JonBenet Ramson letter - written before or after + linguistics

[Ames]

Handwriting experts won't 'officially' say that PR wrote the note, because...

they're afraid?
money?
political infighting?

But 'unofficially' they say she wrote it.

Hmm... Is this what you think?? When zero out of five CDE's refuse to officially state that PR wrote the note is more than just a strikeout. Its a TKO. What they say unofficially becomes all the more irrelevant if it differs from the official view. If there is a difference between official and unofficial views, it casts doubt on professionalism.

I am not seeing the number ZERO here...Doesn't say how many....but, Ramsey experts say that Patsy did NOT write the RN. Well, what a "shock", of COURSE they are going to say that...they are PAID by the Ramsey's....duhhhhhh
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/1124558/detail.html


"Law enforcement handwriting experts have said that it looks like Patsy wrote the ransom note. Experts for the Ramseys said that it's obvious she did not write the note.

Hoffman, while questioning Patsy under oath, told her that his experts say it's clear that she wrote the note.

"It's not a close call as far as they're concerned. One of them identified you without a doubt as the author of the ransom note," Hoffman told Ramsey."

=================================================

9. Nevertheless, in light of the many similarities between the "ransom" note and Patsy Ramsey's exemplars, it is my professional opinion that Patsy Ramsey very likely wrote the "ransom" note. Dated: November 13, 1997.
(SIGNATURE OF CINA WONG)
CINA L. WONG, B.C.D.E.
STATE OF VIRGINIA:
Sworn to and subscribed before me this day of 13th day of November, 1997.
(SIGNATURE OF NOTARY)
NOTARY PUBLIC
My Commission expires August 31, 2001.
============================================================

"In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer. "David S. Liebman, C.D.E.

=================================================
"Don Foster from Vassar, the top linguistics man in the country, made his conclusion firm in March. "In my opinion, it is not possible that any individual except Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note," he told a special briefing in Boulder, adding that she had been unassisted in writing it."

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I am not seeing the number ZERO here...Doesn't say how many....but, Ramsey experts say that Patsy did NOT write the RN. Well, what a "shock", of COURSE they are going to say that...they are PAID by the Ramsey's....duhhhhhh

Superdave already knew this, but for your information, Ames, here goes:

No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]

This is where the 'zero' comes from. 'No' and 'none' means zero, right? That is, zero of the experts originally consulted by BPD would officially state that PR wrote the note. Superdave didn't dispute this, but you do for some reason?

Obviously, this was a major defeat for RDI. One of several major systematic defeats, actually.

 

[Ames]

Superdave already knew this, but for your information, Ames, here goes:

No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]

This is where the 'zero' comes from. 'No' and 'none' means zero, right? That is, zero of the experts originally consulted by BPD would officially state that PR wrote the note. Superdave didn't dispute this, but you do for some reason?

Obviously, this was a major defeat for RDI. One of several major systematic defeats, actually.

Enough handwriting experts have identified PR as the author of the RN, in my book. I really don't care WHO they worked for. My eyes do NOT deceive me, and I am NOT blind. PR IS the author of that RN.

What about THIS article...

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-67562317.html

<<Snipped>>

Byline: Manny Gonzales and Kevin McCullen Rocky Mountain News Staff Writers

"An expert hired by Boulder police concluded that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note left by her daughter's alleged kidnappers, ABC News will report Sunday."

Looks like its not ZERO afterall.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Enough handwriting experts have identified PR as the author of the RN, in my book. I really don't care WHO they worked for. My eyes do NOT deceive me, and I am NOT blind. PR IS the author of that RN.

What about THIS article...

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-67562317.html

<<Snipped>>

Byline: Manny Gonzales and Kevin McCullen Rocky Mountain News Staff Writers

"An expert hired by Boulder police concluded that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note left by her daughter's alleged kidnappers, ABC News will report Sunday."

Looks like its not ZERO afterall.

If the 'one' you're referring to is Foster, then its really still zero.

Thats because we're talklng handwriting analysis, not linguistics here. The article you're referring to of an expert hired by the police isn't a ABFDE certified document examiner.

We're back to this: NONE of the CDE's hired by BPD stated officially that PR authored the note. Isn't that bad news for RDI?

 

[voynich]

This is 23 pages long! :clap:

 

[GingBreade]

If Officer French (the first LE on the scene) had found the body first AND followed proper police procedure he would have left the body "in situ" right there on the floor of the wineceller, sealed the door and called in a murder. He would NOT have carried her up nor allowed anyone else down there to see her. The body would have remained untouched until examined by the coroner. At that point, the parents would be suspects because she was found dead in her own home. If they had been arrested, another relative or someone else would have been called into the morgue to identify the body before the autopsy.

THEN I'd like to see how they explained their fibers on the body, garrote and tape.

That is true that procedure would have said no contact with the body, but at the time I'm pretty sure there would be no holding the Ramseys back, especially with only 2 or 3 officers on the scene. I think that French would have yelled "Holy I found her..." and before officers got there P&J would have been touching and flopping on and smothering the crime scene...they had their race shoes on. BUT ALAS, the plan sucked and didn't work. That is why Patsy got all freaked out and couldn't move from her chair and John got all antsy.....you can only imagine how they were cursing the incompetence of the BPD. Hmmm.....what to do!!? Before the cops leave (and leave us to find the body!) we must find it - HOLY GEEZ we have witnesses galore and doctors to prescribe meds and EVERYTHING. Everything went according to plan except the 'finding' of the body - or did it?

DID he plan to find JB when he did? Hoped someone else would find her earlier? Did he 'stash' her somewhere else before moving her to the wc?

 

[ziggy]

Well, it took me a while to get through the 23 pages and I am very impressed with all of the work voynich and holdon have done here.

I find it very hard to buy this:

PR bashed her beloved daughter in the head, killing her, staged a sexual assault, fashioned a garrot with an intricate knot, and then wrote a ransom note and then SUDDENLY...
she can recall specific lines from very "non chick flick" movies in addition to references from L&L? It just doesn't make a lick of sense.

By the way I also read the account of the crime by John Douglas in a subsequent book and he is more an IDI.

 

[Ames]

If the 'one' you're referring to is Foster, then its really still zero.

Thats because we're talklng handwriting analysis, not linguistics here. The article you're referring to of an expert hired by the police isn't a ABFDE certified document examiner.

We're back to this: NONE of the CDE's hired by BPD stated officially that PR authored the note. Isn't that bad news for RDI?

Not really...

 

[voynich]

Well, it took me a while to get through the 23 pages and I am very impressed with all of the work voynich and holdon have done here.I.

I sensed a great disturbance in the Force

I feel my most impressive detective work to date is outing SD as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

If I had known this I probably would have called myself SithSlayer rather than voynich.

 

[voynich]

Well, it took me a while to get through the 23 pages and I am very impressed with all of the work voynich and holdon have done here.

I find it very hard to buy this:

PR bashed her beloved daughter in the head, killing her, staged a sexual assault, fashioned a garrot with an intricate knot, and then wrote a ransom note and then SUDDENLY...
she can recall specific lines from very "non chick flick" movies in addition to references from L&L? It just doesn't make a lick of sense.

By the way I also read the account of the crime by John Douglas in a subsequent book and he is more an IDI.

SD explains that JB told PR she and daddy were having sex again, so PR, was enraged rather than first engaging JR, she engaged JB and struck her head with a single blow hard enough to crack her skull.

 

[ziggy]

Yeah, I can make up stories too. There is no direct evidence to support any of that and those that are trying to piece together what happened should stick to facts, jmo.

I still can't imagine PR being able to suddenly recall movie lines and contemplating, "let's make this a little like Ransom, a little Speed thrown in..." etc. Ex beauty pageant Southern women are more into chick flicks. Even at that, very few women recall and recite lines from movies unless those lines are entrenched in our pop culture, such as "you had me at hello" (and that's the only one I can think of at the moment chick flick wise).

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Not really...

Why is it that when BPD hires several handwriting experts, CDE's to be exact, and NONE of them officially state PR as the author, is that not bad news for RDI? It seems to me that is a major failure, a huge loss, in the whole RDI argument. How can you say its 'not really' bad news?

Do you just say stuff?

 

[Sophie]

Why is it that when BPD hires several handwriting experts, CDE's to be exact, and NONE of them officially state PR as the author, is that not bad news for RDI? It seems to me that is a major failure, a huge loss, in the whole RDI argument. How can you say its 'not really' bad news?

Do you just say stuff?

Showing my ignorance here but is it common for handwriting experts to say categorically and without a margin of error that someone wrote something? I honestly thought they gave opinions and impressions but never a categoric 'yes' or 'no.' Is a categoric 'yes' or 'no' admissible in court as scientific evidence? Also, is there a set of rules and principles and a system for peer review of scholarship? I know almost nothing about this subject.

Just wondering, ty.

 

[Ames]

Yeah, I can make up stories too. There is no direct evidence to support any of that and those that are trying to piece together what happened should stick to facts, jmo.

I still can't imagine PR being able to suddenly recall movie lines and contemplating, "let's make this a little like Ransom, a little Speed thrown in..." etc. Ex beauty pageant Southern women are more into chick flicks. Even at that, very few women recall and recite lines from movies unless those lines are entrenched in our pop culture, such as "you had me at hello" (and that's the only one I can think of at the moment chick flick wise).

This is why I believe that John helped her write that RN. I have never thought that she did it on her own.

 

[Ames]

Why is it that when BPD hires several handwriting experts, CDE's to be exact, and NONE of them officially state PR as the author, is that not bad news for RDI? It seems to me that is a major failure, a huge loss, in the whole RDI argument. How can you say its 'not really' bad news?

Do you just say stuff?

You are the one that believes that a couple of intruders came into the Ramsey home, intending to kidnap JB, for the purpose of taking her to another country, and marrying her off, when she reached the marrying age, of that country...whatever age THAT is. They fed her a little bit of pineapple, to keep her from getting hungry on the trip OUT of the country. BUT...then they realized that she was a fake blonde...and really didn't have BLUE eyes afterall, so they decided to kill her instead. And you asked ME if I just say stuff???

 

[Ames]

Showing my ignorance here but is it common for handwriting experts to say categorically and without a margin of error that someone wrote something? I honestly thought they gave opinions and impressions but never a categoric 'yes' or 'no.' Is a categoric 'yes' or 'no' admissible in court as scientific evidence? Also, is there a set of rules and principles and a system for peer review of scholarship? I know almost nothing about this subject.

Just wondering, ty.

And lets not forget that Patsy scored 4.5 on a scale of 5....5 being definately didn't write the note. So there is a margin of error there. She did NOT score a perfect 5...which she would have...if it was proven WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that she was NOT the author. It was hard for the handwriting experts, because the RN was written with a sharpie, and the ink bled.

 

[ziggy]

This is why I believe that John helped her write that RN. I have never thought that she did it on her own.

Ah…but too far-fetched for me, given no evidence to support it. In order to believe that, you have to concoct a back story to support it. That’s mere speculation. That is my problem with the RDI theorists. They rely on this speculation of how the story goes in order to explain why they “think” what they do. I doubt they teach that as a satisfactory investigative technique. Just sayin.

 

[voynich]

You are the one that believes that a couple of intruders came into the Ramsey home, intending to kidnap JB, for the purpose of taking her to another country, and marrying her off, when she reached the marrying age, of that country...whatever age THAT is. They fed her a little bit of pineapple, to keep her from getting hungry on the trip OUT of the country. BUT...then they realized that she was a fake blonde...and really didn't have BLUE eyes afterall, so they decided to kill her instead. And you asked ME if I just say stuff???

JB a fake blond and non-blue eyes really?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You are the one that believes that a couple of intruders came into the Ramsey home, intending to kidnap JB, for the purpose of taking her to another country, and marrying her off, when she reached the marrying age, of that country...whatever age THAT is. They fed her a little bit of pineapple, to keep her from getting hungry on the trip OUT of the country. BUT...then they realized that she was a fake blonde...and really didn't have BLUE eyes afterall, so they decided to kill her instead. And you asked ME if I just say stuff???

Seems far fetch to me too. Maybe she screamed, so they killed her thinking their kidnapping had been compromised.

On the other hand...

"Late last month, a Saudi judge refused to annul the marriage of an 8-year-old girl to a 47-year-old man.

The judge, Sheikh Habib Abdallah al-Habib, rejected a petition from the girl's mother, whose lawyer said the marriage was arranged by her father to settle a debt with "a close friend." The judge required the girl's husband to sign a pledge that he would not have sex with her until she reaches puberty."

 

[BBB167893]

Handwriting experts won't 'officially' say that PR wrote the note, because...

they're afraid?
money?
political infighting?

Quite possibly ALL of those reasons.

But 'unofficially' they say she wrote it. Hmm... Is this what you think??

One of them, anyway. (The one who did the most extensive analysis.)

When zero out of five CDE's refuse to officially state that PR wrote the note is more than just a strikeout. Its a TKO.

Only a person unaware of the ins and outs of what goes on "behind the scenes" in document examination would say that.

What they say unofficially becomes all the more irrelevant if it differs from the official view.

Well, Ubowski's doesn't really differ from his official view.

If there is a difference between official and unofficial views, it casts doubt on professionalism.

On the contrary, it speaks very highly of their professionalism. They're not willing to go into court and say something that a defense atty. could pick apart unless they are sure.

I'd read Ames' post carefully were I you.