John Ramsey's Discover of JBR's Body

[andreww]

Fleet searched the basement without knowledge of the note. It’s a glaring behavioral clue. You can see why JR didn’t want to bring light to the note. It’s also another clue to JR’s early involvement.

But did Fleet even encounter John when he arrived at the house? I know John was very busy early on preparing the ransom and working with detectives on receiving the call that never came. Fleet has never spoken publicly about the days events and I don't recall the Ramseys ever talking about his arrival at the house.

 

[NanaNZA]

Abundance of behavioral clues + spontaneous utterances + proof of deception + blatant uncooperation with investigators = Overwhelming credible circumstantial evidence = guilt

 

[UKGuy]

John Ramsey never told Fleet White there was a ransom note. So, when Fleet first searched the basement he was unaware of the ransom note.

Cottonstar,
Excerpt, Perfect Murder Perfect Town

At 6:00 A.M. the telephone awakened Cliff Gaston. It was Patsy Ramsey. Priscilla took the call, and within minutes the Whites were dressed and on their way to the Ramseys’ house. When they arrived, the police and John Fernie were already there. Patsy was on the floor, hysterical, and her husband was trying to comfort her. It was still dark outside.

White told the detectives that he had been there only a few minutes when he started to search the house. Alone, he went down to the basement, found some of the lights on, and started calling out JonBenét’s name. It was so cluttered down there—with boxes stacked everywhere and shelves overflowing with odds and ends—that he could hardly see any open spaces where she might be.

He started in Burke’s train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window, he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window. White said he was sure the window was closed but unlatched. After he left the train room, he turned right, into the boiler room. At the back of the room, he said, he saw a door to what the Ramseys called the wine cellar. He turned the closed wooden latch and opened the door. The room was pitch-black, he said. He didn’t enter, and he saw nothing. When he couldn’t find a light switch, he closed the door and went back upstairs. He did not remember whether or not he relatched the door. Later, when White saw John Fernie, he told him that a window downstairs had been punched open. The police wondered why White had not seen JonBenét’s body and later Ramsey had, since they both stood at the same spot after opening the door to the wine cellar? At 6:45 A.M., White said, his wife called home and told her niece that JonBenét had been kidnapped. Her niece, Heather, woke the other adults in the house and told them why Fleet and Priscilla were with the Ramseys.

White told the police that the Ramseys decided to wake their son, Burke, at around 7:00 and move him to his house. Fleet White and John Fernie, with Burke in hand, first picked up the Fernies’ children from their home and then took all the kids to the Whites’, where his guests looked after them. Forty-five minutes later, the two men returned to the Ramseys’.

JonBenet Ramsey: How the Investigation Got Derailed -- and Why It Still Matters

When Priscilla White answered the phone at her Boulder home at six in the morning on December 26, 1996, she knew that something terrible had happened. Why else would anyone be calling so early, the day after Christmas? But the news was worse than anything she could imagine.

The voice on the line belonged to a frantic Patsy Ramsey. "JonBenét's been kidnapped," she said. "Come over right now. Call the FBI."

She hung up before the stunned Priscilla could say much of anything.

The Peter Boyles Show White's are Interviewed, MP3 Podcast

Fleet and Priscilla White along with Alan Prendergast of Westword on the JonBenet Ramsey case - why the investigation got derailed and why it still matters

Peter Boyles Show - Dec 18, 2014 - Hr 4
In the podcast, towards the end, the White's suggest reading Kolar's book to find out who killed JonBenet, e.g. avoiding litigation and hinting bigtime that the case is RDI

.

 

[NanaNZA]

Whoa, hold the phone. JR was comforting his wife? Thank you for those excerpts, UK Guy!
I thought I read that Fleet called PMPT a bunch of lies; I wonder what he was referring to, if this is
I also did not know Fernie went Fleet (and BR).

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
Excerpt, Perfect Murder Perfect Town


JonBenet Ramsey: How the Investigation Got Derailed -- and Why It Still Matters


The Peter Boyles Show White's are Interviewed, MP3 Podcast

Peter Boyles Show - Dec 18, 2014 - Hr 4
In the podcast, towards the end, the White's suggest reading Kolar's book to find out who killed JonBenet, e.g. avoiding litigation and hinting bigtime that the case is RDI

.

Huh? Yes, they were aware that the Ramseys said their daughter had been kidnapped. However, Fleet was never told there was a note until later on in the morning.

 

[UKGuy]

Whoa, hold the phone. JR was comforting his wife? Thank you for those excerpts, UK Guy!
I thought I read that Fleet called PMPT a bunch of lies; I wonder what he was referring to, if this is
I also did not know Fernie went Fleet (and BR).

NanaNZA,
All the various books and accounts vary in some details and times, but in general they all agree the events took place, so the timings do not compromise any theories, e.g. PMPT times vary from Steve Thomas' book.

Check all those ads in the podcast aimed at the high net worth folks in Denver.

Fleet White is definitely saying via Boyles and Pendergast that JR plays the media, seeding stories which are smoke and mirror diversions from any possible RDI, note the Ramsey Mountain News reference.

Also right at the end which JR would say is just a promo for Kolar's book, is the hint to read the book to find out who killed JonBenet, i.e. this is what Boyles asked when he returned from the ad break.

If Fleet White cannot get anywhere in the Colarado Courts due to one judge being available, I reckon he will write a book outlining his account wrt wine-cellar that morning.

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[UKGuy]

Huh? Yes, they were aware that the Ramseys said their daughter had been kidnapped. However, Fleet was never told there was a note until later on in the morning.

Cottonstar,
Sure, so what would reading the RN do for Fleet White, Priscilla would have told him JonBenet's been Kidnapped?

Fleet White also knows stuff we do not, i.e. how was JonBenet's hair dressed at his party?


Even although Fleet White cannot be 100% on this aspect, when he returned down to wine-cellar, despite being told not to, he must have had a good idea if he could have missed JonBenet earlier that day.

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[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
Sure, so what would reading the RN do for Fleet White, Priscilla would have told him JonBenet's been Kidnapped?

Fleet White also knows stuff we do not, i.e. how was JonBenet's hair dressed at his party?


Even although Fleet White cannot be 100% on this aspect, when he returned down to wine-cellar, despite being told not to, he must have had a good idea if he could have missed JonBenet earlier that day.

.

I suspect John didn’t want his best friend to firsthand scour the note immediately. Fleet would recognize the tone and writing of the note or at least be awfully suspicious of it. I believe Fleet knew pretty much what happened that day.

 

[UKGuy]

I suspect John didn’t want his best friend to firsthand scour the note immediately. Fleet would recognize the tone and writing of the note or at least be awfully suspicious of it. I believe Fleet knew pretty much what happened that day.

Cottonstar,
I reckon JR hoodwinked Fleet White and he never realized until JR found JonBenet, this is what prompted him to return back to the wine-cellar, despite being told not to and also knowing it was a homicide crime-scene, he must have thought how did JR see what I never earlier this morning?

So he went back to check out what you could see, not what he could find, at this point the alarm bells must have been ringing for Fleet White?

In the Boyles podcast Fleet White's GJ testimony is referenced along with his hints regarding BPD burying the background legal documents, meaning he thinks the R's are being protected.

It appears Fleet White is saying: knowing what I heard at the Grand Jury and what there is to read in the Kolar book the case looks like its RDI.

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[EastCoast]

FW imo knows a lot more than what he has been able to come forward and say. He was there. He was close to the Ramseys.
He was able to come to his own conclusions. Both Fleet and Priscilla know the politics between the DA and BPD. We should pay attention to what they have said and done.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
I reckon JR hoodwinked Fleet White and he never realized until JR found JonBenet, this is what prompted him to return back to the wine-cellar, despite being told not to and also knowing it was a homicide crime-scene, he must have thought how did JR see what I never earlier this morning?

So he went back to check out what you could see, not what he could find, at this point the alarm bells must have been ringing for Fleet White?

In the Boyles podcast Fleet White's GJ testimony is referenced along with his hints regarding BPD burying the background legal documents, meaning he thinks the R's are being protected.

It appears Fleet White is saying: knowing what I heard at the Grand Jury and what there is to read in the Kolar book the case looks like its RDI.

.

Alarm bells were ringing way before 1pm.

Thank you for this, Cottonstar. So Fleet was searching under assumption that she was just missing, not a kidnapping. Seems odd that this crucial information was not related to him by someone immediately.

He knew the Ramseys had said she had been kidnapped however, he was unaware of the ransom note at the time he searched the basement. Officer Karl Veitch collected it and took it back to the BPD.

 

[EastCoast]

And FW falling out in Atlanta with JR. About the news interviews and not returning to assist BPD. FW saw right through that. He didn't get it, we don't get it. Not a normal reaction. FW hightailed it back to Colorado. I don't blame him. I think he was the only clear thinking person in the whole devastating sequence of events.

 

[CircuitGuy]

A common claim among the "Ramsey's Did It" theorists is that John Ramsey knew JBR's body was in the basement wine cellar room all along and then "discovered" the body himself to contaminate the crime scene and appear like a shocked and distraught father seeing his daughter dead for the first time as part of an elaborate cover-up and staging strategy.

My guess is JR knew JBR's body was there all along and the police would find it. I don't think the coverup was well through through. It was something thought up in the middle of the night in desperation. It made no sense. I suspect JR went and found the body for Tell-Tale Heart reasons, because he couldn't take the waiting, and it would look less guilty if he found the body.

The point is it would be inconceivable for the Ramsey's to believe that the police would not search the house for JBR

I think he knew they would and that the RN wasn't consistent with the body being in the house, making this plan a longshot.

Also, if John Ramsey knew his daughter was dead in the wine cellar all along, why wait so long to find her? The 911 call was placed at 5.52 am and the body was not found until 1.05 pm - that's just over 7 hours. The longer her body is there, the more likely it becomes that it would be found by police.

In retrospect, after thinking about even half as much as many people here have thought about it, it may have been better to call the police in the early morning hours saying they woke up hearing an intruder who they believe fled. Let the police find the body.

 

[kaykay543]

My guess is JR knew JBR's body was there all along and the police would find it. I don't think the coverup was well through through. It was something thought up in the middle of the night in desperation. It made no sense. I suspect JR went and found the body for Tell-Tale Heart reasons, because he couldn't take the waiting, and it would look less guilty if he found the body.


I think he knew they would and that the RN wasn't consistent with the body being in the house, making this plan a longshot.


In retrospect, after thinking about even half as much as many people here have thought about it, it may have been better to call the police in the early morning hours saying they woke up hearing an intruder who they believe fled. Let the police find the body.

I have always felt the plan was for the police to find her. When they didn’t; I think JR couldn’t take it anymore so he “found” her for them. I think the stress was too much for him and PR. They just wanted to get it over with and get in their plane and out of Colorado.

 

[UKGuy]

I have always felt the plan was for the police to find her. When they didn’t; I think JR couldn’t take it anymore so he “found” her for them. I think the stress was too much for him and PR. They just wanted to get it over with and get in their plane and out of Colorado.

kaykay543,
You would think so, yet many think JR tweaked the basement crime-scene later that morning, consider the open window, the chair blocking the door, the suitcase under the window, JonBenet possibly being relocated, so why did JR not revise his original strategy and stay in the house?

Also if JR and PR got away with it, literally fleeing interstate, does this mean they would have left BR behind along with JonBenet?

Would Fleet White have phoned BPD, FBI, etc to say JR just took BR and he is flying out of Colorado in ten minutes?

Also if JR and PR were willing to abandon BR, does this mean the case is either JDI or PDI?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Why does the Chair matter: because it tells us when JR was in the basement in relation to other people.


1998 June 25, 26, 27 - Taped Interrogation interview of John Ramsey by Lou Smit and Michael Kane in Colorado

NE Book Page 314


"Like Patsy, John was shown a series of crime scene photographs. One showed a chair blocking the door into the train room in the basement. To get to the broken window in the cellar, someone has to go through that door. Ramsey found the chair blocking the entranceway during his first search of the basement, moved it and then moved it back, he said. The information cast some doubt on the intruder theory."

Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"

John Ramsey: "Correct"

Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?"

John Ramsey: "Uh huh."

Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"

John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."

Lou Smit: "So you couldn't have gotten in without moving the chair?"

John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."

Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"

John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."

So there you go John says he put the chair back, but if Rick French and Fleet White came after him how come they never mentioned the chair?

I reckon the evidence suggests JR was in the basement after Rick French and Fleet White had finished their search, plus JR never knew Fleet White had been in the Train Room, so probably felt safe in saying what he did.

Looks to me as if JR intended the chair to act as evidence of some kind, either to suggest the Train Room had had little traffic, or imply movement of the chair suggests an agent?


Field Report Narrative and Supplement, 12-26-1996 by Reporting Officer Rick French, Excerpt

...

I spoke with Mr. White, and he told me that JonBenet had been found in the basement by Mr. Ramsey while Mr. White and Mr. Ramsey were looking through the house.


Mr. White told me that he had opened the door to that area earlier in the morning and had not seen JonBenet's body inside.


I secured the area around where Mr. Ramsey had laid the body and assisted in getting the family and friends out of the house to close the crime scene.


I left the house at approximately 0345(sic) hours and OFCs Weiss and Schunk were securing the front and the back respectively.


Burke Ramsey was awakened by his father shortly after Mr. White arrived and he was taken to the White's residence as soon as he was dressed. I did not speak to him other than to walk him to Mr Fernie's vehicle. He seemed confused and was crying and Mr Ramsey again told me he had slept through the night.


...


Conclusion Paraphrasing: case reassigned from abduction to that of homicide.

With Rick French reporting Fleet White looked into the wine-cellar and had not seen JonBenet's body along with the Chair arriving after Rick French and Fleet White search the basement suggests to me that JR was down in the basement tweaking the evidence and possibly moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar in anticipation of finding her?


.

 

[Cottonstar]

"Like Patsy, John was shown a series of crime scene photographs. One showed a chair blocking the door into the train room in the basement. To get to the broken window in the cellar, someone has to go through that door. Ramsey found the chair blocking the entranceway during his first search of the basement, moved it and then moved it back, he said. The information cast some doubt on the intruder theory."

UK-

This isn’t entirely correct. There was no crime scene photo of the red chair blocking the train room door. In a post earlier this year, I showed how the red chair never moved an inch in the kidnapping phase photos to the photos/video that was taken over 12 hours later after they retained the search warrant.

I don’t believe JR actually ever saw the red chair blocking the train room door. He was caught out in his interview with Smit, because he was unaware that photos had been taken already of the basement by the time he officially says he made his first trip to the basement. This is why he stumbles, and has to admit that he was in the basement prior to 7am.

 

[UKGuy]

UK-

This isn’t entirely correct. There was no crime scene photo of the red chair blocking the train room door. In a post earlier this year, I showed how the red chair never moved an inch in the kidnapping phase photos to the photos/video that was taken over 12 hours later after they retained the search warrant.

I don’t believe JR actually ever saw the red chair blocking the train room door. He was caught out in his interview with Smit, because he was unaware that photos had been taken already of the basement by the time he officially says he made his first trip to the basement. This is why he stumbles, and has to admit that he was in the basement prior to 7am.

Cottonstar,
I'm confused, so there was no photo put in front of JR yet he says he moved the chair, why would he do that?

You reckon he just tried to talk his way through Lou Smit's interview saying whatever?

.

 

[kaykay543]

UK-

This isn’t entirely correct. There was no crime scene photo of the red chair blocking the train room door. In a post earlier this year, I showed how the red chair never moved an inch in the kidnapping phase photos to the photos/video that was taken over 12 hours later after they retained the search warrant.

I don’t believe JR actually ever saw the red chair blocking the train room door. He was caught out in his interview with Smit, because he was unaware that photos had been taken already of the basement by the time he officially says he made his first trip to the basement. This is why he stumbles, and has to admit that he was in the basement prior to 7am.

This was also addressed I believe in kolars book. He thinks JR totally made up the story about the chair blocking the door. It sounded like LS didn’t even believe it

 

[UKGuy]

This was also addressed I believe in kolars book. He thinks JR totally made up the story about the chair blocking the door. It sounded like LS didn’t even believe it

kaykay543,
Sure, I get that, but what I was trying to drill down to was why, what was the percentage for JR?

Meaning if JR is making the Chair story up then is it to hide something else, e.g. dead cat on the table strategy?

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