JR lies right off the bat...

[Albert18]

I was talking in general terms.

The IDI's hear about DNA and so that DNA is used to support the intruder theory. No serious thinking is done, the DNA just becomes a straw to clutch.

That is what I was saying about John's shirt fibers. Don't let those fibers become a straw to clutch to support John's involvement. John's behavior is more important than his fibers.

 

[DeeDee249]

As far as the abuse occuring outside the house...possible, but not probable. I have seen statements referring to the fact that access to a child of this age is limited- kids that age are not usually somewhere without a parent. I know they can be at a friends' home- and abuse can and does occur in a situation like that. But JBR was a bright, bold child. I can't see her not telling her parents. Or at least refusing to be with a particular person.

 

[Ames]

As far as the abuse occuring outside the house...possible, but not probable. I have seen statements referring to the fact that access to a child of this age is limited- kids that age are not usually somewhere without a parent. I know they can be at a friends' home- and abuse can and does occur in a situation like that. But JBR was a bright, bold child. I can't see her not telling her parents. Or at least refusing to be with a particular person.

Me either.

 

[JMO8778]

If this possibility can be excluded then it may be a factor in the motivation behind her death?


.

I don't rule it out,I certainly do not.
The only thing about that is that she may not have been killed in order to silence her...what if PR came upon JR molesting her and became angry,lashing out at her for it,instead of JR,as she should have?That doesn't mean her murder occured in JR's presence though...he could have went on to bed and PR lashed out at her later.I know parents can kill over toilet rage/soiling issues,but..with all the signs of possible abuse going on,those shouldn't be ignored,they should be taken into consideration and factored in with the evidence if that could be considered a possible motive for her death.Of course if she was corporally cleaned,that should be taken into consideration as well...although I don't think JB's physical findings can prove if it's one or both that was being done to her.
The only analogy I can think of right now is that it's like a potato with sprouts growing out of it...it's very hard to ignore the sprouts when you look at the potato.(the sprouts being the signs of sexual abuse).And they shouldn't be ignored if they can be part of a possible motive for her murder.

 

[Dru]

As far as the abuse occuring outside the house...possible, but not probable. I have seen statements referring to the fact that access to a child of this age is limited- kids that age are not usually somewhere without a parent. I know they can be at a friends' home- and abuse can and does occur in a situation like that. But JBR was a bright, bold child. I can't see her not telling her parents. Or at least refusing to be with a particular person.

I hate to bring this up yet again, but consider this woman:

http://www.missamericabyday.com/speaking.html

Marilyn Van Derbur was a 'pageant child,' a bright, outgoing, personable little girl, a warm, confident young woman who became Miss America.

And her father sexually violated her from the time she was five until she moved out of the house at age 18.

It CAN happen. It DOES happen.

And even a bright, smiling, vivacious little girl like JBR can be hiding that kind of terrible secret.

 

[Dru]

I should not talk on the phone and post at the same time.:blushing:

What I meant was, we can't rule out abuse just because JBR never (apparently) told a parent, whether the parent or someone else was abusing her.

 

[DeeDee249]

Point taken. Sad, but true. But, the former Miss America was abused by a parent. Someone she couldn't easily avoid as he lived in the home, especially in her younger days.
This makes a good argument for why JBR never told anyone IF the abuser was a parent.
But a comment was made about the abuse possibly occurring outside the home. In that case, JBR had much less of a reason to remain silent. She could have at least balked at being in the person's company even if she didn't say why.

 

[Ames]

Point taken. Sad, but true. But, the former Miss America was abused by a parent. Someone she couldn't easily avoid as he lived in the home, especially in her younger days.
This makes a good argument for why JBR never told anyone IF the abuser was a parent.
But a comment was made about the abuse possibly occurring outside the home. In that case, JBR had much less of a reason to remain silent. She could have at least balked at being in the person's company even if she didn't say why.

I work with a girl that was molested at age four, by her cousin...(who did not live in the house with her)...she never told her mom or dad...because the cousin threatened her....BUT....she said that she told her parents that she never wanted to go back over to his house again, or be in the same room with him...and they put 2 and 2 together and figured out what was happening to her. So, you are right...she would have balked at being in that person's company.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't rule it out,I certainly do not.
The only thing about that is that she may not have been killed in order to silence her...what if PR came upon JR molesting her and became angry,lashing out at her for it,instead of JR,as she should have?That doesn't mean her murder occured in JR's presence though...he could have went on to bed and PR lashed out at her later.I know parents can kill over toilet rage/soiling issues,but..with all the signs of possible abuse going on,those shouldn't be ignored,they should be taken into consideration and factored in with the evidence if that could be considered a possible motive for her death.Of course if she was corporally cleaned,that should be taken into consideration as well...although I don't think JB's physical findings can prove if it's one or both that was being done to her.
The only analogy I can think of right now is that it's like a potato with sprouts growing out of it...it's very hard to ignore the sprouts when you look at the potato.(the sprouts being the signs of sexual abuse).And they shouldn't be ignored if they can be part of a possible motive for her murder.

JMO8778,

Of course if she was corporally cleaned,that should be taken into consideration as well.

That was one of many theories put forward by Steve Thomas to explain JonBenet's injuries, for which there was no evidence, another of his theories, based on incest, had a lot of support and some evidence. Just how does corporal punishment explain away an eroded hymen?

what if PR came upon JR molesting her and became angry,lashing out at her for it,instead of JR,as she should have?

Why should Patsy hit JonBenet, of all the possibilities this seems the least probable, even as an accident?

I know parents can kill over toilet rage/soiling issues

This is a credible theory but falls down in the area of staging, whilst removing her size-6 underwear, her urine-soaked were left on her despite multiple opportunies to remove them, and her soiled underwear were left on display in her bathroom.

Some other kind of genuine accident is also ruled out due to the lack of medical assistance offered to JonBenet.

If all that occurred was an unintentional accident that resulted in JonBenet's head injury, then why is all the complex staging required, all that needed to be said was she fell off her bed, fell in the bath etc? JonBenet would be dead and unable to talk.

So what is the staging attempting to hide, it cannot be her head injury since that was invisible?

Did Patsy engineer a sexual assault scenario, only to have this vetoed by John who recognized this might backfire upon himself?

A PDI because JonBenet was wetting the bed, reasonable as it seems, is contradicted by the forensic evidence.

A PDI because of corporal punishment runs into similar difficulties, not least might be would a mother revealing she punished her daughter for wetting the bed be that heinous?

A PDI needs a stronger more credible theory, one that includes both her and John, since he patently assisted in some of the staging, probably even revising some of it.

The only one I can think of where both may play a part is one from sexual abuse, without the evidence of prior abuse this might be a non-starter, but then if you add in her pageant activities, her provocative poses, wearing of makeup, and lipstick for photo shoots, then you can see a picture developing of Patsy actively sexualising JonBenet? This is JonBenet's public profile, imagine what her private one may incorporate?

.

 

[Toltec]

She fell and caused an eight inch fracture on her skull.....

 

[UKGuy]

She fell and caused an eight inch fracture on her skull.....

Toltec,

Well it was an accident, she was playing around, she slipped in the bath, or she was jumping up and down on her bed, then fell off hitting her head full on the floor?

Its difficult to justify an accident, but if it had occurred, then a little elaboration might be difficult to disprove, or disbelief, but a staged murder scene, that is another ball game?


.

 

[Ames]

She fell and caused an eight inch fracture on her skull.....

If she fell, say...down a flight of stairs...or while jumping on the bed, or getting out of the bath tub, then IMO...the Ramsey's would have called 911. The reason that they didn't, and staged a crime scene instead, is because Patsy was the reason for JB's head wound, I believe that she was shoved into the side of the tub. Maybe not intentionally....but out of rage.

 

[DeeDee249]

I would think a 6-year old child weighing about 45 lbs would not knock out a chunk of her skull just from falling into the edge of a tub or sink. Even falling into a faucet wouldn't do it. She'd have to fall from a considerable height. And I don't think it could happen by being shaken or slammed either. Could any of those things cause a skull fracure? Certainly. But to dislodge a piece that size? I don't think so. I think that could only have happened by an adult bashing her hard with something like a bat, golf club, or heavy flashlight. I think she was hit in a knee-jerk reaction to silence her QUICKLY after her scream.

 

[Ames]

I would think a 6-year old child weighing about 45 lbs would not knock out a chunk of her skull just from falling into the edge of a tub or sink. Even falling into a faucet wouldn't do it. She'd have to fall from a considerable height. And I don't think it could happen by being shaken or slammed either. Could any of those things cause a skull fracure? Certainly. But to dislodge a piece that size? I don't think so. I think that could only have happened by an adult bashing her hard with something like a bat, golf club, or heavy flashlight. I think she was hit in a knee-jerk reaction to silence her QUICKLY after her scream.

This case just drives me INSANE!! :crazy:

 

[DeeDee249]

Me, too! And probably every one else here!

 

[Ames]

Me, too! And probably every one else here!

I guess we all can speculate...until the cows come home...how JB got that fracture. BUT...imo...no matter how she got it...I believe that it was inflicted by one of the Ramsey's....Patsy. I believe that it was done out of rage, or else she would have called 911. So, that is my opinion...and I DO know THAT much. LOL

 

[JMO8778]

I would think a 6-year old child weighing about 45 lbs would not knock out a chunk of her skull just from falling into the edge of a tub or sink. Even falling into a faucet wouldn't do it. She'd have to fall from a considerable height. And I don't think it could happen by being shaken or slammed either. Could any of those things cause a skull fracure? Certainly. But to dislodge a piece that size? I don't think so. I think that could only have happened by an adult bashing her hard with something like a bat, golf club, or heavy flashlight. I think she was hit in a knee-jerk reaction to silence her QUICKLY after her scream.

so you think it occured as JR was molesting her?
the scream heard coming from the basement and JR being so insistent about wanting his golf clubs lends credence to that,IMO.

 

[JMO8778]

Toltec,

Well it was an accident, she was playing around, she slipped in the bath, or she was jumping up and down on her bed, then fell off hitting her head full on the floor?

Its difficult to justify an accident, but if it had occurred, then a little elaboration might be difficult to disprove, or disbelief, but a staged murder scene, that is another ball game?


.

think about what her neck must have looked like at the time,too...red and marked from manual strangulation...ER would have known she didn't just fall..it would appear to them she was pushed or shoved off of something by someone,on purpose...no accident.

 

[UKGuy]

think about what her neck must have looked like at the time,too...red and marked from manual strangulation...ER would have known she didn't just fall..it would appear to them she was pushed or shoved off of something by someone,on purpose...no accident.

JMO8778,

Of course it was no accident, but some people refuse to consider this.

In the autopsy her lower markings from what I reckon was a manual strangulation are described as abrasions which is consistent with JonBenet being strangled either by her shirt collar or some other item clothing.


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

That was one of many theories put forward by Steve Thomas to explain JonBenet's injuries, for which there was no evidence, another of his theories, based on incest, had a lot of support and some evidence. Just how does corporal punishment explain away an eroded hymen?

if she was being douched,wouldn't that do it?if not,why not?

Why should Patsy hit JonBenet, of all the possibilities this seems the least probable, even as an accident?

like SD mentioned,the snow white syndrome.I don't discount it at all.

This is a credible theory but falls down in the area of staging, whilst removing her size-6 underwear, her urine-soaked were left on her despite multiple opportunies to remove them, and her soiled underwear were left on display in her bathroom.

I tend to agree w that,but I don't think either of them were thinking clearly,so I don't have a firm opinion on that...what if they thought just getting her to the basement and away from the scene was enough?I think it was a crazy night for them both.

Some other kind of genuine accident is also ruled out due to the lack of medical assistance offered to JonBenet.

overall,I tend to agree w that.and why stage an accident as a murder? in the person' mind who did it..I can only think of one answer for that...they knew it wouldn't hold water b/c it was no accident..she was hit with full force,and on purpose.In their mind,they felt this would be seen through if it was attempted to be staged any other way.

If all that occurred was an unintentional accident that resulted in JonBenet's head injury, then why is all the complex staging required, all that needed to be said was she fell off her bed, fell in the bath etc? JonBenet would be dead and unable to talk.

So what is the staging attempting to hide, it cannot be her head injury since that was invisible?

for one,sexual abuse,IMO.the RN doesn't say she will be raped and beheaded if they alert anyone..the sexual staging is out of place.

Did Patsy engineer a sexual assault scenario, only to have this vetoed by John who recognized this might backfire upon himself?

I think it was either that,or they at first planned to get her out of the house.when plans changed,JR attempted to cover the staged assault.

A PDI because JonBenet was wetting the bed, reasonable as it seems, is contradicted by the forensic evidence.

what if we don't have all the evidence at hand? I do think there are some things being held back..esp. things on JR,and his part in the staging (and maybe more?),esp the RN,since it points to former AG employees.Thomas talked to Merrick numerous times,and I don't see how he could have read the RN and missed that...to me,it's there...esp the end where it switches to JR's first name(implying someone who knows him on a personal basis),and the southern common sense line,fat cats,etc.Patsy didn't write it on her own..she had help...JR's help.

A PDI because of corporal punishment runs into similar difficulties, not least might be would a mother revealing she punished her daughter for wetting the bed be that heinous?

depends on how she was punished,don't you think?

A PDI needs a stronger more credible theory, one that includes both her and John, since he patently assisted in some of the staging, probably even revising some of it.

I tend to agree w that,esp the way JR behaved after she was found..he seems to have to much to hide..even to this day..he's OVER compensating(dating Beth Twitty comes to mind)...first off naming former AG employees,telling LA it *had to be an inside job,trying to get the heck out of the state only minutes after her body was found,being overly anxious to appear on CNN,(and more than once),being overly anxious to be seen at church,etc..DOES ANYONE HERE THINK HE WOULD HAVE DONE ALL THAT IF HE WAS JUST PROTECTING PATSY? B/c I don't think he would have..I think he's got something to hide..and it involves more than just staging.

The only one I can think of where both may play a part is one from sexual abuse, without the evidence of prior abuse this might be a non-starter, but then if you add in her pageant activities, her provocative poses, wearing of makeup, and lipstick for photo shoots, then you can see a picture developing of Patsy actively sexualising JonBenet? This is JonBenet's public profile, imagine what her private one may incorporate?

.

makes sense to me,and w JR known to have such a roving eye,and Patsy not interested anymore...was she attempting to keep him at home,so to speak??? Perhaps that's why Thomas bothers to mention the 'blond B**** down the st?'
that is not to say Patsy did strike the blow...it could have been she couldn't just handle it in the end.