrete. Could that have been the grate under the window? I wonder if the neighbor called the police that evening?
LadyTudorRose
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I know this is a *really* old thread and I don't know how y'all feel about bumping really old threads but I think there's a lot of interesting discussion and ideas being brought up.
The omission about the window is one of the many weird things about this case and one of the stronger pieces of evidence, IMHO, of JR's involvement. If he had noticed the window open on the day of and he honestly didn't know who kidnapped/killed JB and wanted to find out, he would tell the police about that window immediately and ask them to dust for fingerprints.
This whole mess makes me think of something that happened to me. I remember once going into a friend's room to get something while she was out of town. Her roommates hadn't been in her room since she had left two days before. The day she left it was one of those weird 75 degree days we sometimes get in January where I live, but the day I came it was 30 degrees and there was a light snow coming down. When I opened the door to go into her room, that cold hit me like a ton of bricks. She'd left her window partially open, and her relatively large room was absolutely frigid. Not only that, but when I went to close the window, it was wet from the snow and ice coming down. Even knowing that basements tend to be relatively cold anyway, I find it extremely unlikely that no one other than JR noticed that the window had been open. Especially since they were looking for a point-of-entry or point-of-exit. Wouldn't someone else have commented that, hey, maybe he came through the window? Or even remarked on how cold it was in the room and perhaps that might be because one of the windows didn't shut all the way?
I think it's possible the window had been broken at some point, it's also possible JR had found it randomly open at some point; a lot of the best lies draw from the truth. I've also thought maybe PR or BR opened the window at some point during the staging but JR closed it again right away, thinking it was too small to be an entry-point or that the door might be a better one to claim. After all, there were likely to be fingerprints from many different people on the front door but probably just the family on the window.
I suspect JR decided to tell the story about the open window as a point-of-entry at a later date when he realized the police didn't see a viable one anywhere and thus believed it had to be someone living in the house who killed JB.
The omission about the window is one of the many weird things about this case and one of the stronger pieces of evidence, IMHO, of JR's involvement. If he had noticed the window open on the day of and he honestly didn't know who kidnapped/killed JB and wanted to find out, he would tell the police about that window immediately and ask them to dust for fingerprints.
This whole mess makes me think of something that happened to me. I remember once going into a friend's room to get something while she was out of town. Her roommates hadn't been in her room since she had left two days before. The day she left it was one of those weird 75 degree days we sometimes get in January where I live, but the day I came it was 30 degrees and there was a light snow coming down. When I opened the door to go into her room, that cold hit me like a ton of bricks. She'd left her window partially open, and her relatively large room was absolutely frigid. Not only that, but when I went to close the window, it was wet from the snow and ice coming down. Even knowing that basements tend to be relatively cold anyway, I find it extremely unlikely that no one other than JR noticed that the window had been open. Especially since they were looking for a point-of-entry or point-of-exit. Wouldn't someone else have commented that, hey, maybe he came through the window? Or even remarked on how cold it was in the room and perhaps that might be because one of the windows didn't shut all the way?
I think it's possible the window had been broken at some point, it's also possible JR had found it randomly open at some point; a lot of the best lies draw from the truth. I've also thought maybe PR or BR opened the window at some point during the staging but JR closed it again right away, thinking it was too small to be an entry-point or that the door might be a better one to claim. After all, there were likely to be fingerprints from many different people on the front door but probably just the family on the window.
I suspect JR decided to tell the story about the open window as a point-of-entry at a later date when he realized the police didn't see a viable one anywhere and thus believed it had to be someone living in the house who killed JB.
Anti-K
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When the police arrived – French and Veitch - they did a cursory search of the house and the basement; they were down there before White and before Ramsey, so the police should have already known if the window was broken, open or ajar without anyone telling them anything.
I can understand Mr Ramsey not mentioning anything about the window simply because there was nothing unusual about it. It was often left open/ajar and had been broken for some time. But, the police would know nothing about this and a broken window is an obvious possible entry point. Why didn’t they ask the Ramseys about it?
Go to the 00:37 mark in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a and pause play. See the basement window? The top half of the upper window panes are not visible. The hole in the broken window is in the top half of the upper pane. So, maybe French and Veitch didn’t notice it and this would explain why the Ramseys weren’t asked about it.
I can also see how the officers not asking about or mentioning the broken window could have caused Ramsey and White (who also knew about the window but said nothing) to think, at the time, that it must not be that important.
...
AK
I can understand Mr Ramsey not mentioning anything about the window simply because there was nothing unusual about it. It was often left open/ajar and had been broken for some time. But, the police would know nothing about this and a broken window is an obvious possible entry point. Why didn’t they ask the Ramseys about it?
Go to the 00:37 mark in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a and pause play. See the basement window? The top half of the upper window panes are not visible. The hole in the broken window is in the top half of the upper pane. So, maybe French and Veitch didn’t notice it and this would explain why the Ramseys weren’t asked about it.
I can also see how the officers not asking about or mentioning the broken window could have caused Ramsey and White (who also knew about the window but said nothing) to think, at the time, that it must not be that important.
...
AK
inspector rex
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That's a very good point and goes to show that there are still things I haven't given a lot of thought to.
If the police officers were in the basement searching for clues about her kidnappers, an open/broken window would be something they should be on the look out for.
But did they even go in the room?
Didn't John say in his interview that there was a chair and some other stuff in front of the door when he first went down and he had to move it to get into the train room?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went
8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a
10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old
11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,
12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe
13 that far.
That would have been before or after the officers arrived on the scene?
BoldBear
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I agree that there's a lot they didn't notice like opening up a door to a whole room. In a search of a home, you peer around the corners especially if you don't know the layout. If they walked into that room enough to peer around the corner, they should have been able to see the broken window. I'm really not sure why they didn't have police issued dark glasses and canes. After all, they were searching for a possible exit right? I don't think this was hidden--just overlooked.
It is very curious that JR did not mention the open and broken window to LE unless he really did break it earlier that year and left it open.
What bugs me is that JR went to search the basement but never looked in the wine cellar. FW did and saw nothing. He was shocked that JBR was there because he did look into the room earlier in the am.
What bugs me is that JR went to search the basement but never looked in the wine cellar. FW did and saw nothing. He was shocked that JBR was there because he did look into the room earlier in the am.