JonBenet Ramsey: What Really Happened?

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Perhaps Susan Stine had a visitor such as Judith P, and was called out on it. Perhaps this is the reason to tell BPD. One has to questions her motives here. After all it’s highly likely it was her son that rode off in the night on the bike. There is so much going on behind the scenes here of which me know not of.

Since BR, stated in his own words “He was basically just getting on with my life, you know.” How did he know so much detail about the crime? Why the basement? Where did his bike go that night? What is his explanation? A shrug of the shoulders?
What versions of events do you believe in and why? I’d love to hear it.



They are currently airing more Jonbenet movies and Dr. Phil w/BR again in my area. Makes one wonder about JR’s health. JAR rearing his head from out of the darkness these past 25 years? Something is up. Hint, hint, hint.

I think it would be awesome if we could get DS dna. DS and BR have remained friends to this day. I am sure (if a cover needs to be made) then they have already got their plot down. Again, where did the bike go? Or, perhaps somebody got that covered for them?

I understand you place importance on the stained pajama pants found in JB bedroom. No doubt it is significant especially if the chocolates were also covered in the same dna poo. This would explain the case of events taking place in the bedroom verses downstairs in let’s say the Sunroom.

I say, I will place us back at the bowl of nonchalant bowl of pineapple.

As for where are the fecally stained pajamas, I shall quote you:

Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 370 - 371
There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.
Kolar can only have sourced this information from police reports or by interview of an actual investigator or psychologist, etc other than directly from Burke Ramsey's mouth?

And, I reply ...
Must be in the evidence locker, hey?

Rain on my Parade,
Burke knew far more about JonBenet's death, including insider details that could not have been sourced from the Media.

A telling hint takes place during the 911 call when some people believe they can hear Burke Ramsey saying, "What did you find?"

Dr. Phil asked him about this.

DP: Did you speak those words?
BR: No.
DP: Were you there when that call was made?
BR: No.
DP: So you were not there and you did not speak those words?
BR: That's correct.
DP: It's also been speculated that your father can be heard yelling, "We're not speaking to you."
BR: Definitely don't remember that. I don't know. Unless someone erased my memory or something.

Burke's last answer says he has contracted ramnesia, but as per his previous answers He was not there, so why develop ramnesia?

From a staging POV why would Burke Ramsey think there is anything to find in the basement, why not JonBenet's bedroom? i.e. does Burke Ramsey know JonBenet is in the basement because he placed her there?

This suggests Burke Ramsey was involved in the death of his sister and helped to stage the wine-cellar crime-scene.

DS may have been involved with him returning home on BR's bike. DS might be a critical witness necessitating JR employing Glenn Stine? It would be interesting to hear what Susan Stine said to the Grand Jury, why was she called to testify?

With no DS involved, BR might have visited the basement with JonBenet, then returned upstairs to JonBenet's bedroom?

Alternately, after snacking pineapple, JonBenet and Burke Ramsey retire to her bedroom, i.e. a repeat of Christmas Eve, what follows is open to interpretation, e.g. sexual assault, head blow, asphyxiation?

They likely took place in JonBenet's bedroom, with the possibility some occurred in the basement?

We can link Burke Ramsey to the wine-cellar via his touch-dna deposited on JonBenet's bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown, i.e. either the dna was deposited in her bedroom, or the dna was deposited the wine-cellar, even possibly the breakfast bar?

If you accept Kolar's/CSIs opinion, then Burke Ramsey can be directly linked to JonBenet's bedroom, not such a large leap, since we know they shared bedrooms regularly, as recent as Christmas Eve.

We can also link Burke Ramsey to the Breakfast Bar via his fingerprints on the teaglass and pineapple bowl. JonBenet links indirectly to the breakfast bar via the pineapple found in her stomach.

So that is a stronger circumstantial nexus that that of any of the parents, only Patsy might match BR here?

Why are the pajamas left on JonBenet's bedroom floor important? Because as per Kolar/CSIs opinion that they contained Fecal Material. Meaning we can test to identify who deposited the fecal material. Similarly for the other smeared items in JonBenet's bedroom!

What color are they

Do they match the color of the pair worn by Burke Ramsey Christmas Morning, as above?

Other aspects related to the pajamas containing Fecal Material is the evidence of a housekeeper who said excrement the size of a grapefruit was once smeared on the young girl's bed sheets.

Linda Hoffman-Pugh said: "After they sealed off JonBenet's room, the crime scene technicians went through it, they apparently found faeces smeared on a box of candy she had got for Christmas."

Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? by A. James Kolar; pages 367-70:, Excerpt

"I had reviewed an investigator’s report that documented a 1997 interview with former Ramsey nanny - housekeeper Geraldine Vodicka, who stated that Burke had smeared feces on the walls of a bathroom during his mother’s first bout with cancer. She told investigators that Nedra Paugh, who was visiting the Ramsey home at the time, had directed her to clean up the mess.

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenet's bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke."

So we might have a Behavioral Pattern here, one that could indicate intimidation, this is a conclusion I reached after amending JonBenet's Victim Profile, a previous summary is on websleuths.

So for those interested in a BDI theory, can you exclude a DS linked instance, what would be the criteria, having done so what might be the possible sequence of events leading upto and beyond JonBenet's death?

Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? by A. James Kolar; pages 367-70:, Excerpt

The second important event to occur that winter involved additional discoveries that were related to the behavioral symptoms of a childhood disorder.

While working on the written case outline that was completed in October 2006, I became aware of a childhood behavioral disorder that revolved around the issue of sexually aggressive children. I learned about clinical research that had been conducted on the topic of children with a behavioral disorder commonly referred to as “Sexual Behavior Problems”, or “SBP.”

i.e. is JonBenet's death a climax in someone elses bizarre scenario, does it end with the emission of Fecal Matter, and the smearing of JonBenet's Candy Box, or are these events reversed?

Kolar's outline regarding Sexual Behavior Problems (SBP) was, IMO polite or restrained, particularly if you consider it in light of the above observed Behavioral Patterns, i.e what was really going on?

Is it possible that JonBenet's internal injury was another behavioral pattern repeating, e.g. chronic internal scarring, was it postmortem, happening after the pajamas containing Fecal Material were left discarded on the floor or did it coincide with the internal injury?

Did the smearing on the Candy Box then follow or precede the above speculation?


Speculating, did Burke Ramsey move a redressed JonBenet down to the basement to construct a distance between himself and JonBenet, or did his parents enact this?

Additions to JonBenet's Victim Profile include a timeline, an outline of her abuser(s), Sleepover victimisation, Sibling rivalry, Prior acts of sexual assault, Other acts of physical violence, leading to the tentative conclusion that JonBenet was the victim of inter-family sexual abuse.

For the record:

Ramsey’s attorney Lin Wood publicly stated: “In May of 1999, the Boulder District Attorney and the Boulder Police Department publicly confirmed that Burke Ramsey was not a suspect or even a possible suspect.

And, I reply ...
Must be in the evidence locker, hey?

Lets hope so, even better fecal samples were taken, it might break the case and bring Justice for JonBenet!

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Lets hope so, even better fecal samples were taken, it might break the case and bring Justice for JonBenet!

UKGuy,
Since Kolar has reason to mention the fecal stained pajamas (to big for JB) he obviously saw this in a file. I suspect they have already tested the pajama pants.

Since BR couldn’t be considered a suspect (for no other reason then his age) would he still be held responsible should the facts line up against him?

I watched the Dr. Phil interview #1 last night. I cannot stress the point enough ... body language speaks volumes in this case. You ever ask yourself why when JR states he did not kill his daughter, he is shaking his head yes?

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,

Sure as David Rogers said,” if DS was involved.” Let’s not forget SS not only became PR watch dog after this event; she and her husband followed them to Atlanta. Plus she impersonated the chief of police. That’s a lot of hoops to jump through when everyone else was deserted. Ask yourself, “Why did the Ramsey’s remain friends with this couple after the murder”?

They, unlike the Whites and the Fernies, weren't there that morning; therefore, they're easier to manipulate.

What BR said was somebody took her quietly down to the basement. He did not say who. How did he know she was taken there? Hit on the head?

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he overheard something.

According to Kolar.

Were measurements taken of those pajama pants? Were those measurements compared to pajama pants in Burke's room?

 

[UKGuy]

They, unlike the Whites and the Fernies, weren't there that morning; therefore, they're easier to manipulate.





It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he overheard something.





Were measurements taken of those pajama pants? Were those measurements compared to pajama pants in Burke's room?

icedtea4me,

They, unlike the Whites and the Fernies, weren't there that morning; therefore, they're easier to manipulate.

Sure, so if they are on the buddy list for employment, why were they not called over?

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he overheard something.

He would either be present or listening on at a distance, even on another phone listening intently?

This aspect is one of those events that can fork your RDI theory, since if Burke Ramsey is present during the 911 call, then he knowingly colluded in the postmortem staging.

Why the need for that if your not involved in JonBenet's death?

Rivera Live Transcript on August 21, 1998, Excerpt

Page 17 of transcript:

Mr. SHEA: Sure. Thank you.

CLARK: We're gonna take a break here, and when we return, the latest in the JonBenet Ramsey investigation. New reports say that during Patsy Ramsey's hysterical 911 call to the police, John Ramsey is heard telling his young son, "Go Back to Bed." We'll be right back.

MARCIA CLARK, host:

There's news on two fronts in the JonBenet Ramsey case this week. First, there's surprising information about the 911 call that Patsy Ramsey made to police to report her daughter missing. Although the Ramseys told investigators that their son Burke, then 10 years old, was asleep when the call was made, a transcript of the 911 conversation apparently shows otherwise. According to the National Enquirer, which broke the story and other published reports, Burke can be heard speaking in a newly enhanced version of the audiotape.

After Patsy Ramsey screams, 'Help me, Jesus. Help me, Jesus,' Burke reportedly says, 'Please, what do I do?' According to the reports, John Ramsey then says in a supposedly angry voice, 'It's none of your business. Go back to bed. We're not speaking to you,' or words to that effect. Patsy's again heard screaming, 'Help me, Jesus. Help me, Jesus,' after which Burke clearly says, 'But what did you find?' Additionally, the Enquirer reports that, according to a source, Burke Ramsey recently told authorities he heard some kind of noises around the time his little sister was murdered. The paper quotes the source as saying, quote, "Detectives are convinced Burke saw or heard something that could crack this case," end quote.

2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation", Excerpt

...

"The father lifted the dust ruffle to peer beneath his daughter's bed and was told not to touch anything else. They left the room as a telephone rang, and Ramsey answered, 'JonBenet's been kidnapped,' he said and began crying. The lights were off in the nearby bedroom of the second child, and Reichenbach looked in on Burke Ramsey, who appeared sleep, then closed that door."

The National Enquirer Article - April 3, 2001, Excerpt

The National Enquirer - Ramseys change their story about murder night
By David Wright & Don Gentile

"John and Patsy Ramsey have changed the story they told cops about their daughter JonBenet's murder -- they now admit their son Burke was awake during that Christmas 1996 nightmare!

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

"Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."

Get that, according to JR Burke was awake before the 911 call.

So JR has distanced BR by necessity, but what if he was physically present and JR is covering for him, if BR is asking about what was found, this can only be because he knows what there is to be found, i.e JonBenet?

Were measurements taken of those pajama pants? Were those measurements compared to pajama pants in Burke's room?

Or placed along side a measuring stick, we live in hope?

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Since Kolar has reason to mention the fecal stained pajamas (to big for JB) he obviously saw this in a file. I suspect they have already tested the pajama pants.

Since BR couldn’t be considered a suspect (for no other reason then his age) would he still be held responsible should the facts line up against him?

I watched the Dr. Phil interview #1 last night. I cannot stress the point enough ... body language speaks volumes in this case. You ever ask yourself why when JR states he did not kill his daughter, he is shaking his head yes?

Rain on my Parade,
If they have tested the pajamas they will have been photographed before and after, and indexed the lab results somewhere.

Since BR couldn’t be considered a suspect (for no other reason then his age) would he still be held responsible should the facts line up against him?

I reckon he can be a bona fide suspect but not be prosecuted for JonBenet's death due to him being beneath the age of criminal responsibility?

would he still be held responsible should the facts line up against him?

Nope, he gets away Scot Free. Unless we publish the facts and procure Justice for JonBenet.

Ol Lizard Lips is a master of the ambiguous body movement, might even be JR is so old his neck muscles are weak and no longer co-ordinate, very common in the elderly, you can see this effect in some elderly folks as they talk they appear to droop their heads!

Since we have evidence from the parents that BR was wide awake during the 911 call, I'm now of the opinion that Burke Ramsey staged JonBenet in the basement, with the parents waking up to then tidy up an amateurish staging?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>
I watched the Dr. Phil interview #1 last night. I cannot stress the point enough ... body language speaks volumes in this case. You ever ask yourself why when JR states he did not kill his daughter, he is shaking his head yes?

Was that from the 1 May 97 CNN interview?

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,

Sure, so if they are on the buddy list for employment, why were they not called over?

They weren't called over because they knew they were going to need a family to get close to after everything went down on the 26th. Chances are if the Stines were also present at the Ramsey home, then they'd wind up being just as suspicious of John and Patsy as the Fernies and Whites.

<snip>So JR has distanced BR by necessity, but what if he was physically present and JR is covering for him, if BR is asking about what was found, this can only be because he knows what there is to be found, i.e JonBenet</snip>?

Patsy told the 911 operator in so many words that she found a note. That's what Burke's "What did you find?" is about.

 

[icedtea4me]

Who was it who stated in DoI that when they removed the lid to the My Twinn Doll box in the basement laundry room, they saw JonBenet lying in a coffin- Patsy or Burke?

(A wish disguised as a fear to make the wish more palatable.)

 

[Rain on my Parade]

They, unlike the Whites and the Fernies, weren't there that morning; therefore, they're easier to manipulate.

icedtea4me,

Both the Whites and the Fernies were exiled because they were there that morning and the fact that the did not offer staunch support. The Stine’s on the other hand offered staunch support and were privy to crime scene information via their sons (who remain best friends) = not exiled.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he overheard something.

When, where and with whom do you suppose he overheard these details?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Was that from the 1 May 97 CNN interview?

icedtea4me,

Yes, JR was nodding his head yes (to did he kill JB) during the CNN interview of 97 which was part of the Dr. Phil episode dated 9/15/16. Season 15, episode 4.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

They weren't called over because they knew they were going to need a family to get close to after everything went down on the 26th. Chances are if the Stines were also present at the Ramsey home, then they'd wind up being just as suspicious of John and Patsy as the Fernies and Whites.

icedtea4me,

How did they already know they were going to need a family to get close to after the murder? Are you saying that they are guilty and therefore already knew what it was they were going to need as far as friendships go from that day forward?

 

[root661]

Rain on my Parade,
If they have tested the pajamas they will have been photographed before and after, and indexed the lab results somewhere.

Nope, he gets away Scot Free. Unless we publish the facts and procure Justice for JonBenet.

.

But couldn't BR be held accountable in the civil suits as he sued people for liable? Potentially JR as well?

 

[fr brown]

UKGuy,
Since Kolar has reason to mention the fecal stained pajamas (to big for JB) he obviously saw this in a file. I suspect they have already tested the pajama pants.

Since BR couldn’t be considered a suspect (for no other reason then his age) would he still be held responsible should the facts line up against him?

I watched the Dr. Phil interview #1 last night. I cannot stress the point enough ... body language speaks volumes in this case. You ever ask yourself why when JR states he did not kill his daughter, he is shaking his head yes?

Kolar in his AMA admitted that he had no evidence that such an item had been collected.

It's reasonable to assume he would have thoroughly researched this, but in fact it seems that he only read a CSI note.

 

[UKGuy]

They weren't called over because they knew they were going to need a family to get close to after everything went down on the 26th. Chances are if the Stines were also present at the Ramsey home, then they'd wind up being just as suspicious of John and Patsy as the Fernies and Whites.




Patsy told the 911 operator in so many words that she found a note. That's what Burke's "What did you find?" is about.

icedtea4me,

Patsy told the 911 operator in so many words that she found a note. That's what Burke's "What did you find?"

...

911: What's going on ma'am?

...

Patsy Ramsey: We have a kidnapping. Hurry, please!

911: Explain to me what's going on. Ok?

Patsy Ramsey: There. We have a, there's a note left and our daughter's gone.

911: A note was left and your daughter's gone?

Patsy Ramsey: Yes!

...

Assuming the call was made from the basement laundry room:

So Patsy does not use the word Found just the indeterminate We have, with John and Burke present, Burke knows what is going on.

Asking What did you find suggests he is faking ignorance. Why does he not ask Did find JonBenet?

Not even Where is JonBenet? He does not appear too concerned, as you know he then retired to bed to fake being asleep.

Did the parents find JonBenet staged down in the basement, fully aware it was the work of Burke Ramsey, they then amended the staging to suit their Abduction Scenario, told Burke what his role was to be, then dialled 911?

BDI explains why Burke's penknife is found left in the basement, Dr. Suess book, broken window, footprint, etc, all amateurish staging, which the parents revised and tweaked.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Kolar in his AMA admitted that he had no evidence that such an item had been collected.

fr brown,
It's reasonable to assume he would have thoroughly researched this, but in fact it seems that he only read a CSI note.

fr brown,
Sure, but the CSI note is saying the pajama bottoms containing Fecal Matter existed, the note is written confirmation.

Not collecting the item just means it can never be produced in court.

Could be the CSI officer remembers what color they were? We can accept their relative size as given, since it was so evident it merited a comment.

I'll be happy to work from just the color given the nature of the case, and what we know regarding Burke and JonBenet sharing bedrooms, along with Burke's prior history of smearing fecal matter on a wall.

No wonder the parents did not want anyone reading the children's medical records with Dr. Beuf saying they were destroyed, convenient that, just like the pajama bottoms containing Fecal Matter.

A simple lab test could have ruled JonBenet in as depositing the fecal matter in the pajama bottoms.

With fecal matter on JonBenet's Candy Box, and on the pajama bottoms surely BPD will have tested for non-ramsey dna?

Burke and JonBenet Christmas Morning

What if the CSI officer were to say they were the same color as the pajama bottoms worn by Burke Ramsey in the above photo?
.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,

How did they already know they were going to need a family to get close to after the murder? Are you saying that they are guilty and therefore already knew what it was they were going to need as far as friendships go from that day forward?

Yes. Yes, I am.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Are you saying that they are guilty and therefore already knew what it was they were going to need as far as friendships go from that day forward?

Yes. Yes, I am.

icedtea4me,

Don’t you think that is a bit of a stretch? I guess not. Logically it would make more sense if the reason they weren’t called over that next morning is that both of their sons were involved (BFF). After all they had a lot of tracks to cover; in a short span of time. Since you don’t agree with this theory ...
Can you explain IYO the most logical who, what, where took BR bike that night?

 

[icedtea4me]

Are you saying that they are guilty and therefore already knew what it was they were going to need as far as friendships go from that day forward?



icedtea4me,

Don’t you think that is a bit of a stretch? I guess not. Logically it would make more sense if the reason they weren’t called over that next morning is that both of their sons were involved (BFF). After all they had a lot of tracks to cover; in a short span of time. Since you don’t agree with this theory ...
Can you explain IYO the most logical who, what, where took BR bike that night?

The only reason, it seems, why you and some others think that DS was there was because he didn't come to the door when the Ramseys dropped off their Xmas gift on their way home from the Whites. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the reason why he didn't come to the door was because he was in the bathroom, watching tv, or playing a video game.

Oh, by the way... In her 1996 Xmas letter, Patsy communicated that John's real love was made to look older than what she really was.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

The only reason, it seems, why you and some others think that DS was there was because he didn't come to the door when the Ramseys dropped off their Xmas gift on their way home from the Whites. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the reason why he didn't come to the door was because he was in the bathroom, watching tv, or playing a video game.

icedtea4me,

This is an assumption on your part. You do not know my reasoning.

Oh, by the way... In her 1996 Xmas letter, Patsy communicated that John's real love was made to look older than what she really was.

What does the Grand Season have to do with any of this?

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>

What does the Grand Season have to do with any of this?

Grand Season = Xmas

icedtea4me,



Assuming the call was made from the basement laundry room:

So Patsy does not use the word Found just the indeterminate We have, with John and Burke present, Burke knows what is going on.

Asking What did you find suggests he is faking ignorance. Why does he not ask Did find JonBenet?

Not even Where is JonBenet? He does not appear too concerned, as you know he then retired to bed to fake being asleep.

Did the parents find JonBenet staged down in the basement, fully aware it was the work of Burke Ramsey, they then amended the staging to suit their Abduction Scenario, told Burke what his role was to be, then dialled 911?

BDI explains why Burke's penknife is found left in the basement, Dr. Suess book, broken window, footprint, etc, all amateurish staging, which the parents revised and tweaked.

.

Anyone with an ounce of logic knows that if Burke did kill JonBenet that night unbeknownst to his parents, the last place he's going to want to be is anywhere near them.